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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Manuell on July 12, 2008, 05:27:24 PM
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Hello,
I want to buy a fieldrecorder mostly for recording concerts and atmosphere. I use the beyerdynamic mce 86 and the mce 72.
Which one would you prefer? the edirol r-44 or the fostex fr2-le?
Manuel
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you will find *very* few people who have experiences with both of those units, so for the most part you will find those chiming in with experiences with either just the r44 or the fr2le.. since that is the case, I would spend my time reading the opinions of these units singularly on this board AND listening to recordings done with both and decide for yourself. If you have a need for 4 channels, the r44 is obviously your choice.. If you see yourself only recording two channels, then I would consider the fr2le seriously due to its wonderful powering option AND the fact that it sounds very good as a stock *all in one* unit.
I hope this helps..
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you will find *very* few people who have experiences with both of those units, so for the most part you will find those chiming in with experiences with either just the r44 or the fr2le.. since that is the case, I would spend my time reading the opinions of these units singularly on this board AND listening to recordings done with both and decide for yourself. If you have a need for 4 channels, the r44 is obviously your choice.. If you see yourself only recording two channels, then I would consider the fr2le seriously due to its wonderful powering option AND the fact that it sounds very good as a stock *all in one* unit.
I hope this helps..
I agree w/ all said depending on how many channels ya need and I will add size to the decision. R44 will take up more space and needs a good size bag.
Peace
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Thank you.
I think the edirol r-44 is the more professional way to go and I think sometimes it could be better to have 4 channels. For a concert I can get a two channel signal from a mixer and two more channels for mics for the audience. I think I will test both and then I make my decission or is there any other gear under 1000,- with xlr and portable? But I don't think that I would feel comfortable with a zoom H4.
Manuel
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you will find *very* few people who have experiences with both of those units, so for the most part you will find those chiming in with experiences with either just the r44 or the fr2le.. since that is the case, I would spend my time reading the opinions of these units singularly on this board AND listening to recordings done with both and decide for yourself. If you have a need for 4 channels, the r44 is obviously your choice.. If you see yourself only recording two channels, then I would consider the fr2le seriously due to its wonderful powering option AND the fact that it sounds very good as a stock *all in one* unit.
I hope this helps..
I agree w/ all said depending on how many channels ya need and I will add size to the decision. R44 will take up more space and needs a good size bag.
Peace
I'm not all that sure a fr2le is all that much smaller. The R44 is pretty darn small.
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There were some side by side pix on the main R-44 thread recently.
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Credit Colin Liston for the photos
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1419702.html#msg1419702
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you will find *very* few people who have experiences with both of those units, so for the most part you will find those chiming in with experiences with either just the r44 or the fr2le.. since that is the case, I would spend my time reading the opinions of these units singularly on this board AND listening to recordings done with both and decide for yourself. If you have a need for 4 channels, the r44 is obviously your choice.. If you see yourself only recording two channels, then I would consider the fr2le seriously due to its wonderful powering option AND the fact that it sounds very good as a stock *all in one* unit.
I hope this helps..
I agree w/ all said depending on how many channels ya need and I will add size to the decision. R44 will take up more space and needs a good size bag.
Peace
I'm not all that sure a fr2le is all that much smaller. The R44 is pretty darn small.
Is the r44 smaller then the r4? If so I did not know that and assumed the cf card to HD was the only big difference.
Peace
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As someone who's owned both
you will find *very* few people who have experiences with both of those units, so for the most part you will find those chiming in with experiences with either just the r44 or the fr2le.. since that is the case, I would spend my time reading the opinions of these units singularly on this board AND listening to recordings done with both and decide for yourself. If you have a need for 4 channels, the r44 is obviously your choice.. If you see yourself only recording two channels, then I would consider the fr2le seriously due to its wonderful powering option AND the fact that it sounds very good as a stock *all in one* unit.
I hope this helps..
I agree w/ all said depending on how many channels ya need and I will add size to the decision. R44 will take up more space and needs a good size bag.
Peace
I'm not all that sure a fr2le is all that much smaller. The R44 is pretty darn small.
Is the r44 smaller then the r4? If so I did not know that and assumed the cf card to HD was the only big difference.
Peace
As someone who's owned both, it's WAY SMALLER.
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I like my r44 a lot.
But then again it is my first 24bit recorder.
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is there any other gear under 1000,- with xlr and portable? But I don't think that I would feel comfortable with a zoom H4.
Manuel
The Tascam HD-P2 is under a grand (I think around $800), has XLR inputs (with phantom power, if needed), and definitely portable. a little larger than the Fostex FR2-LE, but probably smaller than the Edirol R-44. If you're not committed to 4 channels, definitely look at the HD-P2 in addition to the R-44
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for a size comparison of the R4, R9 and R44, see the first pic in this thread
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106174.0.html
Without having seen one, I was under the impression the HD-P2 was roughly the size of an R4 or Fostex FR2 which would make it much bigger than the R44 or FR2LE
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as a former owner of a Tascam hd-p2 and a current owner of an edirol r-44, the r-44 is definitly smaller.
The r-44 is not the r-4. It is a completely different beast. The lack of the hd is just a minor difference. The r-44 is a much better design, with bit perfect digi input allowing recording of 2 channels digital and 2 analog at the same time or 4 phantom powered analog at the same time. Oh, did I mention it sounds great?
/fluffing out
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So you like the R-44 more than the Tascam? ;D
Manuel
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Without having seen one, I was under the impression the HD-P2 was roughly the size of an R4 or Fostex FR2 which would make it much bigger than the R44 or FR2LE
as a former owner of a Tascam hd-p2 and a current owner of an edirol r-44, the r-44 is definitly smaller.
For reference, here are the dimensions of all the recorders beign discussed:
(width x depth x thickness)
Edirol R4
9.5" x 8.6" x 3.1"
Edirol R44
6.2" x 7.2" x 2.4"
Tascam HD-P2
9.6" x 7.4" x 2.4"
Fostex FR2
9.8" x 8.7" x 3.0"
Fostex FR-2LE
8.1" x 5.2" x 2.2"
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So you like the R-44 more than the Tascam? ;D
Manuel
The tascam is a mighty fine unit. There are aspects of it that I like better, mainly the larger display. However, with that stated, I have not regretted the move to the r-44 one bit. It is a fantastic unit.
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Today I went to the music store and had the edirol r-44 and the fostex fr2-le in my hands. The r-44 felt way more comfortable in my hands and it has the better display.
In my eyes seeing both together, the fostex didn't look that much smaller. The edirol looks much more professional and with its four channels I think it is the better choice.
Manuel
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imo its totally 2 vs 4
if you are not going to use or need 4 ch then its not worth the extra cash
if you are then its totally worth it
i mean we are talking 300+
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Sods law of channels -
the number of channels you need is the number of channels you've got - plus one.
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Sods law of channels -
the number of channels you need is the number of channels you've got - plus one.
Too true :( ;D
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Well, the R-44 would be a good choice if
1. You need four channels (duh!)
2. You don't need the very quiet preamp found in the FR2-LE
3. You don't mind lugging around an extra 400 g (14 oz)
4. You're OK with an external battery pack
(the FR-2LE has a great internal battery solution)
5. You have 50% more money to spend ($600 vs $900 retail)
Somebody needs to buy Oade's mod R-44 ($915) and tell
us how much the preamp is improved.
Flintstone
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The preamp is not as good as in the fr2-le?
I can get the r-44 for 650,- euro and the fr2-le for 470,- euro.
With four channels I can record the audience in stereo an also get the sound from a mixer in stereo, that's much more better for me :-)
What would you say about the rode NT-5?
I want to record rock festivals and atmosphere for film. I think two Rode NT-5 would be better than the beyerdynamic mce 72.
Manuel
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I'm not aware of any accurate comparisons online between the FR2-LE and the R-44 preamps. General consensus seems to be that the R-44 preamps are fine for music including acoustic, and the only time you might notice any noise would be at very high gains in nature recordings.
I believe some side by side comparisons between the stock R-44 and the Oade modified R-44 are in the works when a chance arises. Without side by side and/or careful before and after measurements it would be pretty hard to judge.
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"the only time you might notice any noise would be at very high gains in nature recordings..."
Or during quiet passages in music performances. Even rock bands pause between power chords sometimes.
To my ear, the R-44 has a more noticeable "tape hiss" preamp sound than the FR-2LE does. If it didn't, what
faults would Oade's mod correct?
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Hmmm that's not what I wanted to hear :-[
because I also want to record some unplugged stuff. I need to test the edirol if it is ok for me but I thought they play in the same league but maybe the difference is very small because I felt in love with the edirol ;D
Manuel
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To my ear, the R-44 has a more noticeable "tape hiss" preamp sound than the FR-2LE does.
Ah, then there is someone who has been able to compare! Were you able to use the same mics on both and make some comparison level-playing-field recordings? That would be good to know.
Even rock bands pause between power chords sometimes.
In classical concert hall recordings of chamber music where you'd expect to be running the preamps at higher gains than for a rock concert, if you are reproducing the sound at realistic levels, from my experience I would expect the noise level from the preamps to be below the noise level within the hall. For a rock recording, it would have to be a pretty awed audience to make less noise between the power chords than a classical one - at risk of sounding prejudiced! The preamps would be running at significantly lower gain. I hate to think how loud you'd have to listen to the power chords to hear any preamp noise in between with almost any recorder that wasn't downright defective.
A while back I posted a sample made up of a short bit of string quartet recorded on location crossfaded into studio silence - nobody suggested there was any problem with it. I might see if I can find it again.
Edit: - yup this was it. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1382143/topicseen.html#msg1382143 and the next post.
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This might be interesting if anyone can bother giving it a try -
I've made a 256kbs mp3 about one minute long. It starts with the R-44 string quartet fragment. Then comes some digital silence. Then comes some 'studio silence' getting louder through to the end. I'd be interested to know at what point (seconds) you are sure you can hear the studio silence.
So the way to do it is to first listen (maybe a few times) just to the short music part, and set the playback volume at a normal, realistic level. Then play through past the end of the music at that level, and note the time that you are sure you hear the noise. Ideally, report whether you first hear background sound, hum, or preamp hiss.
After people have had a chance to try it I'll reveal how much amplification was added to the noise at which point, though you could work that out with a DAW anyway. That might give some interesting evidence about practical signal vs noise audibility and what effective margin the R-44 has.
Obviously, don't watch any meters or spectral displays as your eyes will guide your ears, and don't turn up the level beyond normal.
The file is at http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/R-44%20graduated%20noise.mp3
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"the only time you might notice any noise would be at very high gains in nature recordings..."
Or during quiet passages in music performances. Even rock bands pause between power chords sometimes.
To my ear, the R-44 has a more noticeable "tape hiss" preamp sound than the FR-2LE does. If it didn't, what
faults would Oade's mod correct?
from the site...
Edirol R44 Concert upgrade rebuilds the mic preamps using high speed, low noise and very low distortion op amps that dramatically improve fine detail and clarity. Components are selected by ear to optimize detail and imaging for recording music. Improvements are also made to reduce the audible digital noise that contaminates the analog signal path with noise generated by the display.
It's not clear to me that the Oade mod improves S/N. I notice the marketing says 'using high speed, low noise and very low distortion op amps', this does not say anything about the relative noise performance since no specs are posted and it's not clear the quieter/low distortion op-amps achieve this alone. BTW I never saw/heard any digi-noise in the R44, it's superb from what I can see on that front.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1418367.html#msg1418367
I agree with OZPeter for normal performance recording, however the R44 preamps are indeed marginal for audio-magnification purposes (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1387447.html#msg1387447). The two highest gain settings are unusable for ambiance/quietude/distant quiet sources. I BTW use a MixPre + R09 and more recently an R09HR and it's excellent for any quietude work.
digifish
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BTW: I just noticed Colin seems to have both units...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1419702.html#msg1419702
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1419762.html#msg1419762
Perhaps he can be persuaded to post some examples of both units.
digifish
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BTW: I just noticed Colin seems to have both units...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1419702.html#msg1419702
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1419762.html#msg1419762
Perhaps he can be persuaded to post some examples of both units.
digifish
You are right, I do own both. I made a couple of samples of just the preamp with the gain cranked but my laptop with soundforge and cdwave isn't working so I haven't been able to trim the samples down to size. I'll see what I can do later tonight.
I have not had a chance to record any shows with the R44 yet so I can't post any samples of loud rock shows, but maybe I can set something up in front of my stereo.
Where should I post the samples? Sendspace? Any other places?
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Hi Colin,
it would be great to hear more about r-44 vs. fr2-le from you. Can you tell me which one you like more? and why? Or is it just the difference of four vs. two channels? Are you going to record a concert with the r-44 in a while?
At the moment I'm more interested in the r-44.
Manuel
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Okay, so I recorded "dead air" in my room the other night. Both recorded in 24/44.1 Using the following:
DPA 4023> Stock R44 with the preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4us28
DPA 4203 > Busman "Vintage" mod FR2-LE with preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k7ygmv
The noise you hear in the back ground is the TV going. Hopefully this test of just the preamp noise will suffice. If not I am more than open to suggestions for running other tests.
Check them out...
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Okay, so I recorded "dead air" in my room the other night. Both recorded in 24/44.1 Using the following:
DPA 4023> Stock R44 with the preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4us28
DPA 4203 > Busman "Vintage" mod FR2-LE with preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k7ygmv
The noise you hear in the back ground is the TV going. Hopefully this test of just the preamp noise will suffice. If not I am more than open to suggestions for running other tests.
Check them out...
Any reason the file size is nearly double for the fostex? Is it just a longer recording?
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Any reason the file size is nearly double for the fostex? Is it just a longer recording?
No, the Fostex is just longer. My bad I meant to trim them the same size. I think one is 30 seconds and the other is about 45.
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Hey Colin, thanks for those samples!
To get a good idea of the difference I suggest increasing the amplitude of the Edirol sample by 20dB and the Fostex by 16dB, and then they match in measured level fairly well at the lower frequencies. The difference in higher frequency noise then seems to be of the order of 4dB in favour of the Fostex. Listening to them at normal levels you'd be hard put to tell the difference, and even at the amplified levels the difference isn't huge. On the face of it I'd be inclined to the view that for nature recording (sounds unnaturally amplified) the Fostex would be best, and for music recording (sounds reproduced at authentic level) you'd not be able to tell the difference.
On a spectral display it's interesting that the TV whistle at about 16kHz is much clearer on the Fostex in the left channel but that could simply be that Colin was standing in the way during the R-44 recording!
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I've uploaded a 256kbps mp3 of the two files side by side, with the level compensation I suggested above, to here -
http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/22/1451533/Edirol%20fostex.mp3 - less than 2MB I think.
The mp3 format while not being fully representative of the originals gives a reasonable impression of the differences up to about 16kHz, after which most of us will probably be deaf anyway...
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Okay, so I recorded "dead air" in my room the other night. Both recorded in 24/44.1 Using the following:
DPA 4023> Stock R44 with the preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/f4us28
DPA 4203 > Busman "Vintage" mod FR2-LE with preamp cranked all the way
http://www.sendspace.com/file/k7ygmv
The noise you hear in the back ground is the TV going. Hopefully this test of just the preamp noise will suffice. If not I am more than open to suggestions for running other tests.
Check them out...
Great thanks Colin (+T). By 'flat-out' R44 do you mean Sensitivity at -56 dB and Level @ 12 O'Clock or was that fully right too?
Any chance of following this method so the input levels are matched...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1387447.html#msg1387447
That would be maxing which-ever recorder gave the lowest gain available then matching it with the unit that has more gain.
digifish
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The preamp is not as good as in the fr2-le?
I can get the r-44 for 650,- euro and the fr2-le for 470,- euro.
With four channels I can record the audience in stereo an also get the sound from a mixer in stereo, that's much more better for me :-)
What would you say about the rode NT-5?
I want to record rock festivals and atmosphere for film. I think two Rode NT-5 would be better than the beyerdynamic mce 72.
Manuel
Hey Manuel, if you want to record ambience for film (quiet stuff that is) the Rode NT5 will be a great choice since they're very quiet. I use 2 Oktava Mk012s, they sound great, but when I have to raise the preamp levels a lot you can hear the noise.
I'm using my R-44 for film, and you can't do it without a mixer preamp, because you want to change the levels quickly and inaudibly. However for Atmo only (stereo or surround maybe) with quiet mics (Rode! or Schoeps/Neumann if you got ze cash) you will get good results.
As for "quiet" music: In my book classical music is not quiet, rather is it very dynamic, i.e. the highest level will be quite loud, and since you don't want to change the dynamics of a classical concert while recording, you are likely to use a rather low preamp gain, so there will be no noise problems. If anybody should hear the R-44's own noise while recording a rock show you're either on drugs or there are no amps and no audience. Or both :)
So: go ahead and buy the R-44, it's unbeatable at its price! Alles klar?
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Great thanks Colin (+T). By 'flat-out' R44 do you mean Sensitivity at -56 dB and Level @ 12 O'Clock or was that fully right too?
Any chance of following this method so the input levels are matched...
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1387447.html#msg1387447
That would be maxing which-ever recorder gave the lowest gain available then matching it with the unit that has more gain.
digifish
On the fostex I had the mic sense dials all the way to the right and the main level control all the way to the right also.
If I can find a clock that isn't digital, I'll try your method later today.
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Hey sonidista,
das klingt ja super :-)
I think I will go witht the rode NT-5 and the edirol it seems to be the perfect choice for my budget.
Thanks for helping me.
Manuel
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On the fostex I had the mic sense dials all the way to the right and the main level control all the way to the right also.
If I can find a clock that isn't digital, I'll try your method later today.
Thanks for the reply, I was asking about the Edirol R44 tho :) I look forward to hearing the comparison if you can find a clock. The other way is to download this file at Freesound (http://www.freesound.org/samplesViewSingle.php?id=32937)...and play it back from your hi-fi at a low level and (fairly) close mic the speaker...
you will need to create an account to download the raw file.
digifish