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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: greatape on November 22, 2010, 11:55:49 PM
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I've been taping with CA11 Cardioids>STC9000>H320 for a few years now. In ideal conditions my recordings can be great, but in more challenging situations I'm not always happy. I'd like to do better. The main thing I feel I'm lacking is lots of punch from the bass and drums. I have a couple ideas of things I feel may help. Obviously, one would be add a feed from the soundboard. I've also wondered about having some mics and recorder on stage where they would be closer to the bass and drums. Keep in mind my "home venue" is very small so the SBD mix is probably less than ideal. I've put together a couple possible rigs and I'd appreciate any comments or advice that you have.
Two Sony PCM-M10's
One for my CA mics/pre in audience and one for either SBD or on stage (I guess my iRiver would still work for one of these but I figure the two Sony's would sync better and they're 24 bit)
Sony PCM-M10 - $200
8GB Micro SDHC - $25
Total = $225x2 = $440
OR
Tascam DR-2d 4 track recorder - $200
16GB SDHC - $30
Energizer xp8000 battery - $70 (It seems AA batteries are a major pain with the 2d and this would be much easier)
Total = $300
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I'd probably go with the DR2D. Having the board and audience recordings on the same clock is a huge benefit. The two M10 recordings will not clock exactly the same, and you will have to stretch one out in post.
With the updated firmware, AAs are not really a pain with the DR2D unless you need more than 5 hours at a pop.
That said, the benefit to two M10s is that you aren't restricted to setting up your mics near the board. But dealing with the two clocks is time consuming in post, and hard to get just exactly perfect. And you could always use the H320 if the board is a really bad place for mics.
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Maybe just upgrade to the CA14. I have read they have better bass response.
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Lining up two sources in post isn't that difficult. Two decks does give you the freedom to run SBD and then anywhere else without a long cable run.
But, if you are setting up by the board there is a good chance you'll be able to run an AC adapter if you get the DR2D. And while lining up two sources and stretching/shrinking one isn't that difficult, it can be tedious.
Another option would be to get a DR-08 for $99 for board feeds and an M10 for the mics. That would make your first option equal in price to the second and leave enough for CA-14s if you want to get some mics and keep the budget around $450
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Another option would be to get a DR-08 for $99 for board feeds and an M10 for the mics. That would make your first option equal in price to the second and leave enough for CA-14s if you want to get some mics and keep the budget around $450
I like that idea!
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All the great advice so far is much appreciated.
I should add that I do have some experience in dealing with drift. I almost always record with two or three video cameras so I already deal with it between them and my audio in Sony Vegas. I'm just a little hesitate to introduce yet another source of drift to correct. That's why an affordable 4 track recorder like the dr2d is so appealing. Good to hear that battery issues have made some progress, but nowhere near the 20+ hours from the M10. I hadn't even looked at the DR-08 before now so I don't know about its run time....
And I know that Sony Vegas time stretch is used by many and supposedly doesn't deteriorate quality, but I can sometime find oddities. Most often it is in something like a long bass note - not sure how to describe the sound - kind of fragmented instead of smooth like the original. I should dig up a sample....
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I used to deal with drift syncing up my FR2LE and R09. as you allude to, the stretching sometimes didn't quite sound absolutely right - not horribly off, but I'm definitely happier with my matrices now. And sooo much easier and faster.
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I've been taping with CA11 Cardioids>STC9000>H320 for a few years now. In ideal conditions my recordings can be great, but in more challenging situations I'm not always happy. I'd lack to do better. The main thing I feel I'm lacking is lots of punch from the bass and drums.
Let's back up a little. The problem is no punch from bass and drums. To me that would point first of all to the mics, or to something rolling off the bass along the way. Make sure any preamp or battery box doesn't have bass roll-off activated. The recorder should be getting what you put into it.
The CA-11 specs do list their frequency response as 20-20,000 Hz, but I would test them and see if the low frequencies are rolled off, because it is difficult to get deep bass out of lower-priced cardioid mics. Do you have (or can you borrow) a musical instrument with bass notes? Or do you have a recording with a deep descending scale (Led Zep, "Dazed and Confused")? Just play a scale going down and see if some of the lower notes start to sound quieter below a certain spot. Concerts are probably going to be using subwoofers that go even lower than 20Hz, but you do want full response at least to 20 Hz.
You probably already know this, but every doubling of the frequency is an octave. So from A440 on a piano, one octave down is 220, then 110, then 55, then 27.5 (the lowest note on a piano). If the mic or preamp starts rolling off the bass at, for instance, 80 hz, you are losing an octave and a half. Check out your original source before you start laying out a lot for a recorder.
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I do play bass guitar. I don't notice any decrease in volume if I go down the scale, which takes me down to a low E of around 40 hz if I'm not mistaken. Solo recordings of my bass are deep and punchy.
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Well, then, so much for that hypothesis.
It just seems strange to me, given how bass-heavy most concerts are now, that you're getting recordings without enough bass. Usually it's the opposite problem, hence all the recording equipment with bass roll-off. I'd still look at your source signal first of all.
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I used to deal with drift syncing up my FR2LE and R09. as you allude to, the stretching sometimes didn't quite sound absolutely right - not horribly off, but I'm definitely happier with my matrices now. And sooo much easier and faster.
Can't tell you which way to go, but the above echos my experience. FWIW, I'm using that Energizer battery pack with the DR2d, works great & runs for days. Still need to keep charged AA's in the recorder as back-up.
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Well, then, so much for that hypothesis.
It just seems strange to me, given how bass-heavy most concerts are now, that you're getting recordings without enough bass. Usually it's the opposite problem, hence all the recording equipment with bass roll-off. I'd still look at your source signal first of all.
Well, although your suggested experiment didn't lead me to finding uneven bass response, I was only recording solo bass. It could be demonstrating that my bass response is even, but bass in general just isn't being picked up as easily as highs. I have always found it strange that so many other people need to use bass rolloff. This is the only rig I've had so it's all I've known first hand. When I first talked to Chris Church about the types of music I would be recording he did promise me this rig would handle all the bass and loudness I could throw at it without distorting. That is definitely true - even the extreme volume of Buckethead records very clearly.
I'm almost always the only taper around here so I've only been able to compare my recordings to others two or three times. Honestly, I've found my recordings to be as good or better than other rigs that cost much more than mine. So I guess it's not that my recordings are bad, I'm just really going for perfection here.
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I used to deal with drift syncing up my FR2LE and R09. as you allude to, the stretching sometimes didn't quite sound absolutely right - not horribly off, but I'm definitely happier with my matrices now. And sooo much easier and faster.
Can't tell you which way to go, but the above echos my experience. FWIW, I'm using that Energizer battery pack with the DR2d, works great & runs for days. Still need to keep charged AA's in the recorder as back-up.
Yeah, even with so much love for the M10 it's very hard to ignore the advantage of 4 tracks. And maybe I'm being overly picky about the battery life of the Tascam.
One of the other things leading me to two M10's was be the flexibility to record onstage while also being back by the board with my mics or SBD feed. Others have pointed out the option of patching into the snake so that kind of helps out the case for the single Tascam again.
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Hi i am interested in this comparison. Is the Sony a sonically superior recorder?
Cheers
Dom
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I'm just going to add my .02 for the all-in-one box option. Much easier. Stretch, etc. can work, but I don't think it's as easy or perfect as it's being made out to be, especially the longer a show gets.
Also, *generally* I tend to think having two decks in two different places is a bad idea unless you have people in both places to watch the decks. For one, you can't check levels - which will vary a ton more with a board feed or onstage mics than, say, mics in the audience. And two, well, things like people, beer, etc. tend to have an adverse effect on unattended portable electronic devices.
I used to deal with drift syncing up my FR2LE and R09. as you allude to, the stretching sometimes didn't quite sound absolutely right - not horribly off, but I'm definitely happier with my matrices now. And sooo much easier and faster.
Can't tell you which way to go, but the above echos my experience. FWIW, I'm using that Energizer battery pack with the DR2d, works great & runs for days. Still need to keep charged AA's in the recorder as back-up.
Yeah, even with so much love for the M10 it's very hard to ignore the advantage of 4 tracks. And maybe I'm being overly picky about the battery life of the Tascam.
One of the other things leading me to two M10's was be the flexibility to record onstage while also being back by the board with my mics or SBD feed. Others have pointed out the option of patching into the snake so that kind of helps out the case for the single Tascam again.
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I used to deal with drift syncing up my FR2LE and R09. as you allude to, the stretching sometimes didn't quite sound absolutely right - not horribly off, but I'm definitely happier with my matrices now. And sooo much easier and faster.
Can't tell you which way to go, but the above echos my experience. FWIW, I'm using that Energizer battery pack with the DR2d, works great & runs for days. Still need to keep charged AA's in the recorder as back-up.
Battery life is fine using Energizer Lithiums with the DR2D. I may be partial but if you use a pair of Schoeps MK4s I think you will be fine with the low end response.
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I'm just going to add my .02 for the all-in-one box option. Much easier. Stretch, etc. can work, but I don't think it's as easy or perfect as it's being made out to be, especially the longer a show gets.
Also, *generally* I tend to think having two decks in two different places is a bad idea unless you have people in both places to watch the decks. For one, you can't check levels - which will vary a ton more with a board feed or onstage mics than, say, mics in the audience. And two, well, things like people, beer, etc. tend to have an adverse effect on unattended portable electronic devices.
Both valid points, for certain. But to play devils advocate, just having both stereo pairs on the same clock doesn't solve everything. What do you do when the mic pair moves during the music? Granted it's still easier on a single clock than the "two M10" solution. . . But I have had good results sync'ing two clocks once, and using the ratio to do the rest of the material from the gig.
If the SBD area is in danger of beer, there are bigger problems than a sony M10. That's the unattended one. The microphone pair is the same game as if you didn't have a board feed. Yeah, sometimes it's way easier to set up near the board, and that's when a good 4-channel unit is great. But the Tascam DR-2D ain't it. I've gotta have two sets of line ins. But I'm a guy with a good pair of mics and a preamp, so that's my world.
Just checking in now that I have pulled the trigger on my second PCM-M10 (black.) Full Compass has it for $202.30 but I'm in 'sconnie so I'd have to pay sales tax if I drove over there. Sweetwater got me $210 delivered and I don't have to drive across town. Bam. I don't think I can still get a weird little sony case like I got from the first one, but I'll check if they're still givin' em out.
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Hi i am interested in this comparison. Is the Sony a sonically superior recorder?
Cheers
Dom
M10 is at its best in front of a warm preamplifier. Really clean, fast ADC, does not add any color to the sound. Very low noise. Goes perfectly with transformer based preamps, IMO. That's why have the M10. I have an Aerco and a Littlebox pimped out with Jensons.
On the other hand, Tascam sounds wonderful going straight in, no preamp at all. Nice warm sound. When I had the 2d's predecessor, the DR-1, I recorded two shows using strictly a Denecke PS-2 phantom power module in the chain...........and was stunned with the positive results. This unit's sound will make those on a budget very happy.
Bottom line: You can't go wrong with either. Its up to you to find the actual sound you enjoy and want to share. With today's technology, its getting down to not what's the better equipment, what's the best sound for me. Happiness is in the ear of the beholder. 8)
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If manual sync'ing isn't an issue for you, you might consider one M10 and one DR2d. Cost is about the same, and doing that that gives you two seperate recorders wth a total of 6 channels, 4 sync'ed.. plus the slightly different sonic flavors mentioned to play with. Drawback is the different operating methods and run-times of the different decks- there is certainly something to be said for identical gear when running complex multi-channel rigs.