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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: masoncool on July 04, 2008, 03:17:37 PM
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I'm looking to get better sound recordings. I've heard some really good recordings from Bit Torrent downloads from some of the same shows I recorded myself and it bums me out that I like other peoples recordings over my own.
I'm using SP-CMC-9 Premium Slimline Cardiods, Slimline Premium Battery Filter Module SP-SPSB-2 usually set to 888Hz Bass Roll-off because I record shows with booming bass in arenas running to a Sony PCM-D50. I need to Stealth record because I go to see Major acts.
Some of the recordings I've heard online had great Stereo sound, but mine sound sort of Mono of the band, but nice stereo of audience applause. Could this be because my Mics are considered Binaural or Unidirectional? Should I be using the Omnidirectional SP-CMC-8 instead?? But I was worried about picking up too much audience noise around me.
Also, before I got the D50, I used the same Mic setup with a PCM-d100 Dat Walkman for the past 10 years. I know, surprisingly it still works! Maybe it's just me, but my DAT 48k recordings seem to sound better than my recent 96k/24bit recordings I've made with the D50. Is it possible my Mics don't have the specs to make good 96k/24bit recordings and make better 48k recordings because of the Mics specs?
Any help or tips would be great! Thank YOu.
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but mine sound sort of Mono of the band, but nice stereo of audience applause.
get closer to the stage. The 3 "R's" of field recording are "location, location, location."
my $0.02
:)
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I'm looking to get better sound recordings. I've heard some really good recordings from Bit Torrent downloads from some of the same shows I recorded myself and it bums me out that I like other peoples recordings over my own.
I'm using SP-CMC-9 Premium Slimline Cardiods, Slimline Premium Battery Filter Module SP-SPSB-2 usually set to 888Hz Bass Roll-off because I record shows with booming bass in arenas running to a Sony PCM-D50. I need to Stealth record because I go to see Major acts.
Some of the recordings I've heard online had great Stereo sound, but mine sound sort of Mono of the band, but nice stereo of audience applause. Could this be because my Mics are considered Binaural or Unidirectional? Should I be using the Omnidirectional SP-CMC-8 instead?? But I was worried about picking up too much audience noise around me.
Also, before I got the D50, I used the same Mic setup with a PCM-d100 Dat Walkman for the past 10 years. I know, surprisingly it still works! Maybe it's just me, but my DAT 48k recordings seem to sound better than my recent 96k/24bit recordings I've made with the D50. Is it possible my Mics don't have the specs to make good 96k/24bit recordings and make better 48k recordings because of the Mics specs?
Any help or tips would be great! Thank YOu.
Here is a hint.. Don't set your bass roll off to 888Hz :) That's the first hint. Your bass roll off does not eliminate distortion it just brings the level of the low end down to a point where you dont hear it as much.. If you are having real distortion issues I can do a mod to your mic that will increase the max spl you can record at and eliminate your distortion issues. Alot of people think that setting the HPF that high eliminates distortion.. It does not.. Why because the source of distortion is not after the mic. Its the mic it self.
Chris
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I'm looking to get better sound recordings. I've heard some really good recordings from Bit Torrent downloads from some of the same shows I recorded myself and it bums me out that I like other peoples recordings over my own.
don't let it 'bum you out'. it's not a contest. if you feel like you blew it, just be glad that someone else was there to capture it.
also: most BT sites have a private message function...if you like someone else's recording over your own, PM them and tell them that you like his/her recording better than yours - ask them where they were in the venue, what kind of gear he was using, etc. (if it's not in the text info, obviously).
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We are all looking for better sound recordings, so you aren't alone!
In your case:
- I agree with Chris on the 888hz as being too high. Cards seldom need rolloff at all, omnis do. If you want some, try 80hz.
- Where you are in the crowd, and how you point your mics is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. Since you have cardioid (directional) mics, you can't just have them pointing random directions. They need to be pointed forward and preferable out at something like 90 degrees with respect to each other (45 off from front). This is where your stereo image comes from. IMO stealth tapes seldom have good stereo image anyway, because hidden mics are seldom optimum. Keep in mind that most shows now seem to have a pretty mono mix... same things coming out of both stacks, and there's nothing you can do to fix that.
- Recording at 96khz doesn't change the way it sounds much. A high bit rate just records whatever signal you get with higher resolution. It can't improve the signal.
- With mics > battery box > recorder, your recorder provides preamp and A/D converter. If you prefer the sound of your old D100 to the new D50, that's a legitimate preference, but that should be a relatively subtle difference.
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masoncool, if your "888 Hz" wasn't a typo, then it seems very strange that you would roll off at such a high frequency, and I wonder why you considered something so drastic to be acceptable at all, let alone necessary.
I also agree with other people here that the P.A. mix at many shows is mono to begin with, so there's no reason to expect a stereo effect anything like what you'd hear on a commercial recording.
Cardioid isn't a strongly directional microphone pattern--it's basically a big old blob with a piece missing in the back. Even if you were recording a pure, acoustic performance with no amplification, for loudspeaker playback there isn't much of a stereo effect with two cardioids that are "coincident" or "X/Y," particularly given the overly narrow angles that some people think they ought to use (e.g. 90 degrees).
--best regards
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I wonder why you considered something so drastic to be acceptable at all, let alone necessary.
[...]
Even if you were recording a pure, acoustic performance with no amplification, for loudspeaker playback there isn't much of a stereo effect with two cardioids that are "coincident" or "X/Y," particularly given the overly narrow angles that some people think they ought to use (e.g. 90 degrees).
I love it when smart people answer questions. :)
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I'm looking to get better sound recordings. I've heard some really good recordings from Bit Torrent downloads from some of the same shows I recorded myself and it bums me out that I like other peoples recordings over my own.
I agree with the sentiment that location is the most important factor given that you are using decent equipment. I've had dramatically different recordings based on where I was standing in a given venue, and when I found the "sweet spot" for my particular setup, I found the results to be significantly better sounding. So I don't think your equipment is an issue, although if you do have distortion issues when taping high-SPL concerts, you should get Chris Church's 4.7k mod to your AT mics. After you find the best locations to tape from, the next step would be to get better mics. It's quite possible, depending on security at the venue of course, to stealth higher quality but larger mics. I stealth Neumann km184s in a hat and it does work and does make a difference, even though location is probably the more significant factor in your recording's sonic qualities. Just keep trying till you get it like you want it. 8)
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A) there is a better method to power your mics,which will eliminate any clipping
B) you probably don't have the "cards" setup the way the need to be
C) you probably are not in the optimum location to record from.
-run those AT mics with a 3wire power supply.
-the mics need to be pointing DIRECTLY at the sound source,not pointing down,not backwards,ect.
-you should be directly in front of one of the stacks or triangulated from both of them.
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-and for the love of all that is holy,turn that R/O off.
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-and for the love of all that is holy,turn that R/O off.
'nuff said. Couldn't agree more.
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I wonder why you considered something so drastic to be acceptable at all, let alone necessary.
[...]
Even if you were recording a pure, acoustic performance with no amplification, for loudspeaker playback there isn't much of a stereo effect with two cardioids that are "coincident" or "X/Y," particularly given the overly narrow angles that some people think they ought to use (e.g. 90 degrees).
I love it when smart people answer questions. :)
;)
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I've tried to set the battery box with no Bass Roll off and I ended up with recorded that sounded distorted because of the heavy bass. I had to process the recording through an EQ to remove the bass and it still sounded distorted somewhat.
I sort of think that sometimes, depending on my spot at the Arena shows and if I'm sort of halfway back and away from the speaker stacks hanging from the rigging and line myself up with one of the stacks, left or right side, I get a decent recording with just enough bass from the drums and good clear vocals.
My EQ on my home sound system I use to listen to the recordings on is pretty much already set to add extra bass, that might be why some of these recordings sound fine with the Bass Roll off setting I have on the battery box. I only occasionally need to add more Bass using the EQ when the Roll off took off too much bass on the recording.
Basically what I'm saying, I'm not sure why my Roll off seemed to make some of you think I was like Crazy or something?
Maybe some of you would like to take a listen and let me know if I'm being to critical. I have some MP3 samples ready to email to anyone who thinks my biggest problem is the Roll-off. Cause I have some MP3s of a bad recording with no roll-off and I think a decent recording with the roll-off. anyone who wants to take a listen and help me send me an email at shadowbill@hotmail.com. maybe I'm being too picky, because my Springsteen and Tori Amos recordings sound good, but Green Day didn't come out so good.
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I've tried to set the battery box with no Bass Roll off and I ended up with recorded that sounded distorted because of the heavy bass. I had to process the recording through an EQ to remove the bass and it still sounded distorted somewhat.
I sort of think that sometimes, depending on my spot at the Arena shows and if I'm sort of halfway back and away from the speaker stacks hanging from the rigging and line myself up with one of the stacks, left or right side, I get a decent recording with just enough bass from the drums and good clear vocals.
My EQ on my home sound system I use to listen to the recordings on is pretty much already set to add extra bass, that might be why some of these recordings sound fine with the Bass Roll off setting I have on the battery box. I only occasionally need to add more Bass using the EQ when the Roll off took off too much bass on the recording.
Basically what I'm saying, I'm not sure why my Roll off seemed to make some of you think I was like Crazy or something?
Maybe some of you would like to take a listen and let me know if I'm being to critical. I have some MP3 samples ready to email to anyone who thinks my biggest problem is the Roll-off. Cause I have some MP3s of a bad recording with no roll-off and I think a decent recording with the roll-off. anyone who wants to take a listen and help me send me an email at shadowbill@hotmail.com. maybe I'm being too picky, because my Springsteen and Tori Amos recordings sound good, but Green Day didn't come out so good.
In audio I would never use 850 Hz as a HPF unless I wanted it to sound like an am radio. Some people think that simply putting a HPF on a mic after the fact not at the capsule end :) Like most pro mics do for example AKG 414 and Shure SM81. Applying the HPF after the fact does not eliminate the distortion it just masks it but reducing the bass where most of the distortion is taking place. The end result is AM radio sounding recordings. The real issue is the fact that your mics are cacking out at loud SPL levels simply because they cant handle it.
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Have your mics 4.7k-low-sens-modded and use 16Hz as roll-off-setting, which means NO ROLL-OFF at all.
I´m sure Chris Church will do the 4.7k-low-sens-mod for you.
;)