Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: nicegrin on March 31, 2009, 06:21:01 PM
-
Hi fellow tapers!
I just wonder what the best way is to set up your AT 853s cards with an edirol r09. There seem to be a few different ways.
If you want your AT853s to perform at their very best given that you record loud rock, which one of these setups is the best? (in terms of good bass response, good SPL handling etc.) Is there really a difference at all and if so could any wizard at the board please explain why?
1. AT853s 3 wired with a 3 wired 9V Battery box -> Edirol R09
2. At 853s 3 wired + phantom adapters + Denecke PS-2 (or similar unit) -> Edirol R09
3. At 853s 2 wired with 4.7 resistor mod + 9v battery box -> Edirol R09
Any other option to concider that would be even better than the best one above?
Thanks!
Nicegrin
-
1. AT853s 3 wired with a 3 wired 9V Battery box -> Edirol R09
3 wire will give you locking connectors, though a slightly larger setup compared to 1/8" 2-wire.
2. At 853s 3 wired + phantom adapters + Denecke PS-2 (or similar unit) -> Edirol R09
I see no advantage to this option.
3. At 853s 2 wired with 4.7 resistor mod + 9v battery box -> Edirol R09
If size is a concern, this is a fantastic option.
-
Well, the Denecke PS-2 has a very low noise floor. It's certainly lower than any point to point wired "three wire battery box" out there. Also, having the phantom adapters will give you the option to upgrade to a phantom powered preamp later on.
-
Well, the Denecke PS-2 has a very low noise floor. It's certainly lower than any point to point wired "three wire battery box" out there. Also, having the phantom adapters will give you the option to upgrade to a phantom powered preamp later on.
Yeah, a low noise floor and lots of gain(preamp) are important for "loud rock." ::)
:)
-
is there any difference in bass response or distortion levels given the 3 setups in my original post?
thanks
-
is there any difference in bass response or distortion levels given the 3 setups in my original post?
thanks
You really have to listen to several samples of each and see what sounds best to you. I have, and I personally think nothing is more clear than the sound of the PS-2. In terms of SPL handling specs, no matter which mod you choose, the results are all about the same.
-
option 2 is the best imo.
you get the adapters to run other pres which is the main benefit - and should be the real goal...
plus, i have not really heard a benefit from either the 3 wire or 4.7 mod versions. I believe both mods lower the dB of the mics (at least the 3 wire does for sure), which require more gain from the recorder - which is never an ideal situation.
fwiw - i have run my at853s into a ps2, sd mp2, regular and 3 wire battery box.
-
option 2 is the best imo.
you get the adapters to run other pres which is the main benefit - and should be the real goal...
plus, i have not really heard a benefit from either the 3 wire or 4.7 mod versions. I believe both mods lower the dB of the mics (at least the 3 wire does for sure), which require more gain from the recorder - which is never an ideal situation.
fwiw - i have run my at853s into a ps2, sd mp2, regular and 3 wire battery box.
Running the mics via the adaptor is three wire and you do lose level with that method as well, but in some of the adaptors there is a buffer amp that gives a 12 db boost to correct for the loss. For this reason if you plan to only stealth and you want to run three wire because of the locking connectors then my 9100 is a good choice. But if you want to run bigger mics and do open and stealth getting adaptors and a full size preamp is a good choice.
-
phantom adapters and preamps? Could someone explain the point, esspecially for "loud rock"
1st, 853's run 3-wire into a battery box is a shorter signal chain compaired to a phantom adapters and preamps, which will do nothing for you in a "loud rock" situation. I don't see where phantom adapters have any advantage over a 3-wire battery box.
Chris has a good point, even though a preamp is pointless for "loud rock" his 9100 is still smaller than a phantom adapter and phantom supply, and more functional. Additionally there have been some recent threads showing the performance of the at/nady phantom adapters are not as clean as we first expected. Some folks are finding much better results with nainants PFA adapter.
Also, the only folks I ever see suggest that the phantom adapters->ps2 is the best way to run AT's are people that currently run them. I rarely see someone who has owned all setups (phantom adapter, 3-wire, 2-wire) chose phantom adapter.
I could see an argument for phantom adapter vs 1/8", but not phantom adapter vs 3-wire battery box. The only purpose of the phantom adapter was for AT to provide a industry standard balanced solution for long cable runs over choirs. We don't need long balanced cable runs and either of the phantomless options will perform just as well (if not better) for our type of field recording.
If you want large phantom powered preamps and shinny lights, get a pair of SDCs or LDCs. If you want small and unobtrusive, get an 1/8" 4.7k setup.
If you are totally set on using 853's with a phantom rig, get a a pair of U873Rs and run them like a normal mic, they will out perform any of the options outlined above...
-
1. AT853s 3 wired with a 3 wired 9V Battery box -> Edirol R09
2. At 853s 3 wired + phantom adapters + Denecke PS-2 (or similar unit) -> Edirol R09
3. At 853s 2 wired with 4.7 resistor mod + 9v battery box -> Edirol R09
I would go with option #3 for convenience, as long as you are mostly taping loudish rock shows.
edit: this is a NMAS show I taped with the AT853 w/4.7k mod going into the 9100 and R-09.
http://www.archive.org/details/nmas2008-05-18.at853.flac16 (http://www.archive.org/details/nmas2008-05-18.at853.flac16)
-
Also, the only folks I ever see suggest that the phantom adapters->ps2 is the best way to run AT's are people that currently run them. I rarely see someone who has owned all setups (phantom adapter, 3-wire, 2-wire) chose phantom adapter.
as i mentioned above, i have run all 3 setups and i prefer the phantom powered versions. the primary reason (aside from increased flexibility in what you can run behind it) is the ability to add clean gain.
most battery boxes have to rely on the recorder to add gain and that is not always the best way to go. that said, i have a battery box that i can use to run directly into a recorder if necessary. although in stealth situations, a small preamp is not much different than a battery box - its still another box to stash. the last time i even considered using my battery box (but still went with a p48 solution) was 3 years ago - its mostly for sentimental reasons that i hold on to it.
-
Also, the only folks I ever see suggest that the phantom adapters->ps2 is the best way to run AT's are people that currently run them. I rarely see someone who has owned all setups (phantom adapter, 3-wire, 2-wire) chose phantom adapter.
I haven't owned all 3 of those setups but have heard enough of them to know that my preference lies with my current setup: AT853C/H/O/SC > Samson PM4 > SD MP-2 > R-09HR @ 24/96 (all cables are silvers other than the AT cable attached to the mics). I really like this setup...I don't think I've ever heard 853's sound better. A different preamp might add a different flavor but I can't see it getting much better.
If you are totally set on using 853's with a phantom rig, get a a pair of U873Rs and run them like a normal mic, they will out perform any of the options outlined above...
Doubt that...I'd be willing to bet the circuitry in the U873 is very similar to most common phantom adapters. That being said...I've got a pair that I bought used in the YS and I never have used...would be willing to offer them up for the price I paid, $60, if anyone wants them.
-
For some reason I thought the answer was "put them on Ebay"...
-
For some reason I thought the answer was "put them on Ebay"...
::) If you have something against the mics, why would you even click on the the thread?...nevermind going through the process of posting a trolling remark...
-
I have had a pair of the 933 bodies, 853 caps that I ran for many years 2 wire. Never very happy with reults. Had the 4.7k mod done and now very pleased. I would advise to have the mod if you go 2 wire.
-
Also, the only folks I ever see suggest that the phantom adapters->ps2 is the best way to run AT's are people that currently run them. I rarely see someone who has owned all setups (phantom adapter, 3-wire, 2-wire) chose phantom adapter.
I haven't owned all 3 of those setups but have heard enough of them to know that my preference lies with my current setup: AT853C/H/O/SC > Samson PM4 > SD MP-2 > R-09HR @ 24/96 (all cables are silvers other than the AT cable attached to the mics). I really like this setup...I don't think I've ever heard 853's sound better. A different preamp might add a different flavor but I can't see it getting much better.
If you are totally set on using 853's with a phantom rig, get a a pair of U873Rs and run them like a normal mic, they will out perform any of the options outlined above...
Doubt that...I'd be willing to bet the circuitry in the U873 is very similar to most common phantom adapters. That being said...I've got a pair that I bought used in the YS and I never have used...would be willing to offer them up for the price I paid, $60, if anyone wants them.
you reinforce my point perfectly. "Don't knock something unless you have truely treid it."
-
you reinforce my point perfectly. "Don't knock something unless you have truely treid it."
No, actually I don't.
I have listened to recordings made with other setups. I prefer my setup. What difference does it make if I've owned the other setups?
-
There are so many variables in someone elses recording that you have no reference to, making comparisons much more difficult than direct comparison of your own equipment.
I understand your preference, but here is my ultimate point. 853's are electret mics. The only reason they are sold with phantom adapters is for convienience. it gives a balanced output for long cable runs and allows integration into typical xlr inputs. I can't comprehend how a more direct circuit like a 3-wire battery box setup could sound worse than the transformers and other shit used inside than phantom adapters. i would prefer a direct route for my electrets, not a conversion....
-
There are so many variables in someone elses recording that you have no reference to, making comparisons much more difficult than direct comparison of your own equipment.
Agree.
I understand your preference, but here is my ultimate point. 853's are electret mics. The only reason they are sold with phantom adapters is for convienience. it gives a balanced output for long cable runs and allows integration into typical xlr inputs.
Agree.
I can't comprehend how a more direct circuit like a 3-wire battery box setup could sound worse than the transformers and other shit used inside than phantom adapters.
Perhaps some folks are basing their opinion on a DIY 3-wire battery box that didn't use the best parts? Some folks may like the soinc signature of the transformers? After all, the ATs could use a little warmth IMO...
-
Great point Will_S. I agree on all counts. Perhaps folks do prefer the sound of the adapters, I can accept that.... Hell, I enjoy listening to my playback through all types of processors, sometimes a little distortion can sound good!
-
Perhaps some folks are basing their opinion on a DIY 3-wire battery box that didn't use the best parts? Some folks may like the soinc signature of the transformers?
Isn't that exactly what I was referring to earlier in this thread? :)
If there was a 3-wire battery box that sounded as good as the Denecke PS-2, I would get rid of all the extra gear and move to it instantly. But I've still yet to hear one. Certainly, the one I built didn't come close.
-
there isn't much to a battery box. If you used 1% tolerance metal film resistors and caps, it isnt going to get much better than that.
I can respect that you like the sound of one box over the other, and that is the best reason to make an audio decision. If you like how the PS-2 sounds that is fantastic. I personally love how the Oade SBM-1 sounds with 853's. Fortunatly it's sonic signature can be introduced without converting the signal by a phantom adapter.
-
you reinforce my point perfectly. "Don't knock something unless you have truely treid it."
No, actually I don't.
I have listened to recordings made with other setups. I prefer my setup. What difference does it make if I've owned the other setups?
In order to objectively evaluate any rig or its differences you must have one source and very close placement of all the mics to that source so you can hear the gear and not the differences in venue and recording techniques used like others have said way to many variables to be objective.
-
Perhaps some folks are basing their opinion on a DIY 3-wire battery box that didn't use the best parts? Some folks may like the soinc signature of the transformers?
Isn't that exactly what I was referring to earlier in this thread? :)
If there was a 3-wire battery box that sounded as good as the Denecke PS-2, I would get rid of all the extra gear and move to it instantly. But I've still yet to hear one. Certainly, the one I built didn't come close.
Does the Deneke really have a "sound"?...its a phantom supply and - ideally - should have no sonic signature. All it does is turn the mic "on". If anything is giving you a "sound", it would be the adapters and their electronics - not the PS2. Have you used a different phantom supply?
Sound or not - the idea of using one device to raise 9V to 48v...and then connect the adapter to drop it back to 9V - seems a bit inefficient battery-wise.
-
It's my understanding that the AT853's are designed for balanced use. The R09 is an unbalanced input... so somewhere along the way you have to perform this balanced to unbalanced conversion... whether you really deal with it, or "make it fit" by just wiring it together. I think the transformer inside the AT8533 adapters is the right way to deal with this.
I have AT853's 2 wire with, and without, 4.7k mod, and I have ones with the phantom adapters. I don't have the 3 wire battery box setup. I haven't done AB comps, but I think I like the ones with the phantom adapters best... as far as overall frequency response, but I do use the 2 wire ones for low profile.
-
I've run them stock, 4.7k MOD and w/phantom. I can never tell a difference between any of it.
:)
-
I think the question is how to get the most out of them....not what everyones opinion is.
The highest spl handling is with 3 wire / phantom.
The lowest noise floor is with 3 wire / phantom.
Whether or not someone finds it easier to stealth one way or another, or which ever way is less costly is completely irrelevant.
-
I think the question is how to get the most out of them....not what everyones opinion is.
The highest spl handling is with 3 wire / phantom.
The lowest noise floor is with 3 wire / phantom.
Whether or not someone finds it easier to stealth one way or another, or which ever way is less costly is completely irrelevant.
My mod actually makes the mics work better then three wire for max spl... and as far as noise floor goes well I have not measured it but both ways reduce the level by the same amount.
Chris
-
Ran the u853 hyper caps the other night for the first time and must say, was very impressed. I'd chime in that adding hypers and a subcard and/or omni element are definately ways to get more, offering flexibility and options.