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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: HarpNinjaMike on November 16, 2010, 10:01:40 PM
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The bar is rectangular and holds about 100 people. I want to record a live band (four piece electric rock) as best I can. Since it is so small, all that usually goes through the PA is vocals and maybe guitar...the PA doesn't have subs...just two 12" mains.
I have access to a Zoom 4Hn, Zoom Q3, a line out from the PA, mic stands and cables. I have an SM57 too, but that isn't going to do me much good.
What's the best approach for the best sound knowing I don't have good outboard mics? I can have the recorders anywhere, including onstage.
My thoughts were to take the vocals off the board, have one recorder FOH and maybe one closer to the band? Would have one recorder overhead onstage be worth the effort? I can ultimately get two stereo mixes from two different spots as well as two more tracks from the inputs of the H4n.
I admit to being a total newb who has taped two shows...one where the recorder was too close to the mains in a small room (vocals were way hot), and one in a medium club that sounded great (didn't lineout from the board for either).
Thanks!
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will you have someone be able to run the gear? or is this a set it an forget it type of thing?
I'd just set a rig up in the sweet spot on a stand and go for it
unless you wan to do a lot of post 2 tracks is all you need
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Being so green to this, if I do more than 2 tracks, it'll give me more to practice in Audacity later...but I don't really know what I am doing.
Regarding placing a recorder, I can take a feed from the board pretty easily. Would having the recorder 5'-10' from the band and a line out from the board be a bad idea? That way, I get the stage mix without too much of the PA, but can add the PA in post.
I want to be real clear though, that while I've tried to think through some of this, I don't really know what I am doing.
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I would use the H4n to record 4 channels. Use the onboard mics to record the instruments, and use the line in from the mixer to get the vocals. Set up the H4n on a small stand in front of the band, using a bass drum type of mic stand and the provided mic stand adapter with onboard mics centered and pointed slightly raised like toward waiste level.
Make sure you have long enough cables from the mixer and enough space on your card. You may want to get a set of attenuators in case the levels from the mixer are a bit hot for the H4n.
The provided software should be sufficient to mix the four tracks down to a stereo mix comprised mostly of the mics (aud) and a little of the mixer (sbd) to lift the vocals in the mix a bit.
Good luck and have fun.
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Thanks! That is all doable. The band won't be super loud. I think there is a good spot for the recorder about 3-5' from the stage at just about waist level (slightly off center. There is a powered floor monitor, so I can actually take a direct mic level lineout for just the vocals straight to the recorder.
I might take a line from the guitar too, since the recorder will probably be closer to the bass and drums.
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I think there is a good spot for the recorder about 3-5' from the stage at just about waist level (slightly off center. There is a powered floor monitor, so I can actually take a direct mic level lineout for just the vocals straight to the recorder.
Keep in mind the closer you are with the H4n internal mics the better...5 feet may sound close in theory, but may be too far due to bleed from the crowd. Try to get the H4n mics as close as you can...onstage would be ideal.
A line level feed from the monitor would be fine, not sure I would even bother with a line from the guitar.
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Oh, sweet. I can totally get the H4n on stage! I have to make sure the input on the mics is low enough that they don't distort, correct? I am not doubting your ballsiness and expertise, but I hadn't read anything about having digital handheld recorders so close to the action.
I taped another band's show last weekend with the recorder 15' from stage right infront of the soundman. I had it aimed at the inside corner of a main. It turned out GREAT except the vocals - they didn't sound "great" FOH either due to the mix.
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^^ Just one caveat to the onstage idea - aren't the H4N's onboard mics cardiod mics in an X/Y config? That does mean you'll need the mics at least somewhat in front of the soundstage (like, right in front of the performers) and not, say, in the middle of the stage as would be possible with omnis.
It looks like you can also widen the polar pattern of the H4N mics; I would do that.
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Why go 120 instead of 90? I tried reading through some FAQ sources on the board here. It would seem that doing so would make it sound more "stereo" when recording close up.
Here is what I got using 90 from about 15' from the stage. The H4n is way off to the side against a wall aimed at the inside of the nearest PA main.
http://mikefugazzi.com/files/Slippin Away.mp3 (http://mikefugazzi.com/files/Slippin Away.mp3)
http://mikefugazzi.com/files/Roadhouse Blues.mp3 (http://mikefugazzi.com/files/Roadhouse Blues.mp3)
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Chris K is on it, do that.
FYI, cardioids arranged as X/Y with 90 degrees between capsules produce a stereo recording angle of 180 degrees. The stereo recording angle is an imaginary angle that includes all the sound locations that will be spread between the speakers when reproduced. Sounds outside that region are also picked up and reproduced, but are clumped near one speaker or the other. That means if the recorder is at the front edge of the stage, set to use the internal cardioid mics in a 90 degree X/Y configuration, the stereo recording angle will cover the entire stage. Every sound eminating from the stage (within the 180 degree angle) will come from somewhere between the speakers when played back. At one extreme, that can make a 90degree cardioid X/Y recording solidly center heavy and perhaps slighly mono-ish sounding, which can be an advantage sometimes.
The relationship of the X/Y angle between capsules and stereo recording angle is inverse. That is to say that as the capsule angle is increased to 120 degrees, the stereo recording angle decreases, narrowing the range of sounds on stage in front of the recorder that will fill the region between the speakers. In effect it sort or stretches out the the on-stage regions on either side of center to fill the space between the speakers and reporduces sounds that originate at the outer edge of the now narrower recording angle near or in the speakers. Again that can be good or bad, depending. Since you'll have a board feed which will be mono, you will probably want things spread out well in the on-stage recording so I'd suggest the 120 degree setting if you had to choose one. But why not try 90 degrees for the first set and 120 degrees for the second set, keeping everything else the same and see how the sound changes. That can make for a great learning experience.
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Any reason you couldn't hang it from the ceiling? Best POV IMO. Not in the direct line of sight for the PAs. In proximity of the acoustic element on stage. And a better balance from crowd noise. And you can see it from any part of the room, in case someone was thinking about walking off with it.
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The OP didn't mention hanging from the ceiling, and if that were the case then he would have a cable going from the monitor for the sbd feed to the ceiling where the H4n is hanging, which I would annoy the hell out of me....but to each his own.
Back to X/Y config...for cardiods my experience is 90* X/Y works well as it seems to reduce some of the boominiess of the bass drum when you are in close proximity to it. Ideally I do like split omni's but the H4n does not have that capability without a separate preamp and set of omni mics. I have used a loaner H4n in the capacity that the OP is intending to record my own band and it does fine. I think the OP will be pleased with the results if all works well.
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Here are two YouTubes from the bar/club so you can get the visual. This is my old band. The second one is worth watching, I swear to you. You won't want to miss it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QyIrYGwsLk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-2l1PmHajs
You can see the mains on either side just above head level. The powered mixer is just in front of the guitarist on the floor...about waste level. It is a small 100 person room with a small stage...but a really fun place to play.
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A hazardous job when the dancer drinks. :P
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(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7QyIrYGwsLk/0.jpg)
I know I am an idiot here, but just so I understand...the stage will look like this except the guitar player and bassist will be on opposite sides. Otherwise, the drums, singer, and amp behind the singer will be identical. The mains are hard to see, but they are in front of the band in the upper left-hand corner, and sorta inline with the band in the upper right-hand corner.
I was thinking of using a stick stand on the floor against the front of the stage between where the guitar player and frontman (me) are in this pic. It would essentially be right at waist level and the H4n overhang would have it on stage.
At this point, the bass amp would and bass drum would be pointed right at the internal mics. There would for sure be bleed from the harmonica amp/vocal monitor, and the guitar amp would be on the other side of the drums (probably a bad spot for the mix). With the two xlr inputs, though, I can easily take a line from the guitar and vox/harp into the mixer.
Other options would include...
A.) Putting the mic stand higher (about 6'), or putting it on stage between the bass player and myself (anywhere from 3' to 6' high).
B.) I could also probably get it to sit a couple of feet above the band pretty much dead center.
C.)In theory, I could also set up the Q3 to record as well. I could set both Zoom devices to mono and essentially have four separate tracks to work with...
1.) a direct line from the vocals/harmonica into Zoom 4Hn
2.) a direct line from a miked guitar into Zoom 4Hn
3.) mono Zoom internal mics to get the drums
4.) mono Zoom internal mics to get the bass
Any specific advise will be appreciated! The last thought is the most work, BUT gives me the most control over the final sound.
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That's a bit of a tight squeeze. It also appears to have high ceilings. So low tech solutions are pretty much out. Access to the more ideal realestate by mic stand alone. Or human subbing in as a mic stand. Which gets old quick if you want the whole set and not just a key song or two. Taking a feed from the mixer is probably as good as it gets.
You could rig up some 9'-15' mic stand with a boom arm to swing over the band. But you'd probably have to tuck a leg under one of the heavier amps. Not ideal as those vibrations translate through the stand. And shock mounting a H4n or other recorder might be easier said than done. Plus suspending the recorder from the boom arm. With all necessary safety precautions of course. Extra crazy since the bathrooms seem to be right next to and behind the stage.
I'm used to more converted bowling alley type bars. Where the stage is a divot in the structure between a storage room and the kitchen, followed by the bathrooms and pool tables all down a long stretch of a bar. But still a relatively small bar. At best 3x pool tables. Normally 1 or 2. With the usual 12' ceilings with 9' of human space after the drop ceiling. A couple of cheap clamps and some string or coat hangers to rig up just off the ceiling there. And fairly safe outside of any wild arm flailing type dancers. Or 7' basketball types. Obviously not an option for you.
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Go with your initial thought. Zoom on a waist high-ish stand somewhere around the front of the stage with a clear view of the bass amp and drums, and hopefully the guitar amp as well. Move it off center so your body doesn't block it's sightline to the drum kit, especially the snare. Record the PA feed to the additional stereo track on the Zoom for vocal reinforcement. Use only the one recorder to save yourself the agravation of alignment and sync.. if you want to run the second recorder, run it seperately slightly farther back in the room where you get the best combined sound from an audience perspective including the PA.
The most challenging part could be keeping the drunk erotic dancer away from the waist high recorder on a stick.
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Go with your initial thought. Zoom on a waist high-ish stand somewhere around the front of the stage with a clear view of the bass amp and drums, and hopefully the guitar amp as well. Move it off center so your body doesn't block it's sightline to the drum kit, especially the snare. Record the PA feed to the additional stereo track on the Zoom for vocal reinforcement. Use only the one recorder to save yourself the agravation of alignment and sync.. if you want to run the second recorder, run it seperately slightly farther back in the room where you get the best combined sound from an audience perspective including the PA.
The most challenging part could be keeping the drunk erotic dancer away from the waist high recorder on a stick.
Sounds like a plan. This will be very easy for me to setup and arrange...barring drunk people. At least it will be close enough to the band to catch if need be, lol.
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Got there and it was wall to wall people...there was no way I was going to have time/resources to set up the Zoom and figure out the PA out to the recorder....I sorta panicked as I was not sure how to get a feed from the PA and was in such a rush, I had no time to experiment. Added to that was an issue getting my monitor to work.
I set up the Zoom in front of the band and got a wonderful bass/drum mix. The guitar amp was in a bad spot for the recorder. The vocals were ok, but the mains were so high, I wasn't getting much with the mic volume set so low since it was close to the bass/drums.
I had thought about putting it in the room and getting a room recording, but there were so many people - many not sober - I didn't want to risk it. Between sets, I was so busy talking to people I put off trying to experiment further. At the end of the night, I took some time to figure out the PA head and could totally take a line from the PA next time.
I would have never thought of having the recorder so close to the band like that, but the bass/drums sounded fantastic on the Zoom. I loved having the recorder close to the band for its safety, and we had plenty of outlets so I didn't have to use batteries. Awesome!!! Thanks!!!
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did you figure out the qsc monitor issue?
Next time you rehearse take a bit of time beforehand to set up the recorder just like you would for a gig. It will help calm yernerves next time and remember practice makes perfect.