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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: crispin on November 21, 2008, 11:18:44 AM
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I want to record classical music - mostly piano and sometimes piano + other instruments in various locations. Ideally I want a portable all-in-one apparatus and not use external microphones. I was set on the Edirol R09HR until I heard the samples of the wind instruments made by Wingfield audio :
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html
Somehow I find the base too dominant and the treble unclear... so now I start to think about the Sony PCM-D50.
But why is the Edirol so heavy in the bass - can it be that the microphones of the Edirol are set in this wide angle arrangement - while the other recorders have the normal x-y 90 degree arrangement and point more towards the instruments? Should I just not worry and reduce the bass bias by processing the recording afterwards... or should I just bite the bullet and go for the Sony?
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Don't use the built-in mics.
The most important variable of recording after the quality of the source(s) and the room it's in is the location, arrangement and type of microphones.
None of the small all-in-one recorders have especially great microphones. You will get better results from a separate single-point stereo mic (for simplicity) or two separate mics and a less expensive recorder than with the built-in mics of a more expensive recorder.
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I can not vouch for the edirol r09hd as i have never used it but i can say the PCM-D50 is really nice. Great sounding mics, pre's, headphone amp, have already made 100+ quality SFX recordings with it and have only had it a week (yea, i don't have a job right now!). Just be sure to get a windscreen. From the research I did its a step up from the r09hd but than again I have no personal experience with the unit and reviews are always subjective.
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I've owned the r09hr since Tuesday and love it. read the r09hr threads and all the reviews.
Whichever recorder you do get, you will need external mics.
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Tascam DR-1 Best internal mic recorder I have heard to date mind you I have not heard the sony yet.
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Ideally I want a portable all-in-one apparatus and not use external microphones.
Just wanted to highlight the original poster's criteria before we get 9 pages of people posting to get the R09HR but make sure you're using external mics.
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Ideally I want a portable all-in-one apparatus and not use external microphones.
Just wanted to highlight the original poster's criteria before we get 9 pages of people posting to get the R09HR but make sure you're using external mics.
so noted. ;D
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Gewwang: thanks for highlighting this point.... Getting external mikes seems to be a completely new ball park re cost.... complexity etc.. but can you or Gutbucket suggest some mics that can be easily attached to a recorder??
Church-Audio: Tascam DR1 - I have not completely crossed this one off - negative things are (a) lower max sampling speed (not sure if this is so important) (b) some reports of hiss from the mics (c) seems a higher than average number of problems (d) not sure about the special battery ...
rastasean: have you recorded any classical type music?
However back to the original point... why does the edirol recording of the wind instruments sound so heavy in the bass (the other recordings do not seem to suffer from this) ... is it due to the wide angle setting of the built in mics?
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I will second Church-Audio's recommendation for the DR-1, except that I would also note that it has quite a bit of handling noise. I have used it with the unit mounted in a koozie (one of those foam drink wraps) to keep it upright and with the mics pointed in the right direction and that works pretty doggone well. As long as the sound pressure level is not too high, this works really great. Just don't try handheld use and expect not to hear it every time you even slightly change your grip. Set the thing in a koozie and it's great - no more handling noise. The internal mics really do a good job for recording acoustic sources like pianos or acoustic guitars.
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I know this is not part of the original question, but a feature I find particularly attractive on the DR-1 is that it allows you to play back a recorded track while mixing that track with a new mic or line level input signal to record a new track. It's essentially overdubbing, but you only have one machine involved. You don't have to play back the previously recorded track on some other device in order to overdub. Since it records to a new track and not the one that you are playing back, you don't run the risk of ruining the original track just because you tried overdubbing. This would be particularly attractive to a song writer. They can demo their own stuff by overdubbing new sources, all with the same recorder/player.
As far as I know, none of the other all-in-one recorder/players offer this functionality.
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^^^
That's a cool feature I've always thought should be included in a digital recorder targeted at musicians. I used to use two walkman recording decks and a DIY cable to bounce w/overdubs from cassette to cassette and build songs a couple decades back in college. The equipment and phones fit easily in my book bag but the sound was dirt.
-opinion follows-
Chamber music benefits from relatively sensitive mics and preamp stages with clean gain and low noise levels. It's not especially loud which works in favor of a small all-in-one. But if you are trying to record symphonic music or band with big percussion you've got one of the more difficult tests of recording equipment because you also need huge amounts of dynamic range when the music goes from a few whispers of rosin to a the thunderous 70 musician climax. That's a bit more difficult to handle. Don't bother with sampling rates over 44.1 or 48k with any internal mics and mic preamps, I don't use them even with better outboard gear though I do record 24 bit files (even if I'm really only getting maybe 18 or so).
You mentioned the tonal quality of the samples you linked to above. Most of the tonal quality of the recording will come from where you place the microphone regardless of its type. As a gross over-generalization, many mics in inexpensive recorders tend to lack deep solid bass, transparent clarity of the midrange and highs and extension up top. But if anything I find they often sound more bright than bass heavy. Ugh, verbal sound descriptives..
A lot depends on what you are tying to do. Are you a performer/instructor/friend recording rehearsals? recitals? concerts with paying patrons? Do you have access and permission to put the recorder or mics where they would get the best sound or are you quietly recording from your seat, unannounced?
The older Edirol R-09s that I currently use to record both large and small scale classical (among other things) via the line-in with external mics and preamps do not have internal mic preamps that are quiet enough to get good results without external gear, but hey are great with some inexpensive Church Audio preamps and good sounding mics. The new R-09HR version reportedly has cleaner mic premps and sounds better with the internal mics. I haven't heard the Tascam's internal mics, but I trust Chris's and SparkE!'s ears and experience. I've heard neither. If you definitely need a single piece solution I'd look at the Tascam or the Sony. Or you might ask Chris Church about his mod that replaces the internal mics in the Edirol with some higher quality mics of his if he does that on the new quieter HR. The slightly larger Sony PCM-D1 supposedly has quite nice sounding mics but is priced accordingly, it's probably the best sounding all-in-one available using internal mics.
As for simple single-point mics that just plug in to the recorder, I can't make a suggestion but others here can. The advantage there is that you can use a generally much better microphone than what comes included in an all-in-one for not much more money, and it's probably easier to get it in a good location and pointed correctly. Here's an offbeat idea in that vein- I just dug out this link (http://www.performancerecordings.com/ear.html) that I came across this many years ago and remembered it because it seems to fit what I imagine are your requirements. James Boyk is pianist in residence, founder of the music lab and lecturer in music in the EE dept. at Caltech. He is somewhat of an authority when it comes to piano and recorded sound and developed a simple single piece stereo microphone for piano departments and students that was simple to use (just plug into any recorder) but designed to sound very natural. No idea what it costs or if he is still making it, but it's a smooth contoured wooden baffle with two mics and integrated preamp that can be placed on the floor or table and plugged into a recorder.
If you have a DIY streak you can also try improving the sound of the internal microphones by creating a baffle between them. Most of the small recorders use closely spaced omni mic capsules and making a baffle can improve the imaging. Check out the second post of this thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,70134.0.html) where I made a simple cardboard baffle for the R-09, later in the thread are photos of an all-in-one I made that incorporated the recorder, external preamp, external mics and more advanced hemispherical baffle all in one unit I could carry in my guitar case. Not inexpensive, but quick and easy to use and fulfilled my temporary requirement for a high-quality all-in-one.
Whoa, too many words. Hope that helps..
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Dear Gutbucket
Many thanks for your very informative words... in answer to some of your comments - the recordings that I will make I imagine that I can get permission to place the microphone in an optimal position - but prefer to just bring the device and set it up and let it go - no trailing cables etc. I want to make a good recording of amateur players in home situations and at the local conservatoire... without making it look as if it is wired up for a professional take. The wifi controller for the Edirol made this recorder an attractive option.
After listening to all the clips on the wingfield audio site... personally I find only the Sony D1, D50 and the Tascam please me as far as tone goes... but it is also very subjective. If this site did not exist so I could hear the comparisons - would I have been unhappy with any of them? I think not. However these comparisons exists and I will be getting this apparatus as a one off purchase - I do not imagine changing it for many years - although buying some mics and making something like James Boyk is completely my sort of activity. I am a do-it-yourselfer - and already had some baffles to improve the directional aspects of the Edirol in mind (however the edirol has now fallen off the list).
Many thanks again for the links - and the information
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The people who frequent this list are primarily interested in recording amplified music in concert settings. We are probably not the best group to be asking about recorders with built-in mics for piano practice sessions. On the other hand, Stephanie Wingate is a professional musician (cello) who sells recorders exactly for the purpose you have in mind. You should trust her opinion.
Where do you live? If you're near a city of reasonable size I think you could find an audio dealer who would allow you to borrow (with appropriate deposit) a couple of the recorders you like. Test them, and buy the one you like the best.
If there are no audio dealers nearby, then purchase the recorders on your short list from an internet company with a good return policy. Tell them you're interested in comparing the units, and will be returning the ones that don't make the cut. Dealers that will refund your money if a return is made within two weeks include B&H Photo Video, Sweetwater, Guitar Center, J&R Music, Adorama, Front End Audio and Same Day Music. These are all reputable companies that will understand why you need to order several machines.
Flintstone
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Pick whichever recorder sounds best to you, then I'd suggest a small stand that you can mount the recorder on and raise it to head height. The Bogen 001B is small and light stand that folds down to 19" so you can fit it in a book bag. That would make a simple, no wires 2-piece rig that would allow you to get the microphones in the recorder placed optimally. It will sound much better using the stand than just setting the recorder on a table nearby. If you are recording in homes you'll want to get the recorder in pretty close to the piano to pick-up less room sound. I'd try placing the stand right in the curve of the piano with lid raised, pointed down and into the instrument, aimed across the stings towards the bass end of the keyboard. A bigger, nice sounding room will allow you to move back a bit and benefit from the reverb and bloom of the room. Generally the larger and better sounding the room the farther you can move back and the more the recording will sound like what you probably associate with the classical piano 'sound' which is generally less 'up front' and close sounding than pop or rock style piano. In any case, using a small stand will help raise the mics and to point them properly for best results without much hassle or intimidating the talent with professional looking gear.
Best of luck, enjoy it.
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Gutbucket,
If you ARE trying to get that pop/rock piano sound, would you suggest getting it right up in the strings? I want to create a setup in which I can record piano with the R09HR's internal mics and then later dub over it, creating a vocal track from an external condenser microphone > preamp > R09HR.
Chris
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Your getting out of my area of experience. In pop multi-track recording everything has to be tracked in such a was as to be heard in the mix. Generally things are miked up close for isolation between instruments and to keep each basic element drier sounding. Close-miked multi-track recording uses completely different techniques that often rely heavily on eq, compression and artificial reverb. There's plenty of information for that on forums dedicated to home or studio recording. I suggest searching those.
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To end this story - after relistening many times to the clips on Wingfield Audio - I found I liked the Sony D1 the best - reality entered and I went for the Sony D50. A drier sound than the other recorders - but very good clarity in the treble which I think is what I want. Also the two positions of the mics should make it easier to select exactly what I want to record (I hope). The Tascam I found also very clear in the treble but I worried about this overload bug - that caused the distortion in the piano clip on the Wingfield Audio....if experts can screw up - what chance does a newbee (ie me) have? So I have run out and bought the Sony D50... actually in Geneva Switzerland - this and the Olympus LX were the only recorders available.
I have tried recording an upright piano - from the front - and from the back (pointing at the sound board) - more experimentation is needed before I make a judgement on the best position; I am looking forward to recording two or three instruments playing together.
I hope that I can find satisfaction with these internal microphones ... if not - I will consider an upgrade to external mics - but I do not expect this to happen before another year has passed.
Many thanks to the many words of wisdom that you shared here
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Please Crispin let us know the results of your recordings with Sony.....
thanks
c
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This is just the first reactions to messing about with this Sony D50 over the weekend. Recording an upright piano - I find the 'best' recorded sound is by pulling the piano away from the wall and pointing the microphones at the sound board.... For a grand piano - I would imagine that one can get good results from placing the device on the floor pointing up at the sound board ... I will try sometime.
Re the Sony D50 - this feature for slowing down or speeding up the recording but keeping the pitch... this is a disappointment - just dominated by artifacts - maybe the piano is the wrong instrument for these algorithms.
Another observation... the left hand microphone appears very sensitive to touching with a finger - while the right hand one is fairly insensitive... but looking at the recordings ... both seem to have similar gain - could the microphone capsule not be seated well?
[Edit] Today - this 'fault' seems to have disappeared - I do not know why or how - now both microphones appear equally sensitive to being touched..
Bottom line ... if one wants a well built, straightforward recorder with cardioid type microphones where the opening angle between can be varied (actually I am not sure how one creates a stereo image with the omnidirectional microphones of the edirol without building some baffles etc. Overall I am impressed with the clarity of each note and I am happy that I have this Sony... however since this is not a comparison (I do not have another recorder) I can not say if I would not be equally happy with the Edirol or Tascam.