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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: ethan on May 30, 2008, 01:00:37 PM
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I volunteer at a public access TV Studio and do sound for a few music shows. I'm trying to figure out if there's something I can do to multitrack with the Soundboard we have. We have a Yamaha MG16 (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/mixers/MG16_4E.pdf)
We have a fairly simple board that as far as I can tell doesn't provide balanced outs for each channel. What id does provide is 8 INSERT I/O jacks ( section # 2 of image below). These jacks are designed to send an unbalanced signal to an external device and input the return from these devices. They require a special cable (image below). What I'm wondering is there some way I can use these to record each channel seperately?
I assume if the cable is inserted that the board then uses the input from that IO jack. In which case I'll need to figure out how to route the signal back into the board and into the recorder. I seriously doubt simply splitting the signal would work because of different load impendances on the board and the recorder but maybe that would work. Comments? would the best approach be to have a distrobution amplifier for each channel (an expensive option)?
Anyone ever done something similar?
I guess another option would be to use outboard pre's (like the V2) which have multiple outs for each of the channels but getting ahold of 4 V2's would be a tall order too.
Interested to hear any options.
Thanks,
-e
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I volunteer at a public access TV Studio and do sound for a few music shows. I'm trying to figure out if there's something I can do to multitrack with the Soundboard we have. We have a Yamaha MG16 (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/mixers/MG16_4E.pdf)
We have a fairly simple board that as far as I can tell doesn't provide balanced outs for each channel. What id does provide is 8 INSERT I/O jacks ( section # 2 of image below). These jacks are designed to send an unbalanced signal to an external device and input the return from these devices. They require a special cable (image below). What I'm wondering is there some way I can use these to record each channel separately?
I assume if the cable is inserted that the board then uses the input from that IO jack. In which case I'll need to figure out how to route the signal back into the board and into the recorder. I seriously doubt simply splitting the signal would work because of different load impedance's on the board and the recorder but maybe that would work. Comments? would the best approach be to have a distrobution amplifier for each channel (an expensive option)?
Anyone ever done something similar?
I guess another option would be to use outboard pre's (like the V2) which have multiple outs for each of the channels but getting ahold of 4 V2's would be a tall order too.
Interested to hear any options.
Thanks,
-e
You can use the send on the insert to send a signal to the recording device. However... There are a few issues
1- You also have to mix for the room or monitors for the band correct? if so as soon as you plug an insert cable into your console it expects a return signal if there is none then the signal does not go any further then the insert send. If that is the case you will not be able to "output" your signal to your aux sends or to your faders. This creates a problem if you do not have enough channels.
2- The insert will be at -10 and might be noisy because the output is depending on your gain settings on the console.
So Yes it can be done but you might have to split the channels so you can have one for the "live mix" and one for the tape mix but the tape mix will not have any eq on it. So you will have to eq in post. This can create real problems with drums. But its doable.
You will not have any tape monitoring because you will have used all 16 channels on your board if you have to split them for your live mix.
It would make life much easier to just rent a console like a midas venice or a soundcraft L16 * both small quality * mixers for the $$$ They will rent out for about $100 per day. That would solve alot of problems but you have to make sure the "tv stations wiring is going to work with what ever console you get" because if it does not you will have a nightmare of a time with adaptors. Also you might want to check with the tv station and find out if its ok to rent a console and bring one in. They might so no.. So you have your work cut out for you, I have been here many times its not an easy place to be. If your board had more subgroups I would just record from the group outs. But unless your willing to pre group things * not a good idea * unless you have good monitoring so you make sure your group mix is together. I would stick with individual tracks.
Chris
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Plug a regular 1/4" cable into the insert until the first "click".
Plug it all the way in, then pull it back out until you're making contact with just the ring and sleeve (you'll have signal at your recorder and the channel).
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are you recording in front of a studio audience or just for tv.
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stick it in half way.
/that's what she said
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Plug a regular 1/4" cable into the insert until the first "click".
Plug it all the way in, then pull it back out until you're making contact with just the ring and sleeve (you'll have signal at your recorder and the channel).
You can do that if the ring is send but you also have to worry about losing audio if something hits one of the cables. Not a very reliable method but in a pinch it can work but again provided your ring is the send. Most consoles the ring is return the tip is send. And on that console the tip is send so this method will not work.
Chris
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are you recording in front of a studio audience or just for tv.
It's actually live tv and gets recorded. I'd just like to do some multitracking for a band that's coming up. So I have to do what I'm doing without interfering with the studio two track mix.
-e
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are you recording in front of a studio audience or just for tv.
It's actually live tv and gets recorded. I'd just like to do some multitracking for a band that's coming up. So I have to do what I'm doing without interfering with the studio two track mix.
-e
Well then your only options are to get your own console and a mic splitter you can rent them pretty cheap. Just remember to bring all your own mic cables :) The other option is simply to take a stereo out from the board and record in stereo.
Chris
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are you recording in front of a studio audience or just for tv.
It's actually live tv and gets recorded. I'd just like to do some multitracking for a band that's coming up. So I have to do what I'm doing without interfering with the studio two track mix.
-e
Well then your only options are to get your own console and a mic splitter you can rent them pretty cheap. Just remember to bring all your own mic cables :) The other option is simply to take a stereo out from the board and record in stereo.
Chris
I already take one of the stereo outs and pass it to my AD1K > DA-P1 with pretty good results. I was just hoping to try to get more.
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I think i have a bookmark at home that may help you with what you need. What multi-track device would you be using, ADATS, MOTU, Presonus, ect.?
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Ethan, since you are doing this as a regular gig at the TV studio there is another option. If you pick up a TRS snake of your own you could modify it to work for recording purposes. You do need to be handy with a soldering iron though ;D
If you connect the Tip and Ring on the insert end going into the console and then route both conductors to go to the Send on the other end of the snake it should route the signal to your recording device without interfering with the signal path on the console. I've never tried this myself so hopefully somebody will correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know this will work and you won't have to worry about the cables being bumped with the "halfway in" method described above. The only problem is that you obviously cannot use any effects during the performance since you are using the inserts.
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Ethan, since you are doing this as a regular gig at the TV studio there is another option. If you pick up a TRS snake of your own you could modify it to work for recording purposes. You do need to be handy with a soldering iron though ;D
If you connect the Tip and Ring on the insert end going into the console and then route both conductors to go to the Send on the other end of the snake it should route the signal to your recording device without interfering with the signal path on the console. I've never tried this myself so hopefully somebody will correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know this will work and you won't have to worry about the cables being bumped with the "halfway in" method described above. The only problem is that you obviously cannot use any effects during the performance since you are using the inserts.
You could do that. You could "insert" the digital recorder into the channel.. But there are a few issues
1- Latencey of the digital recorder could give you a sync problem with video.
2- You might cause a ground loop because you cant float the ground on a unbalanced signal unless both units signal ground is tied to earth. Then it would be possible but you would have to keep that cable short.
3- The recorder would have to be left in standby all the time and record when you want to capture the audio but again if your recorder ate a tape you would mute all of the channels on the console because they would not be getting a return from the record or monitor outputs.
Chris
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I think i have a bookmark at home that may help you with what you need. What multi-track device would you be using, ADATS, MOTU, Presonus, ect.?
Actually I was going to sync my 2 AD1K's with an Edirol R4 for 8 channels.
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small splitter snake, midas venice, hd24.
problem solved.
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small splitter snake, midas venice, hd24.
problem solved.
Man I cant believe you forgot the Meyer HD-1's ;D
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HOSA makes some cables that have the ring connected to the tip and can be snuggly secured into insert jacks. They are called Direct Out Cables (model DOC 106). While they do create the slightest bit of impetence (you'll want to set up your house mix with them inserted) they work just fine.
tim
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Thanks all!
+t's all around.
I'll let ya'll know what I come up with.
-e
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You know, it's when I read threads like this that I realize a.) how little I know, and b.) what an amazing resource this board is! Thanks for contributing, contributors, +t fest!!
Mike