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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: mattmiller on June 03, 2010, 07:12:35 PM
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I'm seeing an artist this weekend (Friday and Saturday) and am considering asking him for a SBD patch to do a matrix. He's not particularly fond of taping, mostly because he doesn't understand why it appeals to us. But he's always let me tape openly in exchange for not circulating the recordings on the Internet. He likes hearing the recordings, so if I can catch him in a good mood before the show(s) I might stick my neck out and pop the question. In the event that he approves, my mics and the SBD will be separated by about 20 feet, so there's no way for me to monitor both recordings at the same time at the start of the show to get the levels set. So what I'd like to do is have my R-09HR at the SBD set to something that should be pretty close to the right levels, so that nothing is too out-of-whack for the minute or two that it will take me to tend to it. So for a (countrified) rock band in a small bar/restaurant, what would you recommend as a good starting point? It will be dual RCAs to a stereo mini plug. But LINE-IN? MIC-IN (LOW)? MIC-IN (HIGH)? And then what level (0-80)? I'll be recording at 24/48.
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SBD signals tend to run hot. you can always boost in post if you run too low, but the worst thing you can do is run it too high and end up with a seriously screwed up recording that is unfixable and unusable. i'd say line-in with the levels set no more than halfway (40 out of 80, it sounds like in your case). get there early and if you can get the OK and get hooked in early enough, you'll be able to record some of soundcheck to get an idea.
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agreed, I usually run line in at 30.
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I always run Line In at 30 as well.
- kobi.
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Line in at 14 ended up being the magic number. Peak amplitude was approximately -6.
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Line in at 14 ended up being the magic number. Peak amplitude was approximately -6.
Yeah... well....
There is a setting at which point the r09 and r09hr brickwall and levels will never go above -6. At that point, it also distorts bass. 7 is where things start to get bad on the r09. Not quite sure where that point is on the hr, but 14 is rather low.
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There is a setting at which point the r09 and r09hr brickwall and levels will never go above -6. At that point, it also distorts bass. 7 is where things start to get bad on the r09. Not quite sure where that point is on the hr, but 14 is rather low.
This is an area where the M10 probably has an advantage over the HR. The M10 doesn't reach this point until you need to turn the level below 1 (of 10) to keep the meters below 0 dB.
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Yeah... well....
There is a setting at which point the r09 and r09hr brickwall and levels will never go above -6. At that point, it also distorts bass. 7 is where things start to get bad on the r09. Not quite sure where that point is on the hr, but 14 is rather low.
So a 10 dB attenuator cable might be a good investment for me?
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The line in can take a hot signal according to guysonic. Most likely you won't ever need an attenuator for a board feed, but hopefully members with experience using the HR for board feeds will chime in.
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The m10 does better because the line-in has more attenuation built-in. The HR can't really take a very hot signal, especially when appropriately run up in the "safe zone" where it does not distort. So an attenuator is a very good idea.
But ultimately, the board output level to your device needs to be set by the sound dude. In most cases they can set the feed to match your device. If you're on friendly terms, you could ask them to glance at your r09 levels and tweak it in the ballpark. In some cases you may be sharing a bus or output with some other device that expects a hotter signal. In that situation, the attenuator would be required. You may also want to get yourself some splitters.
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I record from a Yamaha emx512 powered mixer, RCA-1/8" mini to line-in on the R09HR and find a level of 30 just about perfect for that specific combination.
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first post, but I'm a professional sound system designer and mix every first show we install, so I have a little experience.
It will depend on the sound engineer's gain structure that will affect the signal coming out of the mixing desk, even with a "rec out" 2 bus (post master).
If they have gain structure, then what tapers are finding is 30 on this model should be clean audio close to 1 to 1 - unity on the desk levels is unity on the recording device. proper gain structure would be setting the master fader to unity (0 dBu) and using the power amplifier's sensitivity controls to set the desired level of the sound system. this sends the cleanest possible, un attenuated signal to the actual power of the system.
If they have improper gain structure, like many sound engineers, with the power amplifiers turned all the way up and using the master fader to control the system level, then if the rec out is post master your recorder signals will come in at lower levels and you will need to boost the input trim to compensate, which will in turn increase the noise in the signal. not the most desirable.
So next show you check out, look at the master fader and see if it is at unity (about 3/4's of the fader length) or if it is at a much lower position. You can see if the sound engineer knows what's up. But by all means, don't try to explain gain structure to them, they will surely not appreciate it!
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i record off alot of sbds. many models. i have an r9 and a zoom h2. alot of sbds have rca tape outs. these are controlled by the main volume pots. most have aux feeds. these are tricky in that each input feeds an aux via a sep vol pot and if each is not set correctly it will not sound good. but aux feed volumes can be controlled sperately from the main outs. my h2 seems to have a hotter lin in than the r9. some sbds are too hot for the h2 and i must use the r9. now i also bring pads out. -10 to -30 switchable. this always gets me out of a jam. always use line in. if your rec lev number is low and the meters do not flucuate much, you need to add a pad. with my mics i usually rec around 20 (out of 30 max). that is the number i use as a ref. i would say recording at 7 will produce brickwall. always bring headsphones for monitoring.
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Two thoughts:
Firstly, are you sure you'll have access to RCA outs?
Secondly, and having used a R-09HR for board taping in the recent past, maybe the best way to check your level settings would be to ask the house/band sound guy to ping some signal through your line to your recorder before the show? I'd agree with the 'line-in at 30' comments made earlier.
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Yeah, I recently did a line in to a board (1/4 inch RCA to mini) into my R-09HR for an old-time country-rock band too. No attenuator required. Kept the levels low, -12. I think I had the recorder at 32 and it did not distort. The vocal mics were very hot and so I could only amplify it so much in post-processing. So be aware that its more than just instrument levels, the vocals can distort any board recording. Every time the singers screamed into the mics, I said a prayer hoping it wouldn't distort.
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The line in can take a hot signal according to guysonic. Most likely you won't ever need an attenuator for a board feed, but hopefully members with experience using the HR for board feeds will chime in.
I've had a distorted recording from a hot SBD patch once, where it was so hot that I had to keep the level on the R-09HR really low, like about 3-4 or so, and there wasn't time to ask for a less hot signal due to the show starting. That's one of the reasons I switched to a Marantz 661 as it can handle a much hotter signal with its pro line in.