Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: intpseeker on August 27, 2008, 07:09:54 AM
-
I was just reading a promo for boundary mics from b&h. Are there any applications for what we do?
-
It depends what you do.
They are excellent mics for recording in many situation - not stealth, though.
-
It depends what you do.
They are excellent mics for recording in many situation - not stealth, though.
Would I use them for recording a concert, hell no, but I use them on a daily basis for sound reinforcement at corporate meetings when there are a bunch of talking heads sitting around a conference table.
-
It depends what you do.
They are excellent mics for recording in many situation - not stealth, though.
Would I use them for recording a concert, hell no, but I use them on a daily basis for sound reinforcement at corporate meetings when there are a bunch of talking heads sitting around a conference table.
Recording a concert from the section, absolutly not. But recording from stage lip there is a strong argument to be made for boundary/pzm mics. The boundry mics reduce many reflections and give a really nice clean sound. I have found recording jazz groups (without vocals) stage lip with boundary mics is about as good as it gets.
Here is a pull with a pair of U851R boundary mics split on the stage lip. This is a jazz band in a really shitty sounding lounge with glass walls on all sides and hardwood floors. Tough room to get a nice sound in....
http://www.archive.org/details/grimace2007-10-29
(http://www.archive.org/download/grimace2007-10-29/untitled.JPG)
-
Bob Cogswell out here in the Bay Area uses pzm's to supplement his on-stage recordings. You can check out a lot of his recordings here on the LMA. (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Bob%20Cogswell%20AND%20collection%3Aetree)
-
I find boundary mounting a useful technique to control echoy ambiences and add some presence that would be laking with omnis in other cofigs, and though not usually applicable for typical stealth recording, mics mounted on a surface instead of a stand are very unobtrusive and often invisible.
It's not the usual way I use them, but I've used dpa 4060's in boundary mounted situations for concert recording with great results. I sometimes use the rubber DPA boundary mount adapters made for this purpose, but other times I just place or tape the mics to the surface (the mounts add a bit of additional boost around 10khz because of the tiny sound opening slot I suspect).
One situation had a concrete wall directly behind the soundboard and taping section at the rear of a shallow room. I taped the mics in the boundary mounts to the wall separated by about 3'. The elimination of the bounce off the rear wall plus the added clarity and slightly reduced ambient ratio due to the boundary mounting worked much better than anywhere else in that case.
They are excellent mics for recording in many situation - not stealth, though.
One scenario I use regularly, similar to what Javier mentioned, works extremely well for a jazz trio on an outside patio. We sit at a cafe table directly in front of the band and patrons pass between us and the band to enter the cafe. I treat it as a non-open taping situation even though it could be, for several reasons -elimination of setup, not wanting to draw attention to recording for both the patrons and band's sake (the band knows), and believe it or not I can get superior mic placement this way. I place the mics just above the floor in my shoes which gets closer to the band, provides nice boundary effect clarity for the the drums and especially the guitar and organ amps which are also on the floor, and 'looks though' the least shadowing portion of the people passing between us and the band - their ankles. ;)
Granted that application doesn't apply to many situations but works perfectly in this case.
-
Also for typical stand style recording I think there are some Dead & Phish tapes from years past made with the Crown SASS baffle thing (http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/sass.htm) that used Crown PZM's.. I haven't heard them though.
-
I think that is what Cogswell uses, the SASS setup.
-
Yeah, Cogswell uses the Crown SASS setup. While it uses PZM mics, the mounting (up higher) and small boundary surface (as opposed to being on a wall or the floor) makes the end result pretty different from what you'd get with standard boundary mics.
Moe's alley runs a house mix for recording that's SBD+PZM mics onstage. http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=venue%3A%22Moe%27s%20Alley%22%20pzm
-
Just to confuse things farther, there are also some SASS baffles modified to use omnis other than Crown PZMs.
-
I have made some great sounding choral group recordings using boundary pzm's and music stands as baffles.
-
Bob Cogswell out here in the Bay Area uses pzm's to supplement his on-stage recordings. You can check out a lot of his recordings here on the LMA. (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Bob%20Cogswell%20AND%20collection%3Aetree)
I'm impressed. I like what he is doing with those mics...
--Michael
-
But note, as Keith first pointed out, he's using the SASS mics IN ADDITION to another pair of run of the mill cardioids. Usually he has the SASS on stage and the cardioid pair either FOH or suspended just in front of each main PA stack.
-
find a pair of cheap Radio Shack PZM mics and read these pages:
http://www.jdbsound.com/art/art520.html
http://www.uneeda-audio.com/#pzm
I mod'd a pair of RS PZM's last year to PIP and attached a stereo 3.5mm plug
while I like the sound of them for sfx and certain ambiances
the capsules are pr0lly Panasonic WM60 equivalents so their self-noise is not great
-
I have a pair of 9 volt mod Realistic PZM mics that I recorded shows with for years. There were a bunch of guys using them around 93, 94, 95. Made some pretty good tapes with them when the conditions were right.
-
It depends what you do.
They are excellent mics for recording in many situation - not stealth, though.
Would I use them for recording a concert, hell no, but I use them on a daily basis for sound reinforcement at corporate meetings when there are a bunch of talking heads sitting around a conference table.
Recording a concert from the section, absolutly not. But recording from stage lip there is a strong argument to be made for boundary/pzm mics. The boundry mics reduce many reflections and give a really nice clean sound. I have found recording jazz groups (without vocals) stage lip with boundary mics is about as good as it gets.
Here is a pull with a pair of U851R boundary mics split on the stage lip. This is a jazz band in a really shitty sounding lounge with glass walls on all sides and hardwood floors. Tough room to get a nice sound in....
http://www.archive.org/details/grimace2007-10-29
(http://www.archive.org/download/grimace2007-10-29/untitled.JPG)
Nice!
I was thinking on-stage/stage lip rather than taping from the aud.
So those are listed as half-cardioid.?.
-
Nice!
I was thinking on-stage/stage lip rather than taping from the aud.
So those are listed as half-cardioid.?.
The U851R uses the same capsules as the AT853 / U853. So you could use half-omni, half-sub, half-card or half-hyper....
The recording I posted was with the omni capsules...
-
Nice!
I was thinking on-stage/stage lip rather than taping from the aud.
So those are listed as half-cardioid.?.
The U851R uses the same capsules as the AT853 / U853. So you could use half-omni, half-sub, half-card or half-hyper....
The recording I posted was with the omni capsules...
Hey, I bought your cardioid boundary mics.
I haven't tried the yet (GAS= gear acquisition syndrome, buy gear, don't get around to using it). But I have used the older version. I taped them on the walls, about 3' in front of each speaker. Speakers are on either side of the room, about 20' apart. This makes a very nice recording, because you get direct PA up close, then other sounds from the stage, and only a little bit of crowd noise. Highly recommended when speakers are up against the wall pointing foward.
Richard
-
Boundary layer recording requires a rigid backing surface larger than half the wavelength of the lowest frequency of interest, so SASS is definitely not a boundary layer arrangement, despite appearances. The baffles are far too small for it to count as that.
It's more like a Jecklin disk or a stereo sphere arrangement--a closely spaced pair with some acoustically opaque body in between. (In German there's a single compound word for that type of recording--Trennkörperstereophonie--that's hard to translate into less than about seven words in English.)
--best regards
-
Here is a pull with a pair of U851R boundary mics split on the stage lip. This is a jazz band in a really shitty sounding lounge with glass walls on all sides and hardwood floors. Tough room to get a nice sound in....
http://www.archive.org/details/grimace2007-10-29
Nice big sound stage and clean sound there.
Anyone else notice that the channels flip L-R at set break?
I have a single cardioid AT boundary mic in a box somewhere that is the same shape as the U851R but I'm not sure which model it is. Threw it in a big cardboard box with a bunch of other stuff the day Mars music closed their doors and was clearing everything out. I've never used it but now I'll have to pull it out and check. Too bad I only have one.
-
Would I use them for recording a concert, hell no.....
Actually, they are very good at concert recording - it depends on the concert, the acoustics, the conditions and the boundary mics you have.
Mine are the best - but *not* cheap.
I have a pair of the Neumann GFM 132 (http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=gfm132_description) ;D
(http://www.neumann.com/img/photosGraphics/Zooms/GFM132_Z.jpg)
The others suitable for quality recording are the top of the Crown PZM range.
But the cheaper boundary mics tend to be designed for PA work and I wouldn't use them for recording - the exception being the Tandy PZMs - a little noisy (but very cheap), but acceptable once modified to balanced output and 48V phantom.
-
That Neumann is purdy!
I have 16 Crown PCC's, and about a dozen AT PZM's.
They get used all the time along with Shure automixers for corporate meetings.
I have never even considered using them for recording music.
-
That Neumann is purdy!
Yup ;D and the shape minimises edge-diffraction problems - but they are almost £2,000 each (including VAT) in the UK - that must be around $3,500 in the USA(?)
I have 16 Crown PCC's, and about a dozen AT PZM's.
They get used all the time along with Shure automixers for corporate meetings.
I have never even considered using them for recording music.
I think the PZM Series (http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/mics/137203.pdf) are the best Crown mics for recording purposes - the others are for stage and PA use.
-
It's more like a Jecklin disk or a stereo sphere arrangement--a closely spaced pair with some acoustically opaque body in between. (In German there's a single compound word for that type of recording--Trennkörperstereophonie--that's hard to translate into less than about seven words in English.
And the seven words are? ;D
-
anyone else notice that the channels flip L-R at set break
that is becasue when I go outside to partake in the extra cirricular setbreak activities I bring my recorder with me. I must not have plugged the xlrs back into the same channel.
-
;D
-
Would I use them for recording a concert, hell no.....
Actually, they are very good at concert recording - it depends on the concert, the acoustics, the conditions and the boundary mics you have.
Mine are the best - but *not* cheap.
I have a pair of the Neumann GFM 132 (http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=gfm132_description) ;D
(http://www.neumann.com/img/photosGraphics/Zooms/GFM132_Z.jpg)
The others suitable for quality recording are the top of the Crown PZM range.
But the cheaper boundary mics tend to be designed for PA work and I wouldn't use them for recording - the exception being the Tandy PZMs - a little noisy (but very cheap), but acceptable once modified to balanced output and 48V phantom.
check the windscreen:
http://www.neumann.com/img/illuArea/GFM132_03_02_P.jpg
-
John Willett asked:
> And the seven words are?
Not exactly poetry--see the fourth column heading in the attached chart (from Schoeps Catalog 6, page 131).
--best regards
-
I have made some great sounding choral group recordings using boundary pzm's and music stands as baffles.
I'm intrigued by this method actually because I plan on recording a choral group next year. I was going to use MC930s in either XY or ORTF but I might use a pair of PZM mics in a split A/B configuration near the front of the group and run them out to an FR-2LE.
I've used similar methods for miking a stage for a young company production I was sound designer for at a local theatre. I actually did a post about it in a thread on stage lip miking. It's a common miking technique found in theatre circles which saves the backstage crew from having to put lavs and/or headsets on all the actors. Sometimes people do headsets to make the cast look like rock stars (i.e. Rent).
-
This thread inspired me to pick up some boundary mics. I found some on eBay. I just now ordered 2 x "Beyerdynamic MPC 65 VJ Boundary Microphone" for ~$32 with shipping (with live.com 8% discount). For that price, I'm bound to find something useful for them.
If anyone has an opinion on these, I'd love to hear it.
Here is a direct link to the "Buy it Now" auction..there are 5 left at the time of this posting.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120301222862
--Michael
-
This thread inspired me to pick up some boundary mics. I found some on eBay. I just now ordered 2 x "Beyerdynamic MPC 65 VJ Boundary Microphone" for ~$32 with shipping
I hope you like them - but they were designed for speech conference work, rather than music. And they are half cardioid.