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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: paytoplay on June 02, 2010, 05:45:41 PM
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I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.
On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.
Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.
Oh, and I run the CA-14.
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I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.
On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.
Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.
Oh, and I run the CA-14.
Omni depends on distance to the stage / PA if your close you can use omni mics for sure. It also depends on how loud the source is if the source is loud you can get away with omni because it will be louder then the audience. If you are far away and dead center use cards.. but again you need to get them as high as you can to get a really good capture.
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I've got the ca14 omnis & cards. I've ran them outside (omnis) on a stand up about 10 feet so my experience doesn't apply to stealth.
I believe you may to better if you get close to one of the speakers and just hang out in front of it. Depending on how big/small the stage is and placement of the speakers, you may have to go very far back to be DFC and that would usually mean being around a bunch of loud talkers and since you're running omnis, not cool.
Whatever mics you get, split them at least 6 inches and more if possible. How would you simultaneously run the omnis and cards?
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Thanks for the quick answers. Then I'll go for the omnis and try split them at least 6 inches. Might try to get closer to the stage aswell.
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Split omnis. Omnis are less sensitive to wind, which can be a big help.
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I can't give better advice than you have gotten. But I can add some observations. Omni's hear everything, front, back and sides. Cards are focussed on what is in front and to some degree to the sides. They generally have different arrays. I run omni's at about 40cm apart facing straight ahead, not that it matters a whole lot. They can be off a few degrees. Cards I generally run ORTF, 110 degree included angle and 17 cm distance between diaphragms. Cards hear better at a distances, about 50% better. Actually a card generally hears 1.7 times the distance an omni does. So, omnis go in close. If crowd noise is a problem, run them up high. Also, omnis have a better bottom end, you will get better bass,
All that aside, you are going to have fun at the concert and get a recording. The more you practice recording the better you will get. And remember to have fun. 8)
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Not to hijack this topic, or dispute any of the above, but I have always wondered why, from a technical perspective, folks often recommend omnis outdoors.
Am I correct that the technical explanation goes something like:
Outdoors, you don't have a "room", so room reflections that often make omnis undesirable from any significant distance indoors are not a problem.
Omnis are less sensitive to wind.
Is there anything else? Because I would still think that since an omni is picking up 360 degrees of information, it would still be undesirable at any distance because it would sound more distant relative to a cardiod.
Assuming wind can be eliminated as an issue (i.e., by using proper windscreens), wouldn't using a more directional mic like a cardiod still be more desirable (again, at any significant distance from the source)? I get why hypers are probably not ideal outdoors...
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Not to hijack this topic, or dispute any of the above, but I have always wondered why, from a technical perspective, folks often recommend omnis outdoors.
Am I correct that the technical explanation goes something like:
Outdoors, you don't have a "room", so room reflections that often make omnis undesirable from any significant distance indoors are not a problem.
Omnis are less sensitive to wind.
Is there anything else? Because I would still think that since an omni is picking up 360 degrees of information, it would still be undesirable at any distance because it would sound more distant relative to a cardiod.
Assuming wind can be eliminated as an issue (i.e., by using proper windscreens), wouldn't using a more directional mic like a cardiod still be more desirable (again, at any significant distance from the source)? I get why hypers are probably not ideal outdoors...
I find for live outdoor shows omni mics sound more natural. And yes the lack of the room loading is a huge factor in the choice.. I dont think omni mics are a good choice far away from any source. I also think because PA systems have come so far no longer is distance a huge factor in sound quality like it once was. That now means that omni mics can be run farther away then we once ran them and still be able to get good results. SO I guess it depends on the situation the quality of the sound system.. and distance. These things can only be known the day of the show that's one of the reasons why I include omni and cards in my ca-9100 package.
Chris
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This may not help anytime in the very immediate future, but when I go to Bonnaroo next week I plan on using my Busman BSC1's with a card cap and some Church CAFS-OMNI's on a 6'10" split. I should soon (within a month or so) have some nice comparisons on this issue.
*granted I will not be using the same chain for the mics, as I do not have a 4 track recorder, but the sound itself should be interesting to compare nonetheless.
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OMNIs are just more forgiving. Less sensitive to wind noise. Sometimes even handling noise. Harder to aim poorly. And other perks. There are no proper wind screens. And once you put a windscreen on, you might not be able to determine where it's aimed anymore. There are adequate windscreens for your region. But I live in a region where wind is a major issue for a fair amount of the year.
Cards just sound odd to me outdoors. Truck driving down the road, and boom it's in the image, you hear it move some, then boom it's gone. Are there buildings there? Did it drive off a cliff? That poor truck...
I 2nd the elevation thing. It just sounds better above peoples heads, than hidden behind someones back. And it's easier to get a better balance of audience versus group. Not always an option, but something to consider. Proximity is always good, depending on the loudness of a given performance. If you're just going to be recording the PAs, you might as well leave the mics at home and get a direct feed.
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Split omnis. Omnis are less sensitive to wind, which can be a big help.
If you run omni's make sure there's no roof over your head. I've run omni's where it's open air no roof such as Red Rocks and it sounds amazing. I've ran where it's outdoor but with the roof covering the seated area and it sounds like shit. Omni's are more forgiving for >:D recordings since you don't necessarily have to stand perfectly still which could in turn make you look suspicious. I only use cards inside during the winter months if I can avoid it. It will all boil down to a matter of preference of what sound you like when listening to your recordings.
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^ Very true. I only use my omni's in 'open air' situatations with no roof.
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What he said. :)
It's hard to say exactly which the best option is in this case. Some will say cards while others will say omnis. If it's windy, cards will be harder to deal with because they're affected more by wind. However, if you've got a bunch of chatty Cathy's around you, you're gonna pick them up on your omnis less than you would the cards. I've had some great recordings outdoors at festivals with cards and also some poor ones (same can be said for indoor rooms as well).
I think the key is to get up as close as you can to the stacks and use omnis. I know Chris says you can get away standing back a bit further with omnis but I'd still want to be about 20-30 people away from the stacks tops with omnis.
My $0.02.
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I've been looking around the board for some clearence on this but I didnt manage to be any wiser.
On friday, Im recording a rock concert in an outdoor area pretty similar to the ones on festivals.
I have so far only recorded in clubs with my omnis split about 5 inches.
Should I run the omnis outside aswell or try the cards? And how far from stage should I be when using cards/omnis, any good experiences? Should the cards be split at all? Im running stealth so I dont plan to split the mics further than the 5-6 inches.
Oh, and I run the CA-14.
If you are running stealth you will be in the crowd, right? Run the cards to minimize the noise from the people around you.
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If you are running stealth you will be in the crowd, right? Run the cards to minimize the noise from the people around you.
However if it's windy - and he's running windsocks or whatnot - he'll be thankful for the omnis. I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could heard the odd passing of wind.
Again, this one'll be debated until the cows come home. ;)
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Some omnis, like the Microtech Gefell M27 capsules, have a high-frequency boost and are designed for far-field recording. That, combined with their lower sensitivity to wind noise, means that I run them every chance I get outdoors.
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I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could hear the odd passing of wind.
Nothing fancy like a wind tunnel - but my Dad used to fart so loud, you could hear it through the wall in the next room.
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I did a recording in Toronto about a decade ago at a major intersection known for being a wind-tunnel and even with the windsocks, you could hear the odd passing of wind.
Nothing fancy like a wind tunnel - but my Dad used to fart so loud, you could hear it through the wall in the next room.
Okay... just noticed that. Good one.. ;)
I think I was trying to say that you could hear wind passing by the mics.
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Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?
What's the best configuration to use?
Thanks.
MSTaper
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Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?
What's the best configuration to use?
Thanks.
MSTaper
I'd like to know this as well.
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what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?
What's the best configuration to use?
There's no simple answer. It depends a lot on the type of sound one enjoys and appreciates and the environment in which one records. Some people like widely split omnis. Some like a smaller split. Others prefer baffled omnis (e.g. Jecklin disc). Some people have a certain tolerance and/or appreciation for a degree of ambient / reverberant sound. Others have a much higher a lower tolerance.
In general, I found I could get away with omnis from a farther distance outdoors v. indoors, since there's usually less reverberant sound outdoors.
General consideration: However it sounds to your ears from the recording location, omnis will sound similar. So if it's boomy, or muddy, or distant, etc., you'll likely achieve a similar result running omnis.
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Cool, thanks Brian. I'd try it tonight, but my son has the Avantones at Bonnaroo. It's Church cards DFC!
I'll have another chance later this month.
MSTaper
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No one has really addressed it, but what about running both?
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Good info, but what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?
What's the best configuration to use?
Thanks.
MSTaper
It depends on how you define good.
It depends on how loud the group is.
It depends on how that balances to the ambient noises.
I'm generally 2x's as far from the stage as the stage and/or group is wide. But my thing is generally large groups and not so large crowds. And that distance is probably determined by my camcorder, not my audio gear. I consider it good, but that might be a function of how much I've spent on gear. I don't really see getting much further back and still yielding good results with OMNI's since the only stereo separation you'd get is if you aimed the mics away from the group. Or had a realllllly spaced pair.
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what's the farthest from the stage you can be and still get a good pull with omnis?
What's the best configuration to use?
There's no simple answer. It depends a lot on the type of sound one enjoys and appreciates and the environment in which one records. Some people like widely split omnis. Some like a smaller split. Others prefer baffled omnis (e.g. Jecklin disc). Some people have a certain tolerance and/or appreciation for a degree of ambient / reverberant sound. Others have a much higher a lower tolerance.
In general, I found I could get away with omnis from a farther distance outdoors v. indoors, since there's usually less reverberant sound outdoors.
General consideration: However it sounds to your ears from the recording location, omnis will sound similar. So if it's boomy, or muddy, or distant, etc., you'll likely achieve a similar result running omnis.
Spot on, Brian. Well put.
I use omnis a lot, both indoors and out. It’s tricker to use them indoors and usually requires placing them closer to the stage for the reasons mentioned above. In general it’s easier to use them outdoors so that’s a good place to try first if less familiar with them, also because they have some advantages outdoors such as less susceptibility to wind noise. They work well at a distance outdoors, yet closer is still usually better, simply because it sounds better closer. But that’s usually the case regardless of pickup pattern for a lot of reasons: higher signal to noise ratio (aka- music to blabber ratio), less frequency attenuation by the air itself, less distance for wind to push the sound around before it gets to the mics, more enveloping sound when the source is wider as viewed from the mic position, more focused crowd energy, etc.
I'll mention a couple unusual distant mic’ing scenarios where omnis have been superior, just to emphasize 'it depends':
1) Boundary mounted omnis indoors on the back wall or front balcony surface of a venue has sometimes worked better for me, with less boom and room reflection problems than cardioids from the same location. But boundary mounting them changes the nature of an omnidirectional mic to a more directional one and introduces other unique boundary mounting traits that help that situation, so it’s really a whole different pickup pattern and microphone response. It also isn’t a very common mic’ing approach for concert recording.
2) All the space shuttle or rocket launch recordings I’ve heard have been done with omnis at at distance of many, many miles, and the ‘talent’ is never mic’d through the PA. Same goes for most good thunderstorm recordings, trains through valleys and other far-ambient ‘takes you are there’ non-concert stuff.
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Looking back, the original post mentions that this will be a >:D recording. So really configuration is whatever is easiest to not get caught and come out with something instead of nothing.
I've ran omni's in a baseball field where the stage was set in the back of the field and I was in the last row of the first seated sections in the stand and it turned out good. So it can be done but you run the risk of not getting anything worthwhile. I had two rigs at the time and was pretty much experimenting with the omni's. That's how I know that if you run under a shed in an outdoor venue (Alpine Valley, Tinley Park come to mind) then you will have a recording that sounds like shit. Believe me, I know.
When not able to get that 3' or however long split, I have had some success running Healy with my omni's. As a matter of fact that's what I'll be running for Panic on the Rocks later this month. Being able to run closer to the sound source has it's disadvantages. While running for the two Petty shows on the Rocks, I had someone bump me up to the second row VIP section because they wanted to sit with their friends who happened to be sitting next to me. The booje that sit's down there will make your skin crawl when you are trying to record and they just want to talk to their friends or worse yet, try talking to you. Chalk it up to experience and hope the next one will turn out better.
Speaking of omni's, I started with a pair of Core Sound Binaurals. I had excellent results outdoors but couldn't figure out why my recordings indoors sounded like I was in a phone booth or public bathroom. I was referred to this board and that's where I picked up the little education I have now about concert recording. I'm no expert or even on the intermediate level by no means. I just know what has worked for me and this board has been able to shape this hobby into a 99% success rate of recordings for me. Without that, I'd still be hit or miss on my tapes.
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..I know that if you run under a shed in an outdoor venue (Alpine Valley, Tinley Park come to mind) then you will have a recording that sounds like shit. Believe me, I know..
IME, omnis rarely work in big outdoor tents for the same reason- major problems imposed by mid frequencies reflected off the tent's cathedral ceiling, even though the bass frequencies which cause boominess in regular rooms pretty much pass right through.
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IME, omnis rarely work in big outdoor tents for the same reason- major problems imposed by mid frequencies reflected off the tent's cathedral ceiling, even though the bass frequencies which cause boominess in regular rooms pretty much pass right through.
Hmmm, I'll have the chance to record both outdoors and under tents at an upcoming festival. Outdoors, I'm tempted to run blumlein with my LSD2. Would there be any advantage to using spaced omnis instead? Recommended spacing?
Under the tents, blumlein or cards @ 120º is what I've run before. Would there be any advantage to running baffled omnis instead of the LSD2? Attached is a pic where I've had both mounted on one stand.
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i can't afford the caps to try blumlein, however, given the choice i'd run spaced omnis in a field first and blumlien inside first.
i'm not talking from experience tho. only wishful thinking.
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I agree. If you want to run the omnis, outside is probably a safer bet. Spacing depends alot on personal preference, how stereo the PA is, and distance. ~3' often works for me. Blumlein is like omnis in horizontal sensitivity, but is the least sensitive of any array to sounds from above and below. So it could be better in a tent, but there is still probably plenty of sound bouncing around horizontally. The LSD2 is a safer bet in the tents unless you have the omnis up at the stage-lip for something instrumental.