Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: colinw on February 22, 2010, 08:46:07 AM
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Hi everyone - first off, thank you for the wealth of information on this site. I have been reading for a while now and just registered a day or so ago. It is wonderful to have such an experienced, helpful crew to help out newbies!
I have been attending shows and trading/collecting recordings for a long time now. I understand the committment (time and financial) that tapers require, and I would like to give back a little.
There is no way I can financially step up to some of the rigs that I see people using, and I know my tapes/recording won't be as good. Maybe one day I will have the means or drive to run a rig with Neumann u89s, but right now my budget is eaten up by the kids!! I do however live in a spot where there are few tapers, and I would like to record and share the shows I go to locally.
I have an old Minidisc recorder, and a pair of Coresound binaurals, which I have used to successfully record a few shows over the years, but I would like to step up to a new digital recorder. With budget in mind what would people suggest for a beginner like me? I would be interested in recording anything from hard rock to acoustic, and in venues ranging from clubs/bars, to small cafes to hockey arenas. Mostly stealth, unless taper friendly where I can patch out of someone else or borrow other mics. I know that is a laundry list of requirements!!!
I have been looking at both the Zoom H2, and the Tascam DR-07. Both seem interesting, although I am concerned about the noise on the Zoom mic in, and I have read concerns about the 24bit recording of the Tascam.
What would you suggest as the best recorder for my purposes, using the CSB mics for now, around the pricepoint of the H2 or DR-07? I am sure I will step up to better mics as time goes on, so some upward compatability on the recorder would be nice.
Thank you for your feedback in advance. I appreciate you helping out this newbie!!
Colin
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Anyone thinking of the H2 should have a read of http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9745&start=0 - indeed, while its built in mics are acceptably low noise (for the price point) the mic input is unacceptably noise at the price point. Which is rather odd, and rather a pity, but there it is.
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I have owned a Zoom H2.
It was my first unit, so I came without many expectations. I was very excited about the concept of recording and I didn't care much about the outcome. I thought I would better see if I like the hobby before I buy one of the more expensive recorders.
I have done a few recordings with the H2, using the built in mics and both the line in and mic in sockets using custom made battery box and mics. I am not an audiophile, but according my personal taste, the Zoom made pretty nice recordings using the internal mics and better recordings when I used the external mics and battery box through the line in socket. The recordings were not amazing but they ok.
The recording I have made through the Mic in socket came out very noisy even when setting the Zoom recording level to low.
Once I have even made a recording using the external mic and battery box through the mic in socket with plug in power turned "off" and the result came out very noisy as well.
After a few recordings I eventually returned the Zoom because one of the channels on the line in socket broke down. That happened after only about 5 recordings and it really pissed me off because it happened before an important concert that I went to, one that I was planning to record in the best possible quality. The build quality of the unity is really poor. It looks and feels like a toy.
I think the Zoom is a nice unit if you want to experiment and see if you like this hobby. If you have some experience in the field, I think you may be disappointed.
I am not sure about the dr-07 but maybe you should consider buying a more expensive unit like the Sony PCM-M10 or an Edirol R09-HR. A new unit will cost somewhere around $280 but I think you can buy a used one or find a cheaper one on ebay. From what I have read in this site, both of these units are great, better than the zoom or the dr-07.
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I love my DR-07. The 2 new Tascam units look nice too. Btw, what short comings did you hear about the Dr-07 in 24 bit?
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Thank you for the great feedback so far. I appreciate you taking the time to provide replies.
I am interested to hear other viewpoints as well. Has anyone used Coresound binaurals with theri the Tascam or the Zoom? It seems from what I am reading that even the somewhat cheap Coresound binaurals with their battery box will be an improvement over the internal mics of either recorder.
As for the 24bit issues with the Tascam, I read it ina nother thread here that the unit is not making true 24 bit recordings, although I may have misinterpreted.
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I think the Tascasm DR-07 is a great little machine. I purchased one on sale from Sound Professionals for $99. It has been a pleasure to use, and I too have seen no issues recording at 24 bit which is what I always use. I have quite a few other decks, and like them all for various reasons and dollar for dollar it would be tough to beat the DR-07.
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Very few portable recorders have internal noise levels that can take advantage of 24 bits. With most, making a 24 bit recording means that you are making a more accurate recording of the recorder's noise than if you used 16 bits.
However, the real advantage of a 24 bit recording vs 16 bits (in the context of location recording) even with a cheap recorder is that levels can be set more conservatively so that there's no risk of exceeding the maximum permitted sample value at the analog to digital converter. Just record at a lower level and normalise afterwards (but bear in mind that 'underdriving' the analog parts of the signal chain can be detrimental to signal to noise ratio, so don't go too far in the low level direction).
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Thanks for that description/clarification Ozpeter.
Very few portable recorders have internal noise levels that can take advantage of 24 bits. With most, making a 24 bit recording means that you are making a more accurate recording of the recorder's noise than if you used 16 bits.
However, the real advantage of a 24 bit recording vs 16 bits (in the context of location recording) even with a cheap recorder is that levels can be set more conservatively so that there's no risk of exceeding the maximum permitted sample value at the analog to digital converter. Just record at a lower level and normalise afterwards (but bear in mind that 'underdriving' the analog parts of the signal chain can be detrimental to signal to noise ratio, so don't go too far in the low level direction).
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Thanks for that description/clarification Ozpeter.
Very few portable recorders have internal noise levels that can take advantage of 24 bits. With most, making a 24 bit recording means that you are making a more accurate recording of the recorder's noise than if you used 16 bits.
However, the real advantage of a 24 bit recording vs 16 bits (in the context of location recording) even with a cheap recorder is that levels can be set more conservatively so that there's no risk of exceeding the maximum permitted sample value at the analog to digital converter. Just record at a lower level and normalise afterwards (but bear in mind that 'underdriving' the analog parts of the signal chain can be detrimental to signal to noise ratio, so don't go too far in the low level direction).
That says it well! Audibly it may be difficult to tell any difference from 16 bit, but from a settings standpoint, you can be more conservative and make adjustments with a better end result. And more importantly this is not a Tascam DR-07 issue, this is more a small recorder deck issue.
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I'm having a similar internal debate, with slightly different needs/interests.
I have an H2 that's been a champ but I just saw the DR-08 (timer function, speaker, move-able mics) and I'm thinking of going for it as I found it for pretty cheap. I'm just not sure if I would be losing out on the internal mic quality. I've been too cheap/lazy to get externals, and as I'm generally setting up the H2 to capture non-professional jams I've not made the leap to 'good equipment'.
Any opinions on the internal mic quality of the H2 vs the DR08 (which I understand has the same mics as the 07)?
???
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You'll need to consider whether the four mics on the H2 vs the two on the Tascam is a relevant factor to you.
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You'll need to consider whether the four mics on the H2 vs the two on the Tascam is a relevant factor to you.
It is a factor, but not quite as valuable (to me) as an estimation of the sound floor/mic quality/responsiveness difference between the two.
FYI - I'm primarily capturing acoustic sets of Hang/Halo/BEll instruments:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iK7hLQzBhTA
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ob23PL1bLMg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oOuloxR2K0I