Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: ae35unit on January 08, 2009, 07:58:51 PM
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Hi,
I did a good deal of taping a few years back but haven't really don't much in the last 4-5 years unfortunately. I've been thinking about getting back into the hobby but haven't been following the development of new hardware. I was hoping someone on the board could offer up some ideas or suggestions for me - hardware models, websites, etc.
My interests:
- when using my own mics, the system needs to be very portable. I had CSB's a few years ago and I'm thinking something like that.
- the ultimate aim is to get it into my macbook, it'd be great to record directly to some sort of memory card and be able to easily dump it onto my hard drive
- i'd like to be able to patch into other tapers' rigs at concerts if needed
- i'm not too concerned about being able to work with a soundboard, I've got a DA-P1 and V3 that I could use for that if I really wanted to
Really, I've found that my favorite tapes and taping experiences have been little side-stage type stuff that I just wandered into and recorded with my CSB's. It'd be great to have a setup where the mics were on a hat and I could just hit record if I happen upon something cool.
I still have a DA-P1 (nearly brand new), Lunatech V3 and a pair of DPA 4021's. That setup sounded great but tended to be such a hassle to tote around that it soured me on taping in the end. What's the value of that equipment these days? Do people even have interest in DATs anymore?
Anyway, I'd appreciate any help, pointers, etc that anyone can provide me. Thanks very much!
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Some people still run DAT, but it's fading. Most new recorders take flash cards like a digital camera, and some have hard drives. V3's and 4021's are still highly regarded.
One of the more popular recorders now is a Edirol R09 (and the newer R09HR), which is about the size of a deck of cards (and $300-$400). You could run CSBs > R09 (I run that occasionally), or you could run 4022s > V3 > analog > R09 for open taping. Copying the flash card wav file to computer is what most of us do.
If you wanted to sell your existing stuff and buy smaller stuff, here is a ballpark estimate of going price:
- 4022's... I think a pair just went for something like $2300 in the yard sale.
- V3... I paid $900 for mine used a while ago.
- DA-P1... these don't come up very often, but I suspect you would be pretty disappointed with what you would get.
Another set of boxes to look at are the Marantz PMD-660, or Fostex FR2LE which are "all in one" boxes with XLR in. You could run your 4022 > those boxes, without the V3. The Marantz is about the size of a red masonry brick, and the Fostex is a bit bigger. I can't comment on how the 4022 sound with either of those boxes... you probably want to go to archive.org and listen to some samples.
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If you're like me, carrying in a large multi-component, and often power-hungry rig doesn't make it very fun so the all-in-one mic + deck 2-piece rig is what I'd suggest.
Best combo I've designed so far is using a modified R-09HR powering + set of DSM mics.
Tech review of the 09HR deck is here: www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r09hrrev.htm)
The stealth-able 2-piece rigs with sound samples is here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83254.0/all.html (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,83254.0/all.html)
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i'd like to be able to patch into other tapers' rigs at concerts if needed
If you want analog patches, you can get those from just about any deck now, but digital patches are another story. The only small portable recorder that I know that has both digital inputs and outputs is the Sony PCM-D50, and it uses optical for both. You can get around this by purchasing a Hosa or a Fostex optical - digital converter box, but then you have to have an external battery to run it, increasing the bulk of the device. One thing that you may want to do is wait for the new Marantz PMD661 to be released which will have the more common coaxial digital inputs and outputs on it. If you want to move a size up, you may want to look at the Fostex FR2LE, which I believe has coaxial digital inputs and outputs, but is bulkier than the small handheld devices.
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i'd like to be able to patch into other tapers' rigs at concerts if needed
If you want analog patches, you can get those from just about any deck now, but digital patches are another story. The only small portable recorder that I know that has both digital inputs and outputs is the Sony PCM-D50, and it uses optical for both. You can get around this by purchasing a Hosa or a Fostex optical - digital converter box, but then you have to have an external battery to run it, increasing the bulk of the device. One thing that you may want to do is wait for the new Marantz PMD661 to be released which will have the more common coaxial digital inputs and outputs on it. If you want to move a size up, you may want to look at the Fostex FR2LE, which I believe has coaxial digital inputs and outputs, but is bulkier than the small handheld devices.
Fostex FR2LE does *not* have digital I/O.
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i'd like to be able to patch into other tapers' rigs at concerts if needed
If you want analog patches, you can get those from just about any deck now, but digital patches are another story. The only small portable recorder that I know that has both digital inputs and outputs is the Sony PCM-D50, and it uses optical for both. You can get around this by purchasing a Hosa or a Fostex optical - digital converter box, but then you have to have an external battery to run it, increasing the bulk of the device. One thing that you may want to do is wait for the new Marantz PMD661 to be released which will have the more common coaxial digital inputs and outputs on it. If you want to move a size up, you may want to look at the Fostex FR2LE, which I believe has coaxial digital inputs and outputs, but is bulkier than the small handheld devices.
Fostex FR2LE does *not* have digital I/O.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
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One thing that you may want to do is wait for the new Marantz PMD661 to be released which will have the more common coaxial digital inputs and outputs on it. If you want to move a size up, you may want to look at the Fostex FR2LE, which I believe has coaxial digital inputs and outputs, but is bulkier than the small handheld devices.
Tha new Marantz PMD-661 does have analog (XLR with phantom or 1/8" line-in) and S/PDIF inputs, but does not have a digital output.
The Fostex FR-2LE does not have any digital inputs or outputs.
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One thing that you may want to do is wait for the new Marantz PMD661 to be released which will have the more common coaxial digital inputs and outputs on it. If you want to move a size up, you may want to look at the Fostex FR2LE, which I believe has coaxial digital inputs and outputs, but is bulkier than the small handheld devices.
Tha new Marantz PMD-661 does have analog (XLR with phantom or 1/8" line-in) and S/PDIF inputs, but does not have a digital output.
The Fostex FR-2LE does not have any digital inputs or outputs.
Iriver H1xx has digi I/O (optical), but is 16-bit only. Cheap enough to have as a secondary "throw-in" recorder besides your full rig, if you know beforehand that you will take patches.
But after all, I never understood the big deal with patches? In these days of lossless and torrents, just work out a trade with the taper and have him send you his recording afterwards!
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The rig I use which can fit into a jacket pocket:
Sennheiser KE4-211-2 Hat Rig (courtesy of illconditioned) > Edirol R-09 (plug-in power)
The R-09 has an 8 gig SD card in it and can record at 24/44.1 for 8hrs 23min and it sounds amazing. There's a recording on DIME of this rig that I highly recommend listening to if you want to hear what it sounds like. If you want a better rig that sounds even better, use this:
Countryman B3 (in binaural configuration mounted on a hat) > Sony PCM-D50
Examples of this rig can be heard at www.soundmann.com
The DIME recording with my rig can be found at: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=227499
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OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
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OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Now that's what I'm waitin' for Richard. My CAFS are en route from Chris. I just taped Foreigner tonight with a set of CA-14 cards > CA Ugly > Sony PCM-D50. It sounds very nice. I will be upping to DIME in the morning for anyone interested.
Link added:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=231140
David
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OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Will be interested to hear your opinion and samples to compare with your other lav recordings. Do the CAFS roll off at the bottom a bit?
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OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Now that's what I'm waitin' for Richard. My CAFS are en route from Chris. I just taped Foreigner tonight with a set of CA-14 cards > CA Ugly > Sony PCM-D50. It sounds very nice. I will be upping to DIME in the morning for anyone interested.
Link added:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=231140
David
Plug the mics directly into the recorder (plug in power). No need for a preamp in front of the Sony!
Richard
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Hi,
I did a good deal of taping a few years back but haven't really don't much in the last 4-5 years unfortunately. I've been thinking about getting back into the hobby but haven't been following the development of new hardware. I was hoping someone on the board could offer up some ideas or suggestions for me - hardware models, websites, etc.
My interests:
- when using my own mics, the system needs to be very portable. I had CSB's a few years ago and I'm thinking something like that.
- the ultimate aim is to get it into my macbook, it'd be great to record directly to some sort of memory card and be able to easily dump it onto my hard drive
- i'd like to be able to patch into other tapers' rigs at concerts if needed
- i'm not too concerned about being able to work with a soundboard, I've got a DA-P1 and V3 that I could use for that if I really wanted to
Really, I've found that my favorite tapes and taping experiences have been little side-stage type stuff that I just wandered into and recorded with my CSB's. It'd be great to have a setup where the mics were on a hat and I could just hit record if I happen upon something cool.
I still have a DA-P1 (nearly brand new), Lunatech V3 and a pair of DPA 4021's. That setup sounded great but tended to be such a hassle to tote around that it soured me on taping in the end. What's the value of that equipment these days? Do people even have interest in DATs anymore?
Anyway, I'd appreciate any help, pointers, etc that anyone can provide me. Thanks very much!
Just get yourself a Microtrack 2 and DVD batts for the V3 and you can fit your current rig in a small bag. Other than getting a new chip for the V3 and Microtrack to work it's a quick easy fix for less than 300. If it aint broke don't fix it. Just my 0.02.
Barrett
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OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Now that's what I'm waitin' for Richard. My CAFS are en route from Chris. I just taped Foreigner tonight with a set of CA-14 cards > CA Ugly > Sony PCM-D50. It sounds very nice. I will be upping to DIME in the morning for anyone interested.
Link added:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=231140
David
Plug the mics directly into the recorder (plug in power). No need for a preamp in front of the Sony!
Richard
I am also running CA-14's into a D50, but I need the 9100 for gain. I am finding that I am running +20 on the 9100 and then using the gain on the D50 (to about "5") to get decent levels running 24/48. This would be for rock shows. I'd be a little timid to just run with plug-in power.
-
OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Now that's what I'm waitin' for Richard. My CAFS are en route from Chris. I just taped Foreigner tonight with a set of CA-14 cards > CA Ugly > Sony PCM-D50. It sounds very nice. I will be upping to DIME in the morning for anyone interested.
Link added:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=231140
David
Plug the mics directly into the recorder (plug in power). No need for a preamp in front of the Sony!
Richard
I am also running CA-14's into a D50, but I need the 9100 for gain. I am finding that I am running +20 on the 9100 and then using the gain on the D50 (to about "5") to get decent levels running 24/48. This would be for rock shows. I'd be a little timid to just run with plug-in power.
You're reading that +20 switch wrong, maybe? I think it means *attenuate* by 20.
For ambient or quiet shows put it at zero.
For rock shows put it at 20.
Both mics directly in, with plug in power on.
Richard
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Just get yourself a Microtrack 2 and DVD batts for the V3 and you can fit your current rig in a small bag. Other than getting a new chip for the V3 and Microtrack to work it's a quick easy fix for less than 300. If it aint broke don't fix it. Just my 0.02.
Barrett
Hm, interesting suggestion. I suppose the 4021's > V3 > recorder would work okay if I could figure out how to mount the 4021's to a hat or something. I have the ORTF / XY mount for the 4021's, but I've always used it on a mic stand.
My main aim is to do away with the big batteries, bags and mic stands so that I can just wander in, hit record and wander off when the mood strikes me.
So ...
- anyone have suggestions on how to mount the DPA's in a nice portable way? On a hat or something?
- I'm not familiar with the DVD battery thing, have a link or something explaining it further?
- ugh ... new chip for the V3? What's the deal there?
I guess this is what I get for not paying attention for 5 years :P
Thanks for the help guys!
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Okay, perhaps I can partially answer some of my own question here ...
It sounds like I might want a couple of those little 4060 or 4061 mics rather than my 4021's if I'm looking for a nice portable setup.
Right?
Anyone have any clever tips about mounting these mics on a hat or such?
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Okay, perhaps I can partially answer some of my own question here ...
It sounds like I might want a couple of those little 4060 or 4061 mics rather than my 4021's if I'm looking for a nice portable setup.
Right?
Anyone have any clever tips about mounting these mics on a hat or such.
As suggested by at least one moderator the discussions of stealth concealment techniques is best conducted out of public view.
-
OK, I've just got a pair of Chris Church's CAFS (tiny omnis). I haven't recorded music, yet, but ambient recordings sound great! Now this is a great rig: CAFS > SonyPCM-D50 (plug in power). Stay tuned...
Richard
Now that's what I'm waitin' for Richard. My CAFS are en route from Chris. I just taped Foreigner tonight with a set of CA-14 cards > CA Ugly > Sony PCM-D50. It sounds very nice. I will be upping to DIME in the morning for anyone interested.
Link added:
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=231140
David
Plug the mics directly into the recorder (plug in power). No need for a preamp in front of the Sony!
Richard
I am also running CA-14's into a D50, but I need the 9100 for gain. I am finding that I am running +20 on the 9100 and then using the gain on the D50 (to about "5") to get decent levels running 24/48. This would be for rock shows. I'd be a little timid to just run with plug-in power.
You're reading that +20 switch wrong, maybe? I think it means *attenuate* by 20.
For ambient or quiet shows put it at zero.
For rock shows put it at 20.
Both mics directly in, with plug in power on.
Richard
I am so use to using LINE IN going back to my Sony DAT days because running MIC IN I ran the risk and on several occasions brickwalled.
I have a local band/club rock show to attend in a couple weeks and will try MIC IN with the plug in power on, -20 on the switch and see what happens. (CA-14 > D50).
Thanks Richard.
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Okay, perhaps I can partially answer some of my own question here ...
It sounds like I might want a couple of those little 4060 or 4061 mics rather than my 4021's if I'm looking for a nice portable setup.
Right?
Anyone have any clever tips about mounting these mics on a hat or such?
I have sent you a PM regarding your 4021's / my 4061s & R09 setup.
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As suggested by at least one moderator the discussions of stealth concealment techniques is best conducted out of public view.
Sorry about that - I'm not really interested in stealth, just convenience.
Stealthing is one of the more inconvenient taping activities out there, so I've got zero interest in it. In keeping with this philosophy, I'd like to find a nice setup to avoid the need for a mic stand.
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Just get yourself a Microtrack 2 and DVD batts for the V3 and you can fit your current rig in a small bag. Other than getting a new chip for the V3 and Microtrack to work it's a quick easy fix for less than 300. If it aint broke don't fix it. Just my 0.02.
Barrett
Hm, interesting suggestion. I suppose the 4021's > V3 > recorder would work okay if I could figure out how to mount the 4021's to a hat or something. I have the ORTF / XY mount for the 4021's, but I've always used it on a mic stand.
My main aim is to do away with the big batteries, bags and mic stands so that I can just wander in, hit record and wander off when the mood strikes me.
So ...
- anyone have suggestions on how to mount the DPA's in a nice portable way? On a hat or something?
- I'm not familiar with the DVD battery thing, have a link or something explaining it further?
- ugh ... new chip for the V3? What's the deal there?
I guess this is what I get for not paying attention for 5 years :P
Thanks for the help guys!
Just use the search function, you will find that you can power the V3 off of a very small DVD Lithium Battery, you can pick these up anywhere from 25-50 a piece. You can get a custom cable from Ed at www.kindkables.com for $20. The Mictrotrack can be had for 200-250 you can get a CF card for 40. The chip swap out on the V3 is VERY easy and Grace will send you instructions and the chip for free. There was some sort of issue with older V3's and the MT2 for some reason. You could >:D with that rig I'm fairly certain, people do with more. Plus for open situations you are in a tiny all in one bag with a clamp if you want. Plus I always liked the 4021>v3 combo!
Barrett
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Stealthing is one of the more inconvenient taping activities out there, so I've got zero interest in it. In keeping with this philosophy, I'd like to find a nice setup to avoid the need for a mic stand.
Not having a stand is very inconvenient IMO. Not being able to move, go to the restroom, get drinks, sit down, talk to people or generally enjoy yourself is not convenient....
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Stealthing is one of the more inconvenient taping activities out there, so I've got zero interest in it. In keeping with this philosophy, I'd like to find a nice setup to avoid the need for a mic stand.
Maybe the OP meant that it's "inconvenient" from a moral point of view?!
Not having a stand is very inconvenient IMO. Not being able to move, go to the restroom, get drinks, sit down, talk to people or generally enjoy yourself is not convenient....
Depends where you live really. At the venues where I tape, a stand would immediately attract drunken wooks, or just obnoxious concert goers claiming that it's in the way.
For me it's worth the sacrifice of not chatting and moving, if I can bring home a perfect tape undisturbed. And when I carry valuable gear, I don't drink anyway... I rather pamper myself with a separate night out at the pub with friends, when I can enjoy the music in the bar without worries.
But I digress.
My question to the OP: If you really love a band, and the management/venue don't allow taping, would you leave your rig at home? Or stealth?
Your answer will decide what type of gear you should get.
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4021 > sonosax > Korg MR-1
or
4021 > Beyer MV-100 > Korg MR1
very small setup. The MR-1 is on sale for about $300-$400 now, and you can find a MV100 for around $200-$400