Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: DisturbedPyro on December 29, 2008, 11:16:00 AM
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i did a trade with a guy for his master. the show i got was in flac. i tested it with traders little helper and got MPEG source with prob 95%. heres a link to a 1 min sample (flac): http://www.sendspace.com/file/fmxlze
then i analyzed the spectrum in audacity. this is what it looked like: http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spectrumhf1.jpg
so it seems this is mp3 sourced. i contacted the guy and he said it was from a minidisc and minidisc spectrums look a lot like mp3, but he swears the show is lossless. this is the exact source he claims his master is from: Mini disc Sony MZ-N710 -> Sony ECM T145
i dont know enough about minidisc to know but, is this guy pullin my leg? thanks for the help
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The only lossless MD recordings are those made on a HI-MD deck set to the PCM record mode...offhand I don't know what that exact model is, but all you have to do is see if its a HI-MD deck or not and that will be your master. Sounds like you got a master disc made off of an older lossy MD recorder, he is probably misunderstanding you and is referring to a "lineage" or something.
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I believe the only SONY MD's which are lossless are the ones with an "H" in the type, as in MZ-RH1. I have the RH1 and it records in High onto High capacity discs in PCM/WAV format which is lossless. Only the recorders recording onto HD discs can do this, the ones witht the "H" in their name.
FWIW, the RH1 is a damned fine recorder. Very good, low noise pre-amps.
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he says he recorded in LP4 mode (the highest compression option) becasue it was a festival so he wanted to get more time. so is LP4 always lossy or does it depend on what format its in? like can you record LP4 in wav and have it be lossless but also record LP4 in mp3 format and have it be lossy?
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It's lossy.
Think of it this way, any lossless recording method in .wav format is gonna record at 44.1k or 48k samples per second. That much data requires corresponding storage space. A hi-md disc can hold about 1 gig of data, which is only an hour or two of recording. Hi-MD recorders have a one-off mode that gets something like 7 hours on a single Hi-MD disc and the sound is still high quality sound, at least to the ears although maybe not when you look at it analyzed on a computer. EDIT BASED ON LATER POSTS I'm pretty sure that's one of the LP4 modes that is being spoken of.
I didn't look or listen to the links you posted, but does the source sound good? Do you have reason to believe that he's telling you the truth about the source info being direct from the master?
If the answer to both of these is 'yes', then it doesn't seem to me that there's any problem, even though TLH may have said so. Just because it's missing some expected bits on the analysis data side doesn't make it a bad recording. I've always subscribed to the concept that, if it's the best available original and if it sounds good...then it is good, but I think I may be in the minority on that point here in TS.com because lots of people will diss a lossy recording on that point alone...even if it sounds great.
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Standard ATRAC ("SP") is 292kbps, LP2 is ~132kbps, LP4 is ~66kbps.
from here...http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q58
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LP4 is ~66kbps.
Ouch.... ::)
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So far, all this is correct,
Classic MD is ATRAC, 80 min per disk at 292kbps.
HiMD is 94 min PCM or 7h30 of HiSP, 256kbps on a single 1G disk.
HiSP is comparable to old ATRAC, and both sound great IMO.
I would not recommend anything lower quality for music.
Richard
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LP4 is ~66kbps.
Ouch.... ::)
Yeah, and believe me its sounds just as bad as it looks. When I was running MD and had a home deck, the deck had LP4 and man, it sounded BAD.
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welcome to the wonderful world of trading. :)
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LP4 is ~66kbps.
Ouch.... ::)
Yeah, and believe me its sounds just as bad as it looks. When I was running MD and had a home deck, the deck had LP4 and man, it sounded BAD.
Yea, I always knew LP4 was bad but for some reason I always thought it was at least 160kbps, but 66kbps is just total crap haha.
I'm not one to really be fussed if a show that sounds great was taped in hi-sp or normal atrac. I agree that if it was recorded like that and it is the best possible source, I'll take it.
But.....why anyone would record in LP4 is just :o
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I do believe that sp4 is MONO, too, so you could easily tell by a quick look at the wav's. I also recently got an sp4 recording, that was then transferred using 44.1/16. So, it shows as stereo, but is really mono. I applied some "faux stereo" tweaks to it in Cool Edit (differential eq and boosting and also binaural efx) sounds a lot better now....
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I do believe that sp4 is MONO, too, so you could easily tell by a quick look at the wav's. I also recently got an sp4 recording, that was then transferred using 44.1/16. So, it shows as stereo, but is really mono.
Well, the ECM-T145 that was used for the MD recording is a mono mic in the first place, so unless the original taper used a pair and ran them with an Y-cable, this recording is screwed anyway. ???
And the LP4 is just sad... The original taper clearly didn't have a good understanding that ATRAC is a lossy format.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/210GMP6RJYL._SL500_AA150_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.de/Sony-ECM-T145-Mono-Mikrofon-Krawatten-Clip-schwarz/dp/B00005QBV3
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Damn, minidiscs arent so expensive that you have to run lp4 at a fest. ::) I used one for years and NEVER used the lp2 or lp4 setting.
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We know it is stupid, but joe average does not. He just thinks it is a cool way to get more time on the disc. Years ago with my MD-N1 I used to do the same thing. I just did not know any better. The guy who recorded the show is probably the same: well intentioned but wrong.
That's why we are here!!! Ta Da!! ;D Tapers of the World, Unite! We have nothing to lose but shitty recordings.
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did this happen to come from a Portugese taper, by any chance? :laugh:
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It's lossy.
Think of it this way, any lossless recording method in .wav format is gonna record at 44.1k or 48k samples per second. That much data requires corresponding storage space. A hi-md disc can hold about 1 gig of data, which is only an hour or two of recording. Hi-MD recorders have a one-off mode that gets something like 7 hours on a single Hi-MD disc and the sound is still high quality sound, at least to the ears although maybe not when you look at it analyzed on a computer. EDIT BASED ON LATER POSTS I'm pretty sure that's one of the LP4 modes that is being spoken of.
I didn't look or listen to the links you posted, but does the source sound good? Do you have reason to believe that he's telling you the truth about the source info being direct from the master?
If the answer to both of these is 'yes', then it doesn't seem to me that there's any problem, even though TLH may have said so. Just because it's missing some expected bits on the analysis data side doesn't make it a bad recording. I've always subscribed to the concept that, if it's the best available original and if it sounds good...then it is good, but I think I may be in the minority on that point here in TS.com because lots of people will diss a lossy recording on that point alone...even if it sounds great.
oh no, im not saying its a bad recording. and i do believe this is his master. im just trying to figure out if its lossless or lossy. also its the only recording from this show. so im glad to have it. im not one to really care if its in lossless or mp3 format. as long as it sounds good thats all that matters. ive heard mp3s that sound better than lossless recordings. it depends on many more factors than just what format the file is in
all i am trying to do is figure out if this show is a lossless or lossy mp3 recording so i know how i should categorize it in my list of shows. also if theres any reason for me to keep in in flac (as he gave it to me) or convert it to mp3 since its a lossy recording anyway
now i know it is lossy. so i found out what i needed to know. thanks a lot everyone :)
did this happen to come from a Portugese taper, by any chance? :laugh:
as a matter of fact...it does
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all i am trying to do is figure out if this show is a lossless or lossy mp3 recording so i know how i should categorize it in my list of shows. also if theres any reason for me to keep in in flac (as he gave it to me) or convert it to mp3 since its a lossy recording anyway
now i know it is lossy. so i found out what i needed to know. thanks a lot everyone :)
Don't convert it to mp3. At the moment, the recording you have is "lossy" only in relation to the live show itself, or in comparison to "what could have been" if it was recorded to wave.
Still, it is the full spectrum that was recorded. If you decode the flac to wave & encode to mp3, you will remove more due to the conversion. The resulting mp3 will be lossy in comparison to what you already have.
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This recording was ATRAC; lossy. Transcoding lossy to lossy is always a bad idea as each new lossy recording is throwing away more data. You can transcode lossy to lossless with no loss of data, but why make a big file out of a small file? It will not sound any better, it cannot, and it will only take up more space. 8)
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but why make a big file out of a small file?
Generally, with MD, you can't actually get the raw ATRAC data off the disc.
This has been discussed several times on here before, the concensus as I recall was that the best transfer you could do was to capture the digital/optical out from a MD player (yes, that is a real-time transfer). It obviously makes sense to convert the resulting wav file to flac.
If this is how the taper transferred the show, then be happy.
best regards,
stephen