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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Jhurlbs81 on July 14, 2010, 09:38:17 AM
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Hey All-
I'm taping a main stage festival this weekend and am curious about running omni mics up front. I'm not about to try a split down front and don't have a disc- what about running omnis in a NOS pattern? Or maybe even a little wider and a few more cm apart..? I can pretty much pick my spot on the field- cards or omnis folks? Help me decide.
Thanks! :)
Edit: meant to put this in set up..sorry brian
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I've ran omnis NOS at the stage lip with fantastic results. I see no reason this would not work provided you're in the 'impact zone' and the people around you are moderately respectable.
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stacks are probably spread 40-60'. I'll probably be 25-30' from the stage.
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stacks are probably spread 40-60'. I'll probably be 25-30' from the stage.
Isn't that a little close (unless the stacks are toed inward)?
40-50' is what I'd be expecting to put you at the meat of the sound.
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Here's a recording using NOS omnis:
http://www.archive.org/details/ymsb2009-10-17.ca14o.st9100.flac24
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I've had great reults running omnis NOS, inside and out.
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stacks are probably spread 40-60'. I'll probably be 25-30' from the stage.
Isn't that a little close (unless the stacks are toed inward)?
40-50' is what I'd be expecting to put you at the meat of the sound.
you're right. equal triangle for sure.
Here's a recording using NOS omnis:
http://www.archive.org/details/ymsb2009-10-17.ca14o.st9100.flac24
thanks Craig!
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stacks are probably spread 40-60'. I'll probably be 25-30' from the stage.
Isn't that a little close (unless the stacks are toed inward)?
40-50' is what I'd be expecting to put you at the meat of the sound.
you're right. equal triangle for sure.
no worries. I've been to fests before where the main stage had a speaker spread that might have been more then 65' but we could run at around 40' back because they had toed in the speakers by about 15*. Didn't know if this was one of those occasions.
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Healy method is also an option to consider.
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Hey All-
I'm taping a main stage festival this weekend and am curious about running omni mics up front. I'm not about to try a split down front and don't have a disc- what about running omnis in a NOS pattern? Or maybe even a little wider and a few more cm apart..? I can pretty much pick my spot on the field- cards or omnis folks? Help me decide.
Thanks! :)
Edit: meant to put this in set up..sorry brian
subcards! :)
omnis NOS should be nice
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(unless the stacks are toed inward)?
Or if they are running fills across the front of the stage, which can allow you to get much closer as long as they are high enough not to be blocked by the crowd in front of you. I've made some nice front row omni recordings when that's an option, which would otherwise be mud city if the fills weren't there.
[edit- this is more of a 'very close' option. The fills may not be strong enough to do their reinforcement job 25' - 30' back]
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Healy method is also an option to consider.
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Please, for the convenience of people like me that can get confused by non-strict use of names on techniques.
NOS - always uses directional mics, cardioids.
When you use a spaced pair of omnis the resulting setup can be called AB. Regardless of distance between the mics, from a few inches up to several yards.
And you can definitely use omni mics to get a good recording. If they are "true pressure omnis" (not any of the switchable types) you will have additional advantages outside as they are less effected by wind noise and mechanical noises than directional microphones. It is still a good idea to use a good windscreen though.
// Gunnar
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True, but AB generally dictates an 0deg axis setup for each microphone, rather than adding some angle, so it goes both ways. I think it's generally understood that settings like NOS/ORTF/DINa/etc have formal settings, but we bend the rules here on purpose. ;)
I think it's just an easier way to describe the angle/width of the setup as opposed to writing everything out individually (90deg, 30cm, etc). If we, as tapers, operated under the strict recording guidelines originally created, we'd never be so crazy as to take these condensers out in the rain.......or in the middle of Wooktropolis.
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"Wooktropolis"
That's cracking my head off
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I was looking around for more information on omni spacings and recording angles and found this in the "healy method" post -
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96672.15
when you start spacing the caps further, you want to start bringing the angle in from 180*
extendeding on the post above that I quoted from Hartkopf's page, first column is spacing in centemeters, second is angle from the soundsource.
from http://web.archive.org/web/20050314085929/members.aol.com/mihartkopf/lexicon.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050314085929/members.aol.com/mihartkopf/lexicon.htm)
17 180.0
20 116.4
25 85.7
30 69.0
35 58.1
40 50.3
45 44.4
50 39.8
60 32.9
70 28.1
80 24.5
90 21.8
100 19.6
of course this is all theory, do what sounds best to you in the applications you use. ;)
Any thoughts on this? My mics set up nicely around 30cm, so this table suggest a 70 degree recording angle? Without a disc will that angle and spacing produce any amount of stereo separation?
Thanks!
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The "recording angle" in this table is not how far apart to aim your mics.
It's how far apart two sound sources need to be to image far right/far left on playback, given the specified spacing of two omni microphones aimed straight ahead. So the "right" way to use this table would be decide how large of a recording angle your source material encompasses (perhaps with a cushion), and pick a distance between mics accordingly, although I do not recommend this blind approach when you have a choice. But more it's just useful to understand how changing mic spacing affects the recorded stereo width, in relative terms.
Angling omni mics will give you a slightly wider image than facing them straight ahead since omnis aren't really omnidirectional at high frequencies, but this directionality varies from mic to mic so there's no hard and fast formula for how angling omnis should affect imaging.
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What Will said.
Quick field approximation for measuring angles: the width of a fist held at arms length covers an angle of ~ 10ยบ as viewed by the squinting, angle aproximating recordist. Fists and arms vary, so calibrate yours by measuring a known angle and adjusting.
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I think omnis in a NOS looking setup would sound great.
- I listen with earbuds/headphones a lot, and too much split doesn't please me. I think 12" is probably a good compromise between DINish and wide-splits.
- Omnis will pick up more chatter around you if there is the typical crowd... that's a fact of life. A little chatter is OK, but too much really pisses me off.
I'm conservative by nature. I would probably run that way for some of the of the opening acts (the ones that I might not get around to tracking anyway), and then "go with what you know" (in my case cards/DIN) for the main acts, just in case it didn't work out as well as I had hoped. Also, a lot of festival fields are "half full" during the day, and then are "really packed" when the main acts come on at night, which is when the chatter factor increases.
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I'll be taping Mule tommorrow night. I am 3rd row center, so I have to be very low pro if I want to run any higher than head height. I will be running Church CA-14 omnis in Healey along with Church cables/Audix caps ORTF to 4 channel. I made a DIY 1/4-20 threaded rod to attach to my stand. The "T" portion at the top is 1/8" flexible Aluminum wire to which the mics will clip. I wanted to go with Healey because I will be so close. There ae 4 JBL "fill" PA's at stage lip. I expect to pick those up along with the actual on-stage sound. We'll see what happens.
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I've been running Church CA-14 omnis on a NOS mount and have loved the results.
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If it's loud enough, I've had great results with Healy both indoors and outdoors. I've also had great results outdoors with near-NOS (omni) and 30cm split omni's AB. Just beware of excess chatter if you're not raised/isolated enough.
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That's why I made the thin rod stand attachment. In the dark, it will be nearly invisible. That way I can raise it up higher. Also, I just got that new TS shirt today, so surely that will KILL the chatter! >:D
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The "recording angle" in this table is not how far apart to aim your mics.
It's how far apart two sound sources need to be to image far right/far left on playback, given the specified spacing of two omni microphones aimed straight ahead.
Actually it looks like for this particular table, it's how far off center does a sound source need to be to image all the way to the side. So double it to get the stereo recording angle you may be used to from the stereophonic zoom.
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I have found that if the engineer doesn't crank it too loud you just get alot of chatter with omnis or subcards. this has made me rely on hypers or cards more and more outdoors. it is so hit or miss with engineers. I will say that i have made some smoking good recordings with omni healy method with 3' split but that was only b/c the PA was loud and there weren't people standing within 10' of my stand. bring both sets of caps and see what the soundcheck sounds like then make your decision.
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I have found that if the engineer doesn't crank it too loud you just get alot of chatter with omnis or subcards. this has made me rely on hypers or cards more and more outdoors. it is so hit or miss with engineers. I will say that i have made some smoking good recordings with omni healy method with 3' split but that was only b/c the PA was loud and there weren't people standing within 10' of my stand. bring both sets of caps and see what the soundcheck sounds like then make your decision.
Anyone here ever run directionals like A-B omnis for this reason? Say 3' spaced cards or hypers with no angle between them but facing directly ahead? That could reduce the chatter but retain some aspects of the omni A-B'ness (time difference stereo, big open sounding decorellated ambience, etc). I've seen crazier configs.
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I have found that if the engineer doesn't crank it too loud you just get alot of chatter with omnis or subcards. this has made me rely on hypers or cards more and more outdoors. it is so hit or miss with engineers. I will say that i have made some smoking good recordings with omni healy method with 3' split but that was only b/c the PA was loud and there weren't people standing within 10' of my stand. bring both sets of caps and see what the soundcheck sounds like then make your decision.
Anyone here ever run directionals like A-B omnis for this reason? Say 3' spaced cards or hypers with no angle between them but facing directly ahead? That could reduce the chatter but retain some aspects of the omni A-B'ness (time difference stereo, big open sounding decorellated ambience, etc). I've seen crazier configs.
I have heard a couple Schoeps 4v's AB split about 6' outdoor tapes and I thought they smoked!
Doesn't Sonicsound on here run mk5's NOS along with 41's or 41v's ??..... I know he mostly always seeds/posts the 4chan stuff but perhaps he could post some samples of a few of his FOB's with just the mk5's and no 41's mixed.