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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Fitz on August 21, 2010, 12:01:22 PM
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I am just getting started, building a rig and need some help. I plan to do the majority of my recording indoors at the local venues in Seattle (Showbox, Crocodile , Tractor tavern, etc) with occasional outdoor shows at the Gorge (focus on Jambands and Bluegrass). Looking for a versatile set up that will allow me to get the best results. I picked up a Sony PCM D50 off Craigslist for $350 as my foundation, understanding that the real money should be spent on mics but, I am at a loss as to which manufacturer and model would be best. Any advise would be appreciated. Budgets is between $750-$1000; new or used; quality over quantity. Keep in mind all I have is the D50 at the momment so need to build around it.. Thanks.
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For omnis
DPA 4061s < $1000
Nevaton MCE 400s + tinybox (around $700)
for cards or hypers:
MM HLSC-1 (cards) + 9v batterybox or CA-9100 preamp (less than $500)
AT 853 cards or hypercardiods + 9v batterybox or CA-9100 pre (less than $500)
Audix 1280 card or hypercaps + Church cables + 9v batterybox or CA-9100 pre. (less than $500)
I´d say the Nevaton setup is the best deal but all these alternatives are very good starting mics!
/N
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you get a lot of opinions and answers
nevatons are nice for omnis as are the countrymabn B3's
check out this thread though
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138486.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138486.0)
tinybox or littlebox are great and could be a great way to get a better mic-pre more affordable
are you planing recording in the open on a stand or going under cover?
that will make a huge difference in mic recommendations
remember to check out LMA and search for particular mics and give a listen, may be you'l' eneven find a set up like what you want to listen to.
--Ian
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Right now I am focused on an "open stand" set up but will want to pick up a stealth set up over time. I have 100s of Gb of live shows, many of which I am sure the folks posting on this site have recorded (Thank you) I thought is was about time that I start contributing versus leaching ;D. I tend to like the Neumman and AKG sources but not sure if they are out of my price range given the versatile set up I looking for.. thoughts?
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I am very impressed with openess with which everyone shares their knowledge in this forum...
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Personally I like the neumann sound
some AKG recordings I like - sometimes they are too tinny or bright for me
I always thought that the KM140's were my favorite sounding mic - until I heard a comp posted here with the Milab VM44's
now I really like how natural the VM44's sound - and have been very happy with the results. both the neumann and the milabs are probably slightly more than you want to spend
check out team boards
and team milab here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=114343.225 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=114343.225)
you might check out busman's mics
they sound great and are affordable, and he is a great guy that will stand behind his work.
team busman http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124543.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=124543.0)
his site: http://busmanaudio.com/ (http://busmanaudio.com/)
and then get a littlebox for your mic pre and you'd have a great set up.
team Littlebox/Naiant
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130031.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130031.0)
Naiant's site
http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html (http://www.naiant.com/naiant/microphoneamplifiers.html)
again listen to stuff on the Live Music Archive [LMA]
and see what combos of gear you like
--Ian
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I tend to like the Neumman and AKG sources but not sure if they are out of my price range given the versatile set up I looking for.. thoughts?
A used pair of Neumann KM184s (cardioids) can usually be had for under $1000 (maybe as low as $800). But they don't show up in the Yard Sale all that often.
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I would grab these which is a great price BTW
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136372.0
(2)AKG 460b sn 2974,4365 one is old 3 switch style, one is the newer 1 switch. both show wear. work perfectly.
(2)a60 pretty clean, perfect threads
(2)ck3 sn 853,6364 one is considerably older than the other obviously. oddly the older looks better cosmetically, but both are near mint.
package deal for now $600
and a littlebox pre. Done.
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You may want to check out the Peluso cemc6 mics. I have a set on the yardsale at the moment for $525 (shameless commercial plug).
With a littlebox pre, you are in your price range. Another suggestion is to get a set of Church-Audio CA-14's and a CA-9100 pre (see the yardsale). That will get you a great sounding, inexpensive set of mics for now and cover stealth mics to boot. Then take your time, even a few months, researching mics such as already suggested and others yet to be suggested, and be more certain about what you might like. You may end up with less buyers remorse. Use the search function, listen to recordings of mics in your price range and keep asking questions. Most guys here have been through more than one set of mics to end up with what they are currently using. Did anyone mention that this can be a very expensive hobby?
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"again listen to stuff on the Live Music Archive [LMA]
and see what combos of gear you like.."
Ian and all, thanks for all the guidence.. I spent the better half of the day listening to various shows on LMA recorded wth AKG c460, Neumann U89i, DPA 4023 Busman BSC and Milab VM-44 Link and they all sound steller in their own right. I need to spend more time taking it in but really appreciate everyones guidence, please keep it coming.
Any idea what a pair of Milab V44 Links would set me back?
Fitz
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Ian and all, thanks for all the guidence.. I spent the better half of the day listening to various shows on LMA recorded wth AKG c460, Neumann U89i, DPA 4023 Busman BSC and Milab VM-44 Link and they all sound steller in their own right. I need to spend more time taking it in but really appreciate everyones guidence, please keep it coming.
Of those mics, the U89i and the 4023 will be well outside of your budget. It is still worth listening to recordings with them to form some idea of what is possible and the general direction that you want your tapes to sound like.
You can go in a number of different directions as of now. The D50 was a good pickup; it has a very nice A/D stage and I have never had any problems with the internal preamp when going mic-in or line-in. It can handle a hell of a signal so an external preamplifier is not absolutely necessary with it.
I agree with you that you should place most of your money in microphones. The issue is that an external preamplifier would eat up a good chunk of what you have budgeted for mics. I would suggest spending around $100 on a simple battery box like a Denecke PS-2 and a pair of attenuators, and then run mics > battery box > recorder (line-in). This way, you could spend most of your budget on a nice set of mics that you will have for a long time and then pick up a preamplifier as funds allow.
In addition to the mics that you listed above, I would also recommend that you listen to the Neumann km184 and the Microtech Gefell M300. Used pairs of each should be in your price range if you forgo the preamplifier in favor of the battery box. The only preamps that I would look at in your price range are the Naiant Littlebox or a used Sound Devices MP-2, but as I said, it is not absolutely necessary given the good preamplifier and A/D stage of the D50.
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Any idea what a pair of Milab V44 Links would set me back?
Fitz,
I got mine thru Full Compass via my rep Ron V - when you talk to a rep you can usually get a lower than web pricing - I got them there because at the time they were one of the few places to get them in the US + they had a deal with their credit card (thru GE capital) for no interest for a year.
pricing looks like it is the same for either the VM-44 Links "active style" capsules
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/362416.html (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/362416.html)
or the classic (body and mic together)
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/337331.html (http://www.fullcompass.com/product/337331.html)
they show $829 each
you might also check with Dirk (TNJazz) here at TS or at his site http://www.bigpurpledog.com/MILAB_SDC/VM44_Link.html (http://www.bigpurpledog.com/MILAB_SDC/VM44_Link.html)
when I got mine
I believe my pair was just under $1300 something like $1285 including shipping.
I opted for the no matched pair, when I sent mine in for service I had a loaner pair sent to me that were a matched pair and when I compared the mic plots for my 2 and the matched pair mine were certainly within the same tolerance of the matched pair.
I like the links and the "active" style capsule as it allows me to be less obtrusive when needed, and when not needed I am less obtrusive anyway -'cause the caps are fairly small! ;)
--Ian
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right now in the YS ed is selling his Schoeps CMR /Tinybox set up
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138551.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138551.0)
but for $1300 you get no caps
but is one heck of a deal since you'd be ready to roll - if you like the schoeps sound - but the caps would likely set you back another $1500 - $2000
;)
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I've got some AKG481s that I'd be willing to part with for $900, and would include cables and tbar.
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my thoughts...first, pic several different mics (that you can afford AND are willing to spend), and go sample some recordings made with those mics, paying special note to the mic preamp (if any) that was used in the recording you sample. may i suggest in addition to the neumann's and akg's you mentioned, try and find some recordings made with Beyerdynamic mc930 (cardiod) mics, Microtech Gefell MG300, and Peluso cemc-6 (cardiod caps). the mc930's and mg300's will stretch your top end budget, but are well worth the cash and can be found in the YS for good price and good used condition. the Peluso gear is a little cheaper AND also comes interchangeable caps...nice option.
second, then try and squeeze from your finances enough cash for a preamp...imo, the Naint Littlebox is hard to beat. i think you will find many folks here that agree it is very nice gear, sounds great, and holds its own against many of the $1000 + preamps on the market today...and the customer support is top notch. i dont own one, but read for yourself...the info is in the TS.
in short...beyerdynamic mc930's (which can be obtained for appx $600 used) + Naint Littlebox (appx $200 new based upon requested feature design) + Sony PCM-D50 = a sweet high quality field recording rig
hope this helps.
rich
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I agree with a lot that has been said. The D50 in particular is an excellent choice. I'm sure it would be fine (to very good) used just with a phantom power box like the Denecke PS2. I'd really recommend though the Naiant littlebox, which is an excellent sounding preamp, and an even better deal for the money. I'd further recommend the internal li-ion battery option for $50 that will give you power for 10-20 hours at a charge (and then you won't need to be buying 9v batteries or figuring out an external battery supply). So about $270 shipped I think.
A used pair of AKG 460s with the ck61 cardioid caps for about $600-650 used is an option (or get the pair of AKGs noted above).
One other thought is to get the ADK A51TL mics that are in the yardsale for $450 (no affiliation, don't even know the seller). The ADK TL's are just an excellent set of mics, a complete and total bargain for the price, and they give you 4 mic patterns to choose from, which can be useful in many taping situations and will allow you to learn what you like in terms of mic patterns in case you ever want to change to a different set of mics.
$450 for TLs + $270 for littlebox = a bit over $700. Leaves some room for gear bag, stand, t-bar, etc, and will still leave more money in your pocket than you allotted (a rare thing for recommendations around here ;) ). And it will make for an excellent rig.
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Not yet mentioned are my versatile headworn or baffle mic stand mounted (same set can be used for both purposes) Sonic Studios DSM mics. Baffle can be made of wrapped-twine bound up on mic stand cotton towel.
One advantage is D50 direct powering of these mics with NO performance hit common of other mics requiring higher mic powering for fullest loudness handling.
Model DSM-6S/L is suggested as appropriate for your interests using deck setting on 24 bit depth, and mic input setting in LOW or 20 dB (preamp gain switch function) giving this deck's lowest distortion, widest frequency bandwidth, and maximum input headroom.
See retail section for more details on two piece DSM mic + flash deck compatible rigs: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=83254.0
Many hundreds of sample music recordings made with headworn or baffled DSM mics found at www.sonicstudios.com/mp3_2slp.htm
Using a DSM mic array gives you the best for having both very low profile and mic-stand mounted recording ability.
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i totally agree with Todd R with respect to leftover cash for things like shock mounts, mic cables, windscreens, mic stand, memory cards, etc. also, once you get your core rig thought out, purchased, and assembled...i highly recommend finding a gear bag that adequately stores and protects your gear. it does not have to be flashy. it does not have to be a porta brace, petrol, kata, etc. your local camera store and/or REI and/or whatever has plenty of options. i am a big fan of gear bags that now have a built in rain cover...rain does not fall in indoor arenas, but beverages often do. good luck and have fun.
rich
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just saw Dean was selling his ADKs he keep his gear very clean and is a trustworthy and upstanding guy
get his mics here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138580.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138580.0)
and a little box and you'll be good to go!
here are a number of LMA recordings with the ADK's
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=ADK%20AND%20collection%3Aetree (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=ADK%20AND%20collection%3Aetree)
and of Dean's recordings on LMA ( various rigs)
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=grabski (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=grabski)
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Agree with much of what has been said here. I don't know your background in taping, but one consideration not to be overlooked is the old adage "buy nice or buy twice". This advice is advice I should have taken myself but didn't. I had taped enough that I knew I would be taping a good bit and generally liked what it was about.... but ended up buying tons of different gear in rapid succession until I ended up with what I have now, Schoeps and DPAs.
I'm not suggesting you get Schoeps and DPAs - but I would say that if there is a set of mics you *really like* that is a slight reach for you (maybe, for instance, the Neumann 184s) it's worth waiting a couple extra months to get that rather than ending up making "incremental" upgrades.
The Naiant littlebox is a solid product that is probably worth the investment no matter what mics you get; it's small, easy to use, inexpensive, and high quality.
To that and the excellent D50, I'd get the absolute best mics *that you personally like* that you can afford. Meaning, if to your ears something less expensive or not from one of the best-known German/Danish manufacturers is your favorite, go that route. I have zero knowledge of the Milabs or ADKs, but those are two examples of slightly less "big name" products that many love.
To give a simpler answer to your questions, if you're buying new and you get a littlebox, that leaves you with cash for Pelusos or Busmans. If you're buying used and willing to wait, you can probably get some AKG 460s in that range as well. Again, it really depends on what you like. There is something to be said for buying new, in terms of warranty service and knowing how the product has been treated. However, I've bought both of my high end mic sets on this board in the YS and had zero problems.
Also, if you like the sound of themdix 1280s are in the range, new, and they have the advantage of being easily usable for low-pro work, especially if you get a Church $65 active cable and a small battery box.
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Great stuff guys.. I am seriously considering the Nevaton MCE-400 microphones in the yard sale as a set of stealth mics (waiting to hear back form BC). The little/tiny box preamp.. as for the stand set up, I am still up in the air and will listen to some LMA shows with the ADKs adn follwo up.. For some reason my brain is pushing me to over spend and buy some Neumann KM187.. someone talk me out ot that :-X
Thanks again,
Fitz
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Acid Jack,
You make a great point hence the reason form my hesitiation on the open set up, I will most likely streatch myself however the Nevaton MCE-400 mics sound really good and will cover a stealth set up and get me into the game with up comming Hot Buttered Rum show.'
Thanks for the food for thought..
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More food for thought: I wouldn't recommend omni mics generally for open taping (like the mce400).
For stealth taping, omni mics are much more forgiving for head/body movement if you've got the mics mounted on your head/person. Also with stealth, you may well (thinking GA shows here) have the ability to get into the "impact" zone and be very close to speaker/PA stacks where you've got a good ratio of music to chatter. For open taping though, you'll often be in a taping section, probably further back, and in those instances I don't think omnis are usually the best choice.
I really don't know anyone who uses omnis for indoor, open taping on a regular basis (for 2 channel anyway), particularly for open taping back in a taping section. Omnis outdoors, omnis on-stage, omnis as part of a 4 mic mix with some direction mics, yes. But generally for open, taperssection taping, people are using directional mics like cardioid mics or hyper-cardioid mics.
You might want to do some listening to omni recordings in general (regardless of brand) for indoor shows -- check out Archive.org for instance.
Sounds like you might want to get the nevatons to get you covered for stealth and get different mics for open, which isn't a bad plan. But if you end up using your Nevaton omnis for indoor, open taping in the short term, you might be a bit disappointed with your recordings, esp if people are anywhere near as chatty for bluegrassy bands out your way as they are in CO.
Also, if you're on a limited budget, you might put some consideration on how you'd like to split up your funds for stealth mics vs open mics, depending on what type of recording you're expecting to do. As in, split the funds evenly; put more towards open with a more modest stealth set up; or get a high-end stealth set up and put little to no money towards the open set up.
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^^^ Also true. The one good thing about going the Nevatons route is, I think they are at least generally accepted to be good enough that you won't be itching to "upgrade" them for quite awhile - you can keep them and get some new cards later, rather than get cheap cards, dump them at a loss, and get more cards. I had my DPA 4061s before my HQ cardiod mics, and I plan to keep them pretty much indefinitely. Small, HQ omni mics are easier and cheaper to make... IMHO there is a lot more variation in the quality of cardiod mics, and it is much harder to have a small, cheap cardiod mic that shines in open-taping scenarios than a small, cheap, omni mic that will be damn good if used right (which probably means, headworn or other applications like onstage... not being in a taping section).
You can get some good recordings with the Nevatons without investing in a stand or the other accoutrements of the hobby, and heck, you CAN open tape with them (especially outdoors) in a taping section type scenario and it won't be abysmal, probably - just not ideal.
It's worth noting that the open-taping applications of small omnis can be improved by the use of a Jecklin disc or "J-disc", or other types of boundary mounts, which can make them more directional.
Anyway, while you're enjoying your Nevatons, you can always be saving up for the killer cardiods you really want...
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check out the countryman B3's
read this thread
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138486.0 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138486.0)
and listen to some of Richard's samples with them
personally I get some sweet open mics first then worry about the low profile $teAlth stuff later
-Ian