Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: ryansee on July 25, 2010, 03:56:41 AM
-
sorry for being so ignorant, but I have just recently decided to get into recording the concerts I attend as I go somewhat frequently and enjoy and appreciate the recordings of shows I have downloaded. I am really not very technologically knowledgeable and I am going to a concert 3 days from now - a mostly acoustic show, seated, I'll be sitting in the front, about 1,000 capacity.
I bought a used iriver 320h, rockboxed, today because I noticed some of the recordings I downloaded used this to record comparable shows to this one and it was in my price range. Now, I am pretty lost. I could take it there and record using the internal mic, but would not know how to monitor the levels on the screen, etc.
I guess my main questions right now are: what kind of external mic should I look into getting (looking to spend less than 80)? what else do I need? can I just place the recorder in my friend's purse and put the purse on the floor and just never touch it after hitting record? would someone with an iriver be able to walk me through exactly what they do when they record a show and their thought processes that are involved in their decision making?
these are the mics I am considering purchasing, the first because it is used and comes with many plugs and wires that I might need and it seems to have its own power source, the second because other setups that have used the iriver have used this mic:
1. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/msg/1859848991.html
2. http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ECM-DS70P-Electret-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B00006HOLL
(here is an example of a recording and the setup that included the sony mic and the iriver: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=244066)
thanks
-
just real quick:
-iriver is a great recorder. I'm sure there is an iriver thread down in the "team boards" section where a bunch of people who use them hang out
-$80 is pretty low for a mic, but i would avoid those sonys. look into brands like sound professionals or maybe church audio if your budget can stretch
-i'm not really familiar with the irivers, but you may need to add a battery box/preamp to the setup
-you'll probably get chopped to bits here or something for calling a recording a "bootleg" (see the sticky post)
-
oh, and welcome!
-
just real quick:
-iriver is a great recorder. I'm sure there is an iriver thread down in the "team boards" section where a bunch of people who use them hang out
-$80 is pretty low for a mic, but i would avoid those sonys. look into brands like sound professionals or maybe church audio if your budget can stretch
-i'm not really familiar with the irivers, but you may need to add a battery box/preamp to the setup
-you'll probably get chopped to bits here or something for calling a recording a "bootleg" (see the sticky post)
fixed. thanks for the advice, i'll check that section. also, just found the iriver faq now that you directed me towards the sticky, checking it out now.
-
For $80 I would order the Church CA-1's from Church Audio. Although I'm not 100% sure they are available at that price anymore. If they are a little more expensive...save a few bucks, or stand on the corner with a sign that says: "Homeless - Will Work for Food - God Bless" for a few hours. Make sure you don't shower for a few days before that. I saw a bum at McDonalds once counting out his money. He made $60 in about 5 hours.
See this thread for more info/ordering:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=134524.0
-
As has been suggested, those mics are not really good enough to get the best out of your recorder (which is capable of making great recordings).
I second the recommendation of Church audio gear. You can see what is available here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136212.0
For general purpose recordings I prefer cardioids to omnis (unless you can get pretty close to the source and there isn't too much crowd chatter going on).
If it seems a bit more than you want to spend, be aware that it compares to equipment that costs a whole lot more. I hate the cheap Sony mics-they have very poor bass response among other issues.
With most if not all of these mics you will get better performance if you also get a battery box to power them instead of relying on the recorder's plug in power. For acoustic shows you should consider getting a preamp instead of a battery box. If you have to crank up the iRiver's gain too high it will add noise to the recording.
If you got the package that includes CA-14 cards & omnis with the ST-9100, you would be set to make great recordings under almost any conditions.
Again, it may seem like a big investment to you, but if you can swing it you'll be amazed at the results you can get. If you get a mediocre mic and find that you enjoy recording, you'll be replacing it as soon as you can anyway.
-
What he said... and he said.
If you can get the CA-1's for $80, that's a good starting point. Add in $29 for an "ugly" battery box and you're laughing.
For the $100 price point, I don't think you'll find a better sounding mic. I use the CAFS myself, however, there is - according to Chris Church - little difference between the CAFS and the CA-1's...
-
If they are a little more expensive...save a few bucks
What he said. (and I guess what he said...and he said...) You can't really beat "bang for your buck" much around here than going with CA gear. I just invested in the CA-14 package (cards/omni & 9100 pre) and am incredibly happy with how my recordings have come out. As for your budget, definitely take the time and invest in the right pair of mics. You can easily throw 100 dollars away on many different mics and not get what you hope for. Unfortunately though, this is a very expensive hobby. Personally I would recommend spending as much as you can and getting a bare minimum of what you need to cover all situations. Luckily though, the CA-14 package covers those needs for about $300. That along with your iRiver and you'll be completely set (except for stands and whatnot).
If you really can't afford more than about 100 bucks heres a comp between the CA-1 (~$100) and DPA 4060 (~$450): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137619.0 (long story short though, theres not much difference).
If you're DYING to get a set of mics to get into the field, see what you can find with the CA-1 or CAFS though if its a quite show you'll probably need at the very least a battery box (on the cheap side) but preferably a pre amp (more expensive but well worth it).
-
Unfortunately though, this is a very expensive hobby. Personally I would recommend spending as much as you can and getting a bare minimum of what you need to cover all situations. Luckily though, the CA-14 package covers those needs for about $300.
It certainly can be expensive for those who want to get the very best recordings they possibly can, even though most of the money is spent on the last 5%-10% of the improvement (which may not even be noticeable for some).
Fortunately after doing research on this forum it is possible to put together a system capable of making great sounding recordings for $500 or even less. The CA-14 card/omni package with preamp for $300 coupled with $200 or less for a good recorder is very versatile and is capable of making very high quality recordings.
For those who record only very loud rock shows, you could do fine with just the CA-14 of your choice (or CA-1's or CAFS) and a battery box, although I myself prefer cardioids in most situations.
-
thank you for all of the advice, it has been very helpful.
Based on what I have read on these forums I will look into buying a church audio package, eventually. I don't have enough to buy one in the very near future, but probably within the next few months. As for tomorrow's show and the one next week I think I might just hold off on trying to record them since it would not make sense for me to buy a low quality mic that I am going to replace in the near future. It's unfortunate since I think these two shows should be very good, but either way I'll enjoy them a lot.
-
Unfortunately though, this is a very expensive hobby. Personally I would recommend spending as much as you can and getting a bare minimum of what you need to cover all situations. Luckily though, the CA-14 package covers those needs for about $300.
It certainly can be expensive for those who want to get the very best recordings they possibly can, even though most of the money is spent on the last 5%-10% of the improvement (which may not even be noticeable for some).
Fortunately after doing research on this forum it is possible to put together a system capable of making great sounding recordings for $500 or even less. The CA-14 card/omni package with preamp for $300 coupled with $200 or less for a good recorder is very versatile and is capable of making very high quality recordings.
For those who record only very loud rock shows, you could do fine with just the CA-14 of your choice (or CA-1's or CAFS) and a battery box, although I myself prefer cardioids in most situations.
What he said. :)
The CAFS are great in "tight spaces" because they can be placed almost anywhere without anybody noticing. For instance, I plan to hit an Amphitheatre show where various artists are playing in the daylight - doors @ 330. Won't get there until about 530, though. My CA-14's are possibly too big (and noticeable) in the daylight so the CAFS can be taped to my glasses and nobody is really the wiser. Of course, I'm giving up the cards pickup (to minimize nearby talking) but I'm also not gonna be shut down. Once the main act goes on around 930, I'd switch to the cards. :)
I've said the same thing... you can spend $100 on the CA-1's or $1000 on the DPA 406x's and the "difference" is very subjective at best. There may be a small improvement in clarity in the mids, however, that's nothing I can't "add" in post. I don't think the DPA's are worth 10x the price. I've owned a crapload of mics over the years and so far I must admit that the Church product are among the best ones I've owned (although I haven't owned $1000 mics).
Like fmadejr says,... $300 for the mics and preamp (or $150 for a mic and battery box) plus a $200 recorder and you're set. We've come a long way since I spent $450 on a prfessional analog walkman or $1000 on a portale DAT recorder (and the mic options didn't exist, then, either).
-
If you really can't afford more than about 100 bucks heres a comp between the CA-1 (~$100) and DPA 4060 (~$450): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137619.0 (long story short though, theres not much difference).
If you're DYING to get a set of mics to get into the field, see what you can find with the CA-1 or CAFS though if its a quite show you'll probably need at the very least a battery box (on the cheap side) but preferably a pre amp (more expensive but well worth it).
Those DPAs you refer to are actually $450 EACH. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/282482-REG/DPA_Microphones_4060_BM_4060_Omnidirectional_Miniature_High_Sensitivity.html
Not that that comp was the most telling in terms of the dynamics of the recording (recording a jazz trio with a lot of electric guitar is one thing; recording loud rock or an orchestra is quite another), the CA mics did a fantastic job. I was considering getting some to use as a 'backup pair' myself...
A couple other questions/comments:
1. To the OP: Even at a seated acoustic show where you're in the front, I would not recommend placing the mics in a bag on the floor. You really need to wear the mics to get the good results (including proper stereo separation). Even if the players are on an equal vertical plane to you (ie seated directly in front of you without a stage), that means their mouths (and the PA, if any) are going to be about in line with your head. There are some exceptions to this, but generally, you really need to headwear (or chest-wear, maybe for an occasion like you described) the mics.
2. Is everyone steering the OP toward omni mics because of cost? It is true that at the cheapest prices omni mics tend to be better performers than cardiods as they're easier to "make well." And the CA-1 is the cheapest thing one can buy new at the moment. But for the CA-11 cardiods, or other mics used, are also quite inexpensive and are likely to be more useful unless the OP gets way upfront at every show (I don't know if the one you described is typical of what you go to see). Just a thought.
...
-
Is everyone steering the OP toward omni mics because of cost? It is true that at the cheapest prices omni mics tend to be better performers than cardiods as they're easier to "make well." And the CA-1 is the cheapest thing one can buy new at the moment. But for the CA-11 cardiods, or other mics used, are also quite inexpensive and are likely to be more useful unless the OP gets way upfront at every show (I don't know if the one you described is typical of what you go to see). Just a thought.
I also much prefer cardioids in the majority of situations and both the CA-11's and CA-14's deliver great sound and are very low priced for what they deliver. You could also get the omni caps as well for the CA-11's if you go in that direction and want maximum flexibility.
-
try to get on the yard sale market place or ebay when lucky, for some nice used items for "getting started" like i did:
i found my Church Audio ca9100pre für 90 $
Church audio Ca14 mics for 110 $ (incl. clip)
also u can choose the "Ugly BBox" from Church, its more like a little frame with a 9V Battery on it and cable plugs - but easy to hide .
plug the mics into the Bbox, then via Line in to the iRiver and you are set. you should also "rockbox" your iriver there are some nice tools for better recording adjustment within this firmware.
-
also u can choose the "Ugly BBox" from Church, its more like a little frame with a 9V Battery on it and cable plugs - but easy to hide .
plug the mics into the Bbox, then via Line in to the iRiver and you are set. you should also "rockbox" your iriver there are some nice tools for better recording adjustment within this firmware.
A definite yes to the Rockbox-a great recorder with it and a pain to try to get good recordings with without it.
I would not recommend a battery box instead of a preamp with the iRiver for someone who is likely to be recording some acoustic stuff (the first show he mentioned was mostly acoustic). The iRiver is a great recorder for loud stuff but benefits greatly from a pre when recording acoustic. If you have to crank up the iRiver's gain past 24 (some even say 15-20) it starts adding a lot of noise. I always used mine with a ST-9100 and even stuff that wasn't too loud sounded great.
-
I see, thanks for the info on the mic placement, I'll be sure not to store my mic in a bag when I record. Also, I do tend to try to get right up front for the rock shows I go to, it's pretty rare that I don't.
I ended up recording that first show, not seriously, just as a souvenir and to see what it felt like. I didn't have time to buy a mic so I just put the iriver on a table right in front of the stage, with my sweater slightly covering it. So now I know from experience why I need an external mic, the bass was really bad and every 25-30 seconds the iriver makes a booting sound, possibly a fan? The acoustic songs and parts of songs are pretty listenable to me, but I don't have a trained ear. I'm gonna spend a little time looking up omni mics and cardioids.
If you really can't afford more than about 100 bucks heres a comp between the CA-1 (~$100) and DPA 4060 (~$450): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=137619.0 (long story short though, theres not much difference).
If you're DYING to get a set of mics to get into the field, see what you can find with the CA-1 or CAFS though if its a quite show you'll probably need at the very least a battery box (on the cheap side) but preferably a pre amp (more expensive but well worth it).
Those DPAs you refer to are actually $450 EACH. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/282482-REG/DPA_Microphones_4060_BM_4060_Omnidirectional_Miniature_High_Sensitivity.html
Not that that comp was the most telling in terms of the dynamics of the recording (recording a jazz trio with a lot of electric guitar is one thing; recording loud rock or an orchestra is quite another), the CA mics did a fantastic job. I was considering getting some to use as a 'backup pair' myself...
A couple other questions/comments:
1. To the OP: Even at a seated acoustic show where you're in the front, I would not recommend placing the mics in a bag on the floor. You really need to wear the mics to get the good results (including proper stereo separation). Even if the players are on an equal vertical plane to you (ie seated directly in front of you without a stage), that means their mouths (and the PA, if any) are going to be about in line with your head. There are some exceptions to this, but generally, you really need to headwear (or chest-wear, maybe for an occasion like you described) the mics.
2. Is everyone steering the OP toward omni mics because of cost? It is true that at the cheapest prices omni mics tend to be better performers than cardiods as they're easier to "make well." And the CA-1 is the cheapest thing one can buy new at the moment. But for the CA-11 cardiods, or other mics used, are also quite inexpensive and are likely to be more useful unless the OP gets way upfront at every show (I don't know if the one you described is typical of what you go to see). Just a thought.
...
-
also, my iriver is rockboxed, it came that way when I bought it last week. It has frozen a couple of times when I've used it, but not when I tried to record earlier this week. I am still trying to learn how to control the levels and figure out what is best.