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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: sonus2011 on January 09, 2011, 06:49:10 AM
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Greetings and Happy new year to all !
I own a SONY PCM-M10, two AT4022 condenser microphones and a MAC BOOK PRO 13".
I intend to record indoor and outoor the following ways using SOUND DEVICES USBPRE2 :
Setup n°1 : condenser microphones > XLR balanced cables > SOUND DEVICES USBPRE2 > cable > SONY PCM-M10
Setup n°2 : condenser microphones > XLR balanced cables > SOUND DEVICES USBPRE2 >cable > MAC BOOK PRO 13"
Any experience with those setup configurations ? Any advice to provide ? Any comments ?
Thanks for your assistance !
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Welcome!
Both rigs should be OK, provided you have sufficient powering to the pre and macbook.
For use with the M10, remember to set it up for analog passthrough:
There is a DIP switch that configures the USBPre 2 to send whatever signal is going to headphones to the outputs. This is how the USBPre 2 can be used as a preamp / converter in Stand-alone mode. When this option is engaged and the Monitor Mix knob is turned all the way to "PRE", the signal path from analog inputs to analog outputs is fully analog.
From http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139081.msg1801563#msg1801563
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Welcome!
Both rigs should be OK, provided you have sufficient powering to the pre and macbook.
For use with the M10, remember to set it up for analog passthrough:
There is a DIP switch that configures the USBPre 2 to send whatever signal is going to headphones to the outputs. This is how the USBPre 2 can be used as a preamp / converter in Stand-alone mode. When this option is engaged and the Monitor Mix knob is turned all the way to "PRE", the signal path from analog inputs to analog outputs is fully analog.
From http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139081.msg1801563#msg1801563
It would be nice to hear a comparison between the two rigs, as a shootout between the AD stage of the M10 and the USBPRE2.
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hello team!
Yes it would be interesting to hear a comparison but have we not misunderstood the quoted application?
Does the M10 have a digital I/P? the Macbook has Firewire/USB and optical S/P DIF (apparently), will it not be digital from the SD onwards...?
JimP
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IIUC, the OP is aware of the interface differences:
USBPRE2 analog out > analog cable > SONY PCM-M10
USBPRE2 USB out > USB data cable > MAC BOOK PRO 13"
(depending on lappy model, there might be a S/PDIF input too, but I don't know if it really offer any real advantages over USB. I believe you can control the preamp from the lappy to a higher extent if you use the USB connection instead.)
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Hi,
Thanks for both response and interest.
I don't own the USBPRE2 yet. But since I own no audio interface yet I got to go to something, right ? I mean the AT4022s are really fantastic microphones so I guess they deserve good equipment. Still, I have no experience with any SOUND DEVICES product. We have NAGRA products here in Europe but like we say here : "Ca coute un bras".
Answering your question the SONY PCM-M10 holds a short USB port but as far as I understand it is used when willing to transfer the files recorded to the computer.
It holds also one "MIC" entry port and one "LINE IN" port : so I suppose these are analog entries, yes. Still, I don't know if it's possible to connect the USBPRE2 to any of those ports. I guess it is.
I believed that the USB connection was for the power only : the USBPRE2 get the power when connected to the computer. Not only reading your comments : the DATAS run both ways ? Am I understanding right ?
Funny you spoke about those ports because today I made few test recordings with the SOUNDMAN OKM II KLASSIC ear plug microphones (binaural) : I connect them to the "LINE IN" port first and press "REC" but there was no recording signal, then I plug them into the "MIC" port and it ran straight fine.
The USBPRE2 is expensive here in Paris (875 euros / 1132 dollars). It's still cheaper than any SD 7XX recorder.
My concern is to get the BEST recording sound quality when plugging the AT4022s. Also to get a portable device that I can use outdoor and indoor. The AT4022s microphone are great for recording nature sounds and they are great also for the studio.
There is one point I didn't understand : when the USBEPRE2 is connected to the computer what happen to the computer sound card ? I guess, the recording function will be possible thanks the recording software in use (Garage Band, Audacity...) but what about the role of the computer sound card ? Is the computer sound card still active when the USBPRE2 is connected to the computer ? I don't get the point here.
Just for the info I looked also at the ROLLS PB224 (117 euros / 151 dollars) since it is in use by some famous US field recordists but a friend of man alert me on the fact the AC port of his broke after few rigs only... I cannot afford paying dollars 117 euros and then see the gear fall into pieces. The ROLLS PB224 is for Phantom Power only, the USBPRE2 is an audio interface.
Any experience with the MACKIE BLACKJACK ? Are the preamps of good quality ? Because it's USB and a more complete solution than the ROLLS PB224. And cheaper than USBPRE2.
As you can read I am still searching...c'est la vie...any suggestion is always welcome.
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if it was me i would just go to the m10 and be done with it
there are some many issues to consider when using the mbp like battery, space, sound
when you are done with the m10 you can transfer it via usb to the mbp in a few minutes and i don't see the mbp sounding better then the m10
although the mbp could prob make it battery wise for a whole show, the m10 will def make it without worries
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Thanks. I understand what you mean. I previously heard recordists saying that they had some issue when recording with computers : battery issue, sudden "stop"...
That's pretty weird stuff, I mean, you are installing everything, the stands, the mics, everything is plugged, the artists are playing great but suddenly the gear just stop functionning for some reason...
I already record with the M10. But with the M10 alone it's impossible to connect the AT4022s microphones since they both require 48v. phantom power.
That's why I the USBPRE2 could solve the case. I mean the M10 alone do the job for certain things and it does things great but the AT4022s are something else, it's another dimension in sound.
Reading you again what you mean is the set-up "condenser microphones > XLR balanced cables > SOUND DEVICES USBPRE2 >cable > MAC BOOK PRO 13" should no be high quality in sound result because of the MAC BOOK PRO ? Could you please clarify ? Thanks.
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if it was me i would just go to the m10 and be done with it
there are some many issues to consider when using the mbp like battery, space, sound
when you are done with the m10 you can transfer it via usb to the mbp in a few minutes and i don't see the mbp sounding better then the m10
although the mbp could prob make it battery wise for a whole show, the m10 will def make it without worries
agreed
get a littlebox for your pre -> M-10
the transfer in post to the macBook
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Reading you again what you mean is the set-up "condenser microphones > XLR balanced cables > SOUND DEVICES USBPRE2 >cable > MAC BOOK PRO 13" should no be high quality in sound result because of the MAC BOOK PRO ? Could you please clarify ? Thanks.
i am just saying that between the m10 and the mbp
that i don't think there would be a big enough difference in sound to make me want to take the mbp in the field
think about it like this
your $1200+ mbp gets a beer spilled on it vs your $200 m10
which would pref???
i personally wouldn't risk it when i don't think the sound of the mbp would justify the risk and transferring from the m10 is painless
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Yes I guess you are right.
Naiant little box is HIGHLY customizable.
Looks like "la crème de la crème" the little box...
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They key is that, for running into an M10, the littlebox costs half as much as the USBpre2 and if you aren't running into digital inputs anyway, then yes, it probably makes more sense for you. Personally, I own a LB and am considering the USBpre2, but only because I'm interesting in running it digitally into my R-44 and a macbook air occasionally if I am doing a streaming thing. I otherwise would never, ever bring a laptop into the field if I could avoid it.
Given your proposed gear chain, I don't think the USBpre2 makes as much sense for you as the littlebox does.
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Bringing a computer on the field may be sensitive indeed.
What cable brand do you recommend between the LITTLE BOX and the M10 ?
Thanks again.
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They key is that, for running into an M10, the littlebox costs half as much as the USBpre2 and if you aren't running into digital inputs anyway, then yes, it probably makes more sense for you. Personally, I own a LB and am considering the USBpre2, but only because I'm interesting in running it digitally into my R-44 and a macbook air occasionally if I am doing a streaming thing. I otherwise would never, ever bring a laptop into the field if I could avoid it.
Given your proposed gear chain, I don't think the USBpre2 makes as much sense for you as the littlebox does.
As much as I like SD gear (and I'm also looking at the usbpre2), I'm inclined to agree, get an analog pre-amp (whether one of Naiant's or another one) and use the M10 that way. If you thought you were going to get a recorder in the near future that did have a SPDIF in, then the usbpre2 could be run in analog only mode for now, and then use the ADC when you get your new recorder, but you would have to know that you are going to get a new recorder and what it would be well in advance to make that selection.
If I were you, I'd get an analog pre-amp (which will probably be cheaper) to run your mics and see how that goes.
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Bringing a computer on the field may be sensitive indeed.
What cable brand do you recommend between the LITTLE BOX and the M10 ?
Thanks again.
you could use any cable from a radio shack on up
i personally use a darktrain one
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ok thanks for the info.
I will make some more recording test this week using the M10 and SOUNDMAN OKM (just to make sure the recorder is safe) and then I should go to NAIANT.
Better to work this way first, little by little.
Thanks all for contribution !
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Just a few clarifications.
the SONY PCM-M10 holds a short USB port but as far as I understand it is used when willing to transfer the files recorded to the computer.
It holds also one "MIC" entry port and one "LINE IN" port : so I suppose these are analog entries, yes. Still, I don't know if it's possible to connect the USBPRE2 to any of those ports. I guess it is.
With a preamp in front = line in, with mics directly = mic in
You can't use the USB port on the M10 for recording.
I believed that the USB connection was for the power only : the USBPRE2 get the power when connected to the computer. Not only reading your comments : the DATAS run both ways ? Am I understanding right ?
Yes, the USBPRE2 works as an external sound card over USB. The signal contains both sound as well as data to control the settings and goes both ways.
I made few test recordings with the SOUNDMAN OKM II KLASSIC ear plug microphones (binaural) : I connect them to the "LINE IN" port first and press "REC" but there was no recording signal, then I plug them into the "MIC" port and it ran straight fine.
The OKM II doesn't come with a preamp, AFAIK. There is an accessory called Soundman A3, but my understanding is that this is only a battery box with a -20dB attenuator pad:
http://www.soundman.de/englisch/prod_a3_eng.htm
So basically you found out the answer. No external preamp = use mic-in on the recorder.
There is one point I didn't understand : when the USBEPRE2 is connected to the computer what happen to the computer sound card ? I guess, the recording function will be possible thanks the recording software in use (Garage Band, Audacity...) but what about the role of the computer sound card ? Is the computer sound card still active when the USBPRE2 is connected to the computer ? I don't get the point here.
Depending on your preferences when installing, you can simply disable the onboard sound card, and the external will take over (Control Panel > Sound and audio devices...)
Just for the info I looked also at the ROLLS PB224 (117 euros / 151 dollars) since it is in use by some famous US field recordists but a friend of man alert me on the fact the AC port of his broke after few rigs only...
For field use you'd be running on 9V batteries instead of AC anyway, so I wouldn't worry about that part. But most of us concluded that the PB224 is too large and clunky, it's not used much here. There's a lot of gear that offers better value for money, either preamps or plain phantom power (depending on your budget: Littlebox, UA-5, PS-2, Art USB Pre, Art Phantom II...)
Any experience with the MACKIE BLACKJACK ? Are the preamps of good quality ? Because it's USB and a more complete solution than the ROLLS PB224. And cheaper than USBPRE2.
Mackie has a good reputation, but we don't have a confirmation that the Blackjack can run as standalone device (ie without a computer). When preamps are bus-powered only, it's usually a sign of warning.
The predecessor Mackie Onyx Satellite does standalone, can be powered with an external battery, but resamples the analog signal IIRC. Might be a good budget option if you find it second hand and don't mind the bulk.
But if you put it next to the Littlebox, I personally value the stealth factor much more.
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If you thought you were going to get a recorder in the near future that did have a SPDIF in, then the usbpre2 could be run in analog only mode for now, and then use the ADC when you get your new recorder
What's wrong with an optical in, which the M10 has already?
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If you thought you were going to get a recorder in the near future that did have a SPDIF in, then the usbpre2 could be run in analog only mode for now, and then use the ADC when you get your new recorder
What's wrong with an optical in, which the M10 has already?
m10 does NOT have optical in or coax for that matter
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Finally I just ordered the ROLLS PB224. I am sure NAIANT is much better but I can't wait three / four weeks and support additional custom taxes.
ROLLS PB224 should be there by the end of the week. I will post sound samples to whom it may concern.
The gear chain will be : Manfrotto 5001B Nano stand > K&M 236 couple steel bar > Audio Technica AT4022 's > Neutrik xlr cables > Rolls PB224 > Cables (brand to come) > Sony PCM-M10
Spot selected for sound test should be my balcony. I leave on the 8th floor. There are traffic lights crossroads downstreet and more interesting around 500 meters a playground. We will then hear how both AT4022's behave.
Thanks.
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If you thought you were going to get a recorder in the near future that did have a SPDIF in, then the usbpre2 could be run in analog only mode for now, and then use the ADC when you get your new recorder
What's wrong with an optical in, which the M10 has already?
m10 does NOT have optical in or coax for that matter
correct. the D50 does optical but not coax, but the M10 does neither.
and to clarify, optical/coax is the carrier/connector, but SPDIF data is what gets sent over those mediums.
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Finally I just ordered the ROLLS PB224. I am sure NAIANT is much better but I can't wait three / four weeks and support additional custom taxes.
Oh well. At least we gave you a second opinion. :-\
The Art USB Dual Pre can be had for 92 EUR from a French retailer, and is IMHO a more versatile device than the Rolls (at 117 EUR):
http://www.musik-produktiv.fr/art-usb-dual-pre.aspx
Or if you were willing to spend a bit more, a Fast Track Pro for 147 EUR, also in France:
http://www.rueducommerce.fr/Son-Numerique-Home-Studio/Accessoires-DJ/Divers/M-AUDIO/4838060-FAST-TRACK-PRO-USB.htm
Anyway, there are always more opportunities to upgrade in the future. Keep us posted with your sound samples, they should be excellent!
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Greetings.
ROLLS PB224 IIb is there. I had in mind to capture children activity in playground but they didn't show so I had to look somewhere else.
2 (two) samples coming.
Sample #1(attached)
- Description : "Birds singing in park followed by truck sudden acceleration"
- Date : January 14, 2011
- European time : 16:00 pm
- Recorded in LPCM 44/24
- no EQ : just fade in and fade out using AUDACITY
- WAV to MP3 conversion using SWITCH
- Duration : 17 sec.
- Spot : Paris 3ème, Square Rue des Blancs-manteaux
- Gear chain : Soundman OKM II Klassik studio > Sony PCM-M10
- Sony PCM-M10 rec level : 4.5
- Sony PCM-M10 low cut filter : desactivated
- Microphones : OKM Klassic II
- Binaural, mics in ears, SONY PCM-M10 handheld
Sample #2 : see next post.
Comment or question always welcome.
Thanks,
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Sample #2 (attached)
- Description : "Firemen truck siren"
- Date : January 14, 2011
- European time : 18:00 pm
- Recorded in LPCM 44/24
- no EQ : just fade in and fade out using AUDACITY
- WAV to MP3 conversion using SWITCH
- Duration : 20 sec.
- Spot : my balcony, 8th floor, Le Pré St Gervais
- Gear chain : AT4022's > Cordial CMK 222 cable > Rolls PB224 > Cordial CF3WFF cable > Sony PCM-M10
- AT4022's microphones are plugged in "MIC IN" port
- Sony PCM-M10 rec level : 6
- Sony PCM-M10 low cut filter : desactivated
- AT cushion on mics head (light wind outside)
- "AB" technique : microphones mounted in parallel 35cm apart, 175cm from the floor
- warning : alarm cuts through so when listening with headphone adjust sound level to avoid ear trouble
Comment or question always welcome.
Thanks,
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Hey Sonus-
that's a pretty crazy siren on that second take! Wasn't prepared for that at all! Good bit of spatial reverb when it cuts though.
A cursory audition reveals a low noise floor and good imaging- I'll have to hear it through my setup later though to comment properly.
Are you happy yourself with it?
JimP
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Hey Jim !
Thanks for nice comments.
The issue when recording innercity is that one gets inevitable "hum". My taste is "clean" signal.
When I listen to recordings done by great american recordist Curt Olson, ALL the signals he gets are extremely "clean" : they are all very disctinct, they all "cut" through in a way. So at the end you get a very rich sound palette, something very pleasant to listen at. A kind of sound "document" that can exist by itself. Check his great web site "Track seventeen Productions Inc." and the sample name as "Spring Thunder w/ Siren" for example.
This firemen truck siren (sample two) cuts through indeed. It's a powerful signal that goes OVER the rest of the sound signals around and most of all that goes over the "hum" mood.
The best is yet to come with those AT4022's and I am quite happy with the SONY PCM-M10 (minimum noise), same as the ROLLS PB224 (good quality equipment).
Also, it's always a pleasure to write here, exchange and share experiences and ideas.
Thanks !