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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: run_run_run on January 16, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
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Okay taping a friends band tonight but the bar is tight and they will set up in the corner with no stage. My first priority is to keep my gear relatively safe from the wild college drinkers. I will run the SBD feed into the back of my UA-5 and that will have vocals, keys and some kick drum. What these leaves not coming into the board is the lone guitar and the rest of the drums.
I figure ether
XY from trying to point at the amp and drums (the issue is I don't want the wideness to pick up drunks...)
Do my best to point 1 mic at the amp and 1 at the drums.
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From what you describe, that sounds about right. Some thoughts:
1) In my experience running on stage/stage lip, it is really easy to get too much drums so don't hug the drums... try to get closer to the guitar.
2) Generally speaking, I think people are accustomed to hearing the drums "centered" in a mix. If it was strictly on one side that might be kind of odd, but this is secondary to suggestion #1.
3) No bass player?
That said, it's bound to become a learning experience one way or the other.
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From what you describe, that sounds about right. Some thoughts:
1) In my experience running on stage/stage lip, it is really easy to get too much drums so don't hug the drums... try to get closer to the guitar.
2) Generally speaking, I think people are accustomed to hearing the drums "centered" in a mix. If it was strictly on one side that might be kind of odd, but this is secondary to suggestion #1.
3) No bass player?
That said, it's bound to become a learning experience one way or the other.
Agreed.
Can't use both h120s (in your sig) and keep the sources seperate till later? You would have to resample one of them (either digitally or otherwise) but it allows a little more flexibility. I guess if your there for soundcheck, you could play with stuff between soundcheck and the show.
edit: I love how we both respond 2 days after... ;D
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I'm looking to do the exact same thing (but with my own band -- that should be fun) on Friday. Picking up kick, vocals, acoustic guitar, keys and harmonica through the sound board, but will need to grab bass, electric guitar, and rest of drums via mics.
The stage setup will have guitar amp on one side, drums in middle, and bass on other side. I'm thinking of putting the mics on stage, one between the guitar amp and drummer, and one between the drummer and bass amp. What level off the ground would be best (although I may be limited by space and mic mounting equipment).
This is really my first recording venture so it's mostly a learning experience.
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What level off the ground would be best (although I may be limited by space and mic mounting equipment).
I generally run somewhere between knee high and waist high... I think if you are a few inches from the floor it might sound funny, but other than that I'm not sure it makes a big difference.
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When I run on the stage lip I run as high as I can without screwing up the sight lines. That means 4' - 5'. Otherwise all you are going to get is noise and not the vocals other than the SBD.
The SBD most likely will not be a good stereo feed so you will need your mics to capture the ambient sound to glue the SBD stuff together in the mix. At least that is how I do it and I get some good pulls with this placement.
If you are running cards, ORTF or similar is good; omni's AB at about 40cm.
This pull on TTD has AB and ORTF, SBD (mono) and a Blumlien. It''s alright.
http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79115
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Ok... so I'm actually going for this tonight.
Basically not a lot of options... recording the soundboard on my Edirol R-09HR, then going to record 2 mics via a minidisc, but using a crappy Behringer mixer as my pre-amps/mixer.
As for mics, I have the choice of either cards or (what my bandmate says are) 'directional' mics. Based on the layout of the stage/bar, I'm thinking of basically using his 'directional' mics and placing them effectively at the stage corners, pointed towards the drums (in the center). The guitar and bass amps will effectively be in between the mics and the drums on either side, so hopefully I'll get mostly the amps and just enough drums.
Any thoughts on other uses of my available mics? I can't really mic anything from the 'audience' so I'll need to do everything either on stage or at the stage lip.
I'm not expecting a WHOLE lot, but this is my first gig to experiment so we'll see how it goes.
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... placing them effectively at the stage corners, pointed towards the drums (in the center).
Any thoughts on other uses of my available mics?
My thought... and it's just a thought, there are no black and white, right or wrong answers...
Putting your mics far apart like that puts a lot of "phasing" between the mics, because it takes time for the sound to travel through air (about .001 seconds per foot). If the guitar cab is on the right, the right mic is closer. But the left mic gets some guitar too, but it hits the left mic .010 seconds after the right mic. Especially if you listen with headphones, it can create an odd effect.
An alternate approach would be to put 2 mics close together, in the front center (perhaps even clamped onto the center singers mic stand) and have those mics pointing towards the back corners of the stage, at 45 degrees (such that the included angle between 2 mics is about a 90 degree right angle). Then the capsules (business end of the mic) should probably be about 8" apart. What I have just described is what we call a "DIN" configuration. Some people swear by XY setup whereby the capsules are stacked on top of each other so there is no timing issues, others like the DIN I've just described, others like ORTF which is about 7" apart, and 110 degrees instead of 90. There are pictures here somewhere. The point is that having the mics even a few inches apart makes a difference in how it sounds with regard to this timing/phasing thing. Sometimes people split the mics 2-3 feet apart, and some people like it, but it's not my favorite.
Your brain is wired to get a feel for "where things are" in space based on the fact that your ears are about 7 inches apart, and that's were the whole "set the mics 7-8 inches apart" comes from. If you use that to your advantage it can help things sound more natural, especially with headphones.
Sometimes people break the rules and it works great. Somewhere I have an Allman Brothers tape with 15 foot split omnis that sounds great. I tried to do that one time and I hated it.
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If you have omnis or access to omnis try running them in the 'Healy Method' configuration. Anytime I am doing a multi channel recording with a SBD feed and the stage lip available i'll run Healy on stage lip exclusively. I find it usually compliments a SBD feed very well especially in small clubs or bad sounding rooms.
Just a thought...
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I like running ORTF when doing stage taping with cards. Nice separation of instruments and not too wide. When running subcards you can go a few centimeters wider. I run my Schoeps MK22 capsules at 21cm wide 110 degrees. This works well at least IMO.
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Bringing back an old thread....Might have the chance to run on-stage for a New Deal show in November. Band set up is (facing stage) keys far left (usually two monitors facing set up), bass center (2-3 monitors as well) and drums on the far right facing the band memebers.
Without getting an odd sounding tape (drums off to the side) how should I set up for this? The venue is going to be very small and at full capacity so running off stage, like normal, is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm going to try and borrow some LD mics for this. Thanks for any help!