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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Grayslakepete on December 26, 2010, 03:31:38 PM
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Hello everyone, I am new to here so excuse me if i make any mistakes on posting.
I have been asked to videotape national rock acts at a small venue by me.
I have been doing a few shows with access upstairs, setup is in the corner, with the soundboard under me on the first floor. also about 500ft from the stage.
I have been given access to plug into the soundboard but have been having problems.
My equipment is basic, a Canon elura dvtape camcorder and a tripod.
I have been able to record ok but using a lot of software to clean up.
I have tried using a XLR cable from the soundboard to my camera with bad results " not stereo and very loud"
I tried two female XLR cables to one stereo cable to the camera still no go.
The soundboard guy is not very helpful and i don't know enough about their equipment to even ask the right questions.
I am looking to purchase a Zoom H1 to help with the sound but wondering if there is any other suggestions about the audio.
Also looking to purchase a Canon Rebel T2i, to record with in HD. Reason for this camera, i do a lot of photos for bands so it gives me the flexablity i need.
I am on a budget, but i really enjoy doing what i do as a hobby. So any help in this would be great.
Thanks,
GP
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"not stereo and very loud"
it sounds like the board feed may be mono
for the loudness, pick up a volume attenuator at radioshack (should be like $20)
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Sounds like it might be easier to have a recorder at the board and mix the audio with the video in post.
Id stay away from the H2 - get something that is a little less finicky about input gain.
And look for RCA feeds from the board - they will be the easiest to manage.
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I'd look at the Sony PCM-M10. Under $200, great battery life and can take a hot input level.
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The feed from the board is stereo.
The sound guy was telling me i needed two XLR females that ran into one RCA 1/4 male.
I did this and still was pretty bad.
Friend of mine was telling me the sound guy might not be wanting to work the board to much just for my stereo line out, which he has encountered before with his band.
So at a lost because would love to get that feed.
This is why i am looking at the Zoom H1, H2 and H4 to give me a better sound.
Here is one of the video's i shot a few weeks back with just the audio from the camera and as you can tell it could use some help
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh98fxpEdqI
Thank for the help and open to any advice.
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Sounds like the soundman is under the impression that your camera has only a mono
output input...not sure why he would sum it down to 1 RCA.
And - regardless - your camera probably cant handle the XLR signal...
Probably need to know more about your cameras inputs to offer any solid advice. (if your dead set on using the camera for audio capture)
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No i am not dead set on going through my camera, this is just all i have for now to capture from the soundboard.
It's a Canon Elura 65 which is an older camera but has the ability to capture.
Right now i am just on a budget, so was looking at the Zoom models for now off of Ebay.
If you know of a low cost options not using the camera i am all ears and open to any advice.
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It's a Canon Elura 65 which is an older camera but has the ability to capture.
IIUC, the Elura series can only take mic-in:
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/canon-elura-70-camcorder/1707-6500_7-31574600.html
This means that it will overload when you feed it with a board line level signal!
So the camera is a no-go.
Depending on your budget and where you live, get a Tascam DR-07 (or similar DR/PR/VR series). If you can afford an M10, better value for money.
If you're in Europe, Roland R-05, Olympus LS-5 are compareatively lower priced than in the US...
Zoom H1 has an attractive price point, but is not much field tested here, esp when it comes to line in.
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It's a Canon Elura 65 which is an older camera but has the ability to capture.
IIUC, the Elura series can only take mic-in:
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camcorders/canon-elura-70-camcorder/1707-6500_7-31574600.html
This means that it will overload when you feed it with a board line level signal!
So the camera is a no-go.
Depending on your budget and where you live, get a Tascam DR-07 (or similar DR/PR/VR series). If you can afford an M10, better value for money.
If you're in Europe, Roland R-05, Olympus LS-5 are compareatively lower priced than in the US...
Zoom H1 has an attractive price point, but is not much field tested here, esp when it comes to line in.
the manual seems to indicate the AV input can be set to Mic or Line...Also seems to support 4 audio tracks, but only in old school 12 bit.
But it was unclear what happens with the video with some of those settings...
Around page 88...
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Hello everyone, I am new to here so excuse me if i make any mistakes on posting.
I have been asked to videotape national rock acts at a small venue by me.
I have been doing a few shows with access upstairs, setup is in the corner, with the soundboard under me on the first floor. also about 500ft from the stage.
I have been given access to plug into the soundboard but have been having problems.
My equipment is basic, a Canon elura dvtape camcorder and a tripod.
I have been able to record ok but using a lot of software to clean up.
I have tried using a XLR cable from the soundboard to my camera with bad results " not stereo and very loud"
I tried two female XLR cables to one stereo cable to the camera still no go.
The soundboard guy is not very helpful and i don't know enough about their equipment to even ask the right questions.
I am looking to purchase a Zoom H1 to help with the sound but wondering if there is any other suggestions about the audio.
Also looking to purchase a Canon Rebel T2i, to record with in HD. Reason for this camera, i do a lot of photos for bands so it gives me the flexablity i need.
I am on a budget, but i really enjoy doing what i do as a hobby. So any help in this would be great.
Thanks,
GP
Why not just use room mics? Then at least you are capturing the sound of the event.
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I will have to look into the Tascam & Sony for sure and live in the US Chicagoland area.
As far as room mics i am not sure how i would go about it and don't want to interfere with people enjoy the show or catching any noise from them, but i am willing to look into it.
In 2 months i am getting the Canon Rebel T2i so i am hoping that might help out with better video quality, but can't record the whole show with it because i will need to for pics for the first 3 songs or more.
So the Elura would still be used 50% plus of the time.
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Maybe something like this: http://www.beachtek.com/dxa2t.html BeachTek DXA-2T Camcorder Adapter would be handy for you? You can use XLR out of the sbd and into the Camcorder Adapter (use line in) and adjust the levels so you don't overload the input on the camcorder.
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Another thought. What about doing something for the soundguy to help convince him to start working with you. I think the problem with most soundguys is that they have a job to do before the gig so they can't become too distracted by other stuff. But if he knows that you'll be doing this alot, there could be a good motivation for him to help out. He probably just needs to know that he can trust you and that you're a partner and not someone that will be a distraction to him doing his job.
Here are some thoughts...
- Make sure he/she knows that you're doing this at the request of the venue and that you're not doing it for yourself.
- Make sure he/she knows that this isn't just a one time thing...that you want to invest and do this with some degree of quality. If he knows that you're vested and you won't be going away after 2 or 3 shows, he might be more likely to want to work with you.
- Contact him/her ahead of time and ask if there's anything you can do to facilitate...for example, could you show up at soundcheck. Or better yet...get the person that asked you to do this to talk to the soundguy on your behalf and ask him/her to work with you...but let them know ahead of time that you'll work to their schedule to be as unobtrusive as possible.
- Make sure he knows he'll get a copy of whatever you make...and of course follow up.
- Remind him that he'll be able to check what his mixes sound like afterwards...lots of soundguys kinda like to have a copy of their work because if it's a national act they feel proud about mixing well known groups.
- Find out what he likes to eat or drink and throw down for something during the show. Most people respond to small tokens like this and it can only cost you a few bucks. Then once he starts responding, don't stop just because you start to get what you want since that shows a certain lack of sincerity. By keeping on buying him a beer each night, it shows that you haven't forgotten that he's helping you out.
Just some thoughts...
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Well - first - make sure the board mix is worth recording in the first place...
ask him about the mixes...is everything in the mix? or will this be a recording of drums and vocals?
Also, study the board, note the make/model and do some research at home about its outputs...
Easier to ask for something if you know what to ask for...or trouble shoot if something doenst come out as expected...
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^ That's true. Lots of soundboards/soundguys have a separately controlled output, so they can give you a good mix regardless of how they have to mix for the room sound. That said, I'm not really a fan of SBD recordings...they're dry and stale. But a well balanced SBD is bound to sound better than anything you can get though the air at 500 feet away in the back of the venue.
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I just looked over the manual (http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/dv/ins_elura.pdf) for the camera and I'm not sure that this is even possible. It talks about dubbing extra audio (?voiceover?) onto tracks 3-4 after the video is originally recorded; it talks about recording a/v info off of another device while in VCR mode; and it talks about using an expander to get an external mic input. Nowhere does it mention using an external audio source for the primary recording. In my mind, that's the #1 reason to have any sort of audio input, and their not mentioning this configuration makes me wonder if the camera will even grab audio from the a/v inputs when not in vcr mode.
The AV jack is some custom mini jack that connects to a special cable that came with the camera, which fans out to 3 RCA's (L, R, & Composite Video). IF this works, you'd need a cable with a female RCA connector on one end and a female XLR on the other for EACH side (i.e. one for the left, one for the right). Ideally, you'd have some sort of isolator in the middle to prevent ground loops and impedance mismatches. Additionally, you need to figure out how the input gain is set on your camera. As long as there's respectable level, I wouldn't worry about it not being very loud as soon as it hits the camera - you can increase the volume later. I'd be more concerned about sending it too much signal and it hitting what are likely rather poor limiters.
^ That's true. Lots of soundboards/soundguys have a separately controlled output, so they can give you a good mix regardless of how they have to mix for the room sound. That said, I'm not really a fan of SBD recordings...they're dry and stale. But a well balanced SBD is bound to sound better than anything you can get though the air at 500 feet away in the back of the venue.
I'm pretty sure the OP meant 50', not 500'. The only shows where anyone in the audience is 500' from the stage are the largest open-field festivals. A regular football field is less than 400' long including the end zones and the working/buffer area around the field. (looking at his video, my suspicions are confirmed)
Another thought. What about doing something for the soundguy to help convince him to start working with you. I think the problem with most soundguys is that they have a job to do before the gig so they can't become too distracted by other stuff. But if he knows that you'll be doing this alot, there could be a good motivation for him to help out. He probably just needs to know that he can trust you and that you're a partner and not someone that will be a distraction to him doing his job.
Looking at Pete's videos and the web site for the venue, it's not the evening's sound guy that he wants to work with, since these acts are big enough (Vince Neil, Sevendust, etc) that they'll likely be bringing their own engineers. Not to sound like a jerk, but if I was getting paid to mix a $20,000+/night band on a $250K+ sound system, I wouldn't be too interested in helping out a guy who shows up to record the concert with a $200 handicam with no idea of how to even connect his gear to mine. The last thing I, as that band engineer, need is some kind of extraneous noise from his rig bleeding back into mine (be it RF interference, ground hum, bad loading from some weird impedance mismatch, etc). Showing up with cheap gear and no idea how to use it would scream "amateur" to me, and no matter how many beers you buy me, I wouldn't trust you to not screw something up. Even if you don't screw something up at the show, releasing poor quality material after-the-fact has the potential to reflect poorly on me.
If the venue is really the one asking you to do this, call up the house production manager (according to the web site, a guy named Brit Bursh) and sort it out with him on an off-day, when there's no added pressure of getting a show going. But before you do that, you ought to be able to get most of this figured out at home with just an ipod and the correct adapters, assuming your camera can even do what you want it to do. If you figure out how to record some video of you walking around your house, with the audio feed coming from your ipod instead of the camera mic, then you'll be half-way there. After that, you'll just need to get the proper adapters to interface with the house console (going by the pictures, a Yamaha M7CL), a proper line-level isolator to isolate your equipment from theirs, and have the house PM set you up with a mult off the stereo FOH feed.
In 2 months i am getting the Canon Rebel T2i so i am hoping that might help out with better video quality, but can't record the whole show with it because i will need to for pics for the first 3 songs or more. So the Elura would still be used 50% plus of the time.
Before you run off and buy a DSLR and expect it to do everything you hope it will, I suggest that you take some time to learn about recording audio for video and what capabilities these cameras do (and more importantly, DON'T) have. I don't think I've talked to anyone who shoots video on a DSLR that uses it as their primary audio deck. Typically, they record their primary audio to a real recorder and just record scratch audio to the camera, so it's easier to sync up in post.
-Dan.
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The Zoom H4 is nice and easy to use and you can run XLR's straight from the board to the H4 in stereo. IF however you can afford a couple of mics (even realtively cheap ones) you will usually get a much better sound than you do from the board. Many venues don't mic everything (especially smaller ones) and THAT means you are getting the drum kit and usually the bass and possibly the guitar(s) too through the stage vocal mics. Result will be REALLY loud vocals and not much else. The H4 has High, Medium and Low gain settings and you can experiment depending on the source for the best setting. Also it provides a stereo out you can plug into your cam at the show if you wish (assuming you are stationary) otherwise just sync the sound w/ the video in post production.