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Gear / Technical Help => Playback Forum => Topic started by: live2496 on January 07, 2009, 10:29:22 PM

Title: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 07, 2009, 10:29:22 PM
I kind of want to get one of these, and just noticed that they play FLAC files too.

http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=572&language=en

Convenient too. Just hook up a USB drive with files on it and start playback using the remote.

Does anyone here have one?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on January 08, 2009, 12:46:05 AM
I've been thinking about picking one of these up to plug my USB drive into to watch downloaded TV shows.

FLAC playback might be enough for me to buy it.

I just wish it had a network interface so I could send files from my desktop to it.

I wonder if you could just use a network drive and hook the drive up to the WDTV via USB.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 08, 2009, 07:03:25 AM
Though it says use with a My Passport drive, it later says to add more drives via USB, so I'm guessing it will work with any USB drive. I wonder what the library/playlist interface looks like. It's $120 from Amazon.

The big minus, and the reason I wouldn't get one right now: no digital out. It's possible to split the HDMI into video + digital audio using something like this: http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=3939

There's also this, but I can't quite figure out if that's what I'd want. http://www.supermediastore.com/apogee-hdmi-4x1-hifi-switcher-spdif-coax-audio-out-v1-3-full-hd-1080p.html?WT.mc_id=shoppingELTEL-010-0159&utm_source=pcsite&utm_medium=campaign&utm_term=EL-010-0159&utm_campaign=cp_elt_shopping#description

Anyone found a less expensive solution to getting digital audio out of an HDMI signal? A simple active cable would be best.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 08, 2009, 08:06:14 AM
Quote from: MattD on January 08, 2009, 07:03:25 AM
The big minus, and the reason I wouldn't get one right now: no digital out. It's possible to split the HDMI into video + digital audio using something like this: http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=3939

it looks to me like it's got an optical output.  my question is - does it support 24/96 FLAC playback via the optical output?

edit to add:
after searching around a bit more, it definitely has an optical output.  and I just sent an email to WD asking about 24/96 playback.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: Wiggler on January 08, 2009, 08:25:05 AM
My understanding is that jitter has been a problem with audio via hdmi.
This is the reason high end audio manufactures have not embraced hdmi at this time.
If you Google hdmi audio jitter you will find information on the problems associated with audio over hdmi.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 08, 2009, 10:30:41 AM
The pinouts on hdmi are encoded, so no SPDIF is readily available. So it would take a box/chip to decode it.
http://pinouts.ru/Video/hdmi_pinout.shtml

Thanks for the tip on the jitter. Though that's not a showstopper for me. I would use it like an Apple TV. Though it if plays FLAC files thats a bonus.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 08, 2009, 06:54:09 PM
I didn't catch the Toslink - good eye, Jason. I found the manual their site and am reading through it. It appears to support playlists.

In the appendix, there's a note under the VIDEO section (pg 71 of the PDF, labeled as 68 in the manual) that states: "2. Audio sample rate must be: 8000, 11025, 12000, 16000, 22050, 24000, 32000, 44100, 48000 "

I can't tell if that applies to FLAC audio or not. Please let us know about 24/96 support! If that works and now that I see the optical out, I'd get one of these over an HTPC - a little more plug-and-play and I doubt I could come close to building something for $120.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 08, 2009, 09:12:11 PM
Under Features and Functions...

Audio/Video Interface
• HDMI interface for digital audio and high-definition video
• Composite interface (RCA, yellow/white/red) for analog AV connection
• Toslink (optical) audio for high-fidelity digital audio
• Autosource function enables the HD media player to detect and switch to a new
interface connection. For example, the HD media player automatically switches to
HD mode when it is connected through an HDMI cable.
• Video output resolution includes 480i (using the composite interface), or 480p,
576p, 720i, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p (available when using the HDMI interface)
• Stereo or multi-channel digital surround audio output
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 09, 2009, 07:58:33 AM
Quote from: MattD on January 08, 2009, 06:54:09 PM
In the appendix, there's a note under the VIDEO section (pg 71 of the PDF, labeled as 68 in the manual) that states: "2. Audio sample rate must be: 8000, 11025, 12000, 16000, 22050, 24000, 32000, 44100, 48000 "

I can't tell if that applies to FLAC audio or not. Please let us know about 24/96 support!

good catch.  I saw the PDF manual online too, but I missed that footnote about the audio sample rate.  While it is technically under the "video" section, my guess is that it applies to all audio, including FLAC.  Though, I still haven't heard back from WD.  I'll post here to confirm one way or the other after I hear back.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 09, 2009, 10:04:02 PM
From here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15274776):

Quote
I wasn't able to find anything anywhere as to whether or not the WD TV could handle FLAC files with a 24-bit, 48KHz audio resolution. I fired up a couple of test recordings that I have and it didn't blink. I'm pretty amazed since this was only recently corrected on the PCH.

That's a good start, though I can't tell if the poster was using the onboard DAC or the optical out. Does anyone on this board work at a Best Buy type of place and could test one of these units?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 10, 2009, 10:34:09 AM
I ordered one on Thursday, so when it comes in I will test some flac files and let you know here.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 10, 2009, 02:09:46 PM
Wonderful.  In addition to the 24/96 test, please share any other thoughts that you might have with us, after you get to use it for a bit.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 13, 2009, 05:30:59 PM
while I wasn't sure what kind of answer I was expecting from WD, I sure as hell wasn't expecting "we don't know"...


Quote
Dear Jason,

Thank you for contacting Western Digital Customer Service and Support.

We don't have any info on what type of sampling rates the WDTV supports with FLAC audio. When the WDTV outputs audio over SPDIF, it is PCM when unencrypted. The WDTV can operate drives that only use USB power (just like Passport). WDTV only reads metadata on MP3 and MP4 from what I've seen.

Answer Title: List of compatible media file types for the WD TV HD Media Player.
Answer Link: http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2698&p_created=1224519847

Answer Title: What files are supported for conversion of the Arcsoft MediaConverter software bundled with the WD TV HD Media Player?
Answer Link: http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2728&p_created=1225489450

Answer Title: How to find information about WDTV media files.
Answer Link: http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=2745&p_created=1227650629


Sincerely,
Paul B.
Western Digital Service and Support
http://support.wdc.com

edit to add:  my response to WD

Quote
Paul,

Thank you for your response, though I must say, I am very disappointed with the response. As you can well imagine, when a potential customer asks a specific question about one of your products, the quick "we don't know what sampling rates are supported" appears to be indicative of very poor customer service/support.

Since the S/PDIF format does not allow for any other type of output other than unencrypted PCM data, that is just basic knowledge that I had assumed we were all working from.

However, since I submitted my original question, I found the following "note" on page 68, under the VIDEO portion of the appendix:

"2. Audio sample rate must be: 8000, 11025, 12000, 16000, 22050, 24000, 32000, 44100, 48000"

That note would suggest that a sampling rate of 96kHz (96000) is NOT supported, but the manual is not clear if those sampling rates only apply to video playback or if they apply to both video AND 2-channel audio playback (i.e. FLAC files).

So, my original question remains, how does the WD TV handle 24 bit / 96 kHz FLAC files? Does it just not play them? Does it resample the audio on-the-fly to 48 kHz (as some other consumer devices do)? Or does it output the full, unaltered 24 bit / 96 kHz PCM data stream?

And please, if you do not know the answer, please find the answer before responding. Someone at Western Digital HAS to know.

Thanks,
Jason Sobel
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 15, 2009, 07:34:22 PM
Got the WD Media Player. I setup four files on a USB flash drive, 16/44 flac, 16/44 wav, 24/96 flac and 24/96 wav.
 
The WD Media Player plays them all. Both through the analog outputs and the digital output.  :)

I used PDAudio and Live2496 set to auto-detect the sampling rate while recording from the digital output.

The 44.1kHz files were played at 44.1kHz. When the 96kHz files were played, the digital output switched to 48kHz. This indicates that some resampling is being done. Perhaps it has a DSP chip onboard (?)

It's great that it plays the 96kHz files. It raises the question, though about whether or not it is resampling always. ie. when playing 44.1kHz does it resample? or actually bypass the DSP?

Next I would like to try different USB devices, like a USB hard drive and a SD card in a card reader to see what it will do.

Also, I found out from reading that it does support Dolby Digital (AC-3). But this is a pass-thru and apparently only in stereo. This seems to disagree with my previous post about features.





Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 15, 2009, 07:55:43 PM
How do you like the UI?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 15, 2009, 08:16:22 PM
It's fine. You choose what type of media file you want to play. Movies, music, or photos. You can set some preferences.
It's covered quite well in the manual.
http://www.wdc.com/en/library/um/4779-705014.pdf?wdc_lang=en (http://www.wdc.com/en/library/um/4779-705014.pdf?wdc_lang=en)

I like the convenience of having a remote.

Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 15, 2009, 09:54:54 PM
Can you explain more about how playlists work? It talks about using a playlist file (p. 32 of the PDF). Does that mean I have to create a playlist using a computer before I can play one, or is there an "on the fly" playlist/queue creation?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 15, 2009, 10:15:02 PM
It seems like you create the playlists with Winamp or iTunes, but I will dig into it further to see if you can create them on the gizmo itself.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 16, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
Gordon - thanks for the reports of the capabilities of this unit.

Quote from: live2496 on January 15, 2009, 07:34:22 PM
It's great that it plays the 96kHz files. It raises the question, though about whether or not it is resampling always. ie. when playing 44.1kHz does it resample? or actually bypass the DSP?

while it's too bad that it doesn't output a 24/96 signal, in regards to whether or not it resamples all files before digital output, it should be easy enough to record the S/PDIF signal to a new wav file (like what you were already doing with PDAudio and Live2496), and then compare the new file with the original one that was being played.  That should tell us whether or not its being resampled, right?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: JasonSobel on January 16, 2009, 10:10:06 AM
I just got this response from WD, confirming what Gordon has found with 24/96 files.

Quote
Dear Jason,

Thank you for your reply.

Only the sample rates listed are what play’s, it may play a 96khrtz file as 48khrtz.

the "samples rates listed" is the section of the VIDEO appendix that says "Audio sample rate must be: 8000, 11025, 12000, 16000, 22050, 24000, 32000, 44100, 48000".

I just sent back another question asking if all files are resampled before output, or only those with higher sample rates that aren't directly supported.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 16, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: JasonSobel on January 16, 2009, 08:08:05 AM
That should tell us whether or not its being resampled, right?

Yes. Exactly. I will setup something.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 17, 2009, 11:23:34 PM
While preparing some test files I noticed that the WD Media Player created a folder on my flash drive when I had it plugged into it. Inside are references to sqLite and the names of files that I have played. It seems that it keeps up with play history in a lightweight database. This could be how it keeps up with playlists, but I still need to research the playlist creation.

Here is a directory listing of that folder..


F:\.wd_tv>dir
 Volume in drive F has no label.

 Volume Serial Number is 440E-003D

 Directory of F:\.wd_tv

01/01/2000  12:11 AM    <DIR>          .
01/01/2000  12:11 AM    <DIR>          ..
01/01/2000  12:11 AM            94,208 wdtv.cas
01/01/2000  12:11 AM                81 wdtv.cas.md5
01/01/2000  12:25 AM             5,120 ph.db
01/01/2000  12:25 AM             3,608 ph.db-journal
               4 File(s)        103,017 bytes
               2 Dir(s)   3,126,272,000 bytes free

Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 18, 2009, 02:21:20 PM
One thing that is a negative is that there doesn't seem to be a good way to rewind to the beginning of a song. You can pause, but I don't see a way to backup to the beginning. It seems that the best way to start at the beginning is to select the previous song then go forward to the track again and then press play. I think that could be improved.

Regarding 96kHz. You can see from the screenshots that resampling is occurring. For this test I generated 40hz rectangular waves, then played the file from the WD Media Player, and then captured the output with PDAudio/Live2496.

Original 96kHz wave file...
(http://live2496.com/jpeg/wdmp_96khz_original.jpg)

Resampled 48kHz output...
(http://live2496.com/jpeg/wdmp_96khz_resampled_1.jpg)
(http://live2496.com/jpeg/wdmp_96khz_resampled_2.jpg)

Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on January 18, 2009, 04:24:24 PM
Quote from: MattD on January 15, 2009, 09:54:54 PM
Can you explain more about how playlists work? It talks about using a playlist file (p. 32 of the PDF). Does that mean I have to create a playlist using a computer before I can play one, or is there an "on the fly" playlist/queue creation?

I do not see a way to create playlists in the menu. It does support three types of playlist files.  [ PLS | M3U | WPL ]

I did see that when I connected a passport drive, it added any files to music/playlists that it found having a .wpl extension. So it adds playlist files to it's database when you connect a drive and it scans it.

So, you have to create your playlists in other software. I think I would have the playlist file in the same folder as the tracks.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: MattD on January 19, 2009, 11:11:44 AM
Thank you for the comprehensive report, Gordon. I think the lack of playlist creation is a deal-breaker for me, especially since the drive can't simultaneously be mounted as a network share. I'm not going to know what I want to play and when in advance. I'll keep my eye on the Popcorn Hour machine, but odds are I'll get a Mac Mini that does all of the above and then some at one point.

+T if they still existed.
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: tfrench on January 19, 2009, 11:34:15 AM
Good information on the Popcorn Hours in this thread....

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115355.0.html

Todd
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: tfs8271 on February 24, 2009, 10:02:35 AM
I have an old DVD that works fine for rented movies/purchased movies but it has problems with burned DVDs....  I'm not too anal about video watching, due to my older non-HD TV.

I was thinking of buying this for downloaded concert videos to watch on my TV....  Has anyone tested it for this purpose?
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: Krispy D on February 24, 2009, 10:11:29 AM
that is what I was thinking as well...  as for.. um, pirated movies...   :scared:
Title: Re: Western Digital Media Player supports FLAC files
Post by: live2496 on February 24, 2009, 12:02:39 PM
I think it will play the files that are output files from Handbrake.