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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: toolrep1 on March 13, 2010, 02:48:59 PM
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Hi Everyone!
I have a technical question for the board, with a situation that I've never encountered before. My friend recently taped a show, and I just listened to it, and I'm confused. She was essentially dead center, against the stage, right in front of the lead singer (the show was GA, the room held about 700 people, and open taping wasn't allowed).
Here is how she describes her taping position:
"I was stage front with mics about mid-chest height on my purse handles hanging from my shoulder. About 3 feet from stage as we had to keep a space clear for camerman (the show was filmed for an upcoming DVD release). Stage is high, about at my chin height. Nearest bank of speakers were suspended from ceiling to my right & up pretty high. I aimed mics that direction. I did notice when anyone was talking the sound was lower & vocals were hard to distinguish when singing but could make them out listening carefully."
Without touching the "raw" master, the instrumentals (guitars, bass, keyboards, drums, etc.) are crystal clear. I mean, up there with the best "stealth" recordings I've pulled with the Edirol HR-09R. But the vocals are just really low. On the more acoustic numbers, it's not as noticeable, but on the more guitar-heavy songs, it's almost hard to hear the vocals, as they're overpowered by the music.
So my questions are:
1. Could this be the result of the taping position?
2. Do anyone know of anyway to boost the vocals without increasing the volume of the music? The entire recording does not need to be increased in sound level, only the vocals. I don't have the knowledge to do this, but I figured somebody on this board might be able to help...I've never done any post-processing of shows, so I don't even know where I would begin...
Ok, hope to hear from someone soon-thanks!
Andy
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textbook case of standing too close to the stage...
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Ok, can you please elaborate on this "standing too close to the stage?"
And, are there software programs out there than can separate vocals from instrumentals, allowing for just the vocals to be boosted?
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Lets say this is an average rock band...
The instruments all have on stage amplification, the vocals are only coming through the on stage monitors and the FOH PA system. The mics were placed in a position where they didn't pick up the monitors ( in front of you but facing the band ) or the PA ( hung from the ceiling will go straight over your head on the first row ).
As far as being able to fix it with software....I don't think I'd even try it....I'd just scrap it and go with lesson learned.
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I wonder if the mics' height may also be contributing to the problem - mid-chest sounds pretty low, which in my experience usually equals fewer high frequencies, something that always seems to take a higher toll on the clarity and perceived proximity of vocals.
In terms of being too close to the stage, I think what Rhinowig is getting at is that you can often be so close to the action that the PA system projects beyond you, so you get everything that is coming off the stage but anything that is coming only through the PA (ie vocals) gets a bit lost.
Plus a lot of indie-type bands seem to mix their vocals very low when playing live, something the human ear seems to compensate for somewhat in the room but less so when listening to a recording. That's my experience anyway.
As for trying to sort it out with software, I would think that it would be more or less a lost cause. You might try gently boosting frequencies between 1-2kHz to try and bring the vocals out a bit more but I'd imagine that things are going to start sounding quite odd quite quickly
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Ok, can you please elaborate on this "standing too close to the stage?"
And, are there software programs out there than can separate vocals from instrumentals, allowing for just the vocals to be boosted?
Yep, your friend got solid monitor/stage sound, which is low on vocals, and missed the PA for the most part.
Nope, no programs that will directly do what you're hoping, though by boosting specific frequency ranges you may be able to improve the vocals a little, but not that much, I'm afraid.
And this:
I wonder if the mics' height may also be contributing to the problem - mid-chest sounds pretty low, which in my experience usually equals fewer high frequencies, something that always seems to take a higher toll on the clarity and perceived proximity of vocals.
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textbook case of standing too close to the stage...
I've recorded from a "new-to-me" venue where I could have sworn that I'd be in the "sweet spot" and have had this happen. I was taping from the 10th row and vocals came out as crap on the recording. Everything else sounded great.
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There is a flip side to this.
A few bluegrass, folk, and some jazz acts have great vocal mixes in the onstage monitors.
However more often than not you will get low vocals when onstage/lip.
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back in the early days of my taping ive made this mistake luckly as in your case the show had been filmed for dvd or just someone's personal collection. Id find out as much info on the release of the video as I could and try to get a copy maybe mix the audio from it with your recording ?
Now a days youll never find me front center unless Im filming and I know another source of audio will be available at some point .As for the people I know I would never have someone do the recording for me unless i gave them very very strict rules .
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This reminds me of the 53 shows I've been at where someone up against the stage is yelling "turn it up", or "more vocals" or whatever, not realizing that they are essentially standing behind the speakers...
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hah :-D yes
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Emphasizes how crucial position in the venue is to recording. I think it's one of the most important factors.
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just like in real estate the three most important words are Location, Location, Location
while front row/stage lip is often ideal for photography it is usually less so for recording (unless it's an acoustic show or you're off-center and effectively stack taping)
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Or an instrumental band.
Although even with instrumental bands some things get lost in translation, or are fed only through the PA.
At MMW 9/28/08 everything on my recording was clear and present except for the melodica. Which turned out, for that show anyway, was fed through the PA only.
Also I imagine proper location is a ton more difficult around stage lip when sleathing like your friend was.
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I was at a Menomena show one time where only the vocals and the keys were in the extremely under powered pa (it was at a small high school auditorium). As you moved around the room, the sound changed from uneven, to bad, to worse. It was pretty crazy--one spot was all drums, nothing else, the next was just vocals and keys, nowhere had a good mix. But my friend was able to make a nice mix from the SBD and AUD tapes I made, coming up with something that sounded far superior than the room sound at the actual show.
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Wow, thanks for the great advice everyone!
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Stage lip monitor bleed
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Wow, thanks for the great advice everyone!
Yeah, the only other thing I can think of besides some 1-2k eq boost is to use a multiband compressor and similarly boost the 1-2k range (that's about where vocals sit)...
Or, wait for the DVD and make a matrix mix merge of their audio with yours. Actually I always find this an interesting thing to do! neat to hear the "professionally mixed" soundboard along with the real live audio experience!
Or, be happy that I taped the next two shows almost perfectly! haha. I did notice that vocals weren't mixed too heavily in the mix, and i was in prime taper locations...
Maybe I can mess around with your source tapes and come up with some slight fix?
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We have a venue here that has average sound to say the least. I went up close at a Yo La Tengo gig and was quite close to the stage in front of the the guitar and got good instrumental sound but half way through i realized i could hear the vocals basically behind me and 20ft up. The PA speakers are way high in a very tall room. So I have a great Yo La Tengo karaoke tape if anyone is interested
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We have a venue here that has average sound to say the least. I went up close at a Yo La Tengo gig and was quite close to the stage in front of the the guitar and got good instrumental sound but half way through i realized i could hear the vocals basically behind me and 20ft up. The PA speakers are way high in a very tall room. So I have a great Yo La Tengo karaoke tape if anyone is interested
:'(
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eh, one time in WV we were taping Karma to Burn, Treasure Cat, and West by God - the first 2 acts being instrumental. the snbd of West by God had NO vocals in it. was glad to have ran seperate AUD audio, mixed about 25% of the snbd w/ 75% of the aud, the other 2 bands of the night were about 50/50, but to not have the vocals sound extremely low in the mix had to boost the audience.
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the snbd of West by God had NO vocals in it.
How were there no vocals in the soundboard feed? Where were they?
No entiendo...
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I once had a Great seat to a Jeff Beck show at a seated theatre/opera house... 2nd or 3rd row. I was really looking forward to it... I've made great front row recordings from that venue.
I was hugely disappointed to discover his amps on stage were for mostly for appearance and there was almost no volume... Worse, the dudes in the seats behind me were playing the "name that tune" contest over the start of most songs... So I bolted and switched seats with a friend... which was pretty awkward in that venue... Unfortunately he was seated a couple seats away from a drunk woo-woo dude. And even in the sweet spot, the show was too quiet. So the recording still sits. A few hours of work would mostly fix the woo-woo dude, but the results that night were very frustrating.
Regarding the OP's show. There are some post techniques that could bring up the vocals. Vocals tend to be mono vs the music in stereo. That can be used to isolate the vocals, and create a vocal track which can be EQ'd and re-mixed. It is difficult to do well, time consuming and the probability of a good result is low.