I find it very amusing, and rather sad, that Nagra has chosen to name their new recorder "SD" - short for Sound Devices. There can be no doubt they thought about the potential for confusion, but decided to go with it.
They've surely lost a great deal of business to "SD" in recent years.
The Nagra BB and BB+ are excellent little machines.
They were discontinued when the LB came out (the LB replacing the BB).
Info on the BB+ is HERE (http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_ares_bb+.php).
(http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/images/Ares_BBplus_page.jpg)
It only had a 20-bit converter and sample frequencies only up to 48kHz - it would not do 24/96.
BUT - being a Nagra, the sound quality would have been better than most small 24/96 machines around at the time.
Depending on the price - I would check out the new SD machine they will show at NAB, and also the new Nagra VI quality pre-amp with integrated recorder (should be cheaper than the LB I understand) that they should also be showing at NAB.
From what you say you are going to do, I would strongly recommend you look at the new recorder. This is the one with the Nagra VI quality mic. pre-amps. with built-in recorder. I have been told they will be showing it at NAB next month and I hope it will be available in May. I understand it will be cheaper than the LB, although the quality of the mic. pre-amps will be better (mainly because it will not have all the editing facilities that the LB has). I already have my name down for one of these as it will increase my Nagra VI to 6 mic. inputs (all the same quality) and, with the built-in recorder option, will enable me to take it out on its own when I only need a small stereo machine (of the same quality, of course). ;D
I hope this helps.
The Nagra BB and BB+ are excellent little machines.
They were discontinued when the LB came out (the LB replacing the BB).
Info on the BB+ is HERE (http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/pages/products_ares_bb+.php).
(http://www.nagraaudio.com/pro/images/Ares_BBplus_page.jpg)
It only had a 20-bit converter and sample frequencies only up to 48kHz - it would not do 24/96.
BUT - being a Nagra, the sound quality would have been better than most small 24/96 machines around at the time.
Depending on the price - I would check out the new SD machine they will show at NAB, and also the new Nagra VI quality pre-amp with integrated recorder (should be cheaper than the LB I understand) that they should also be showing at NAB.
From what you say you are going to do, I would strongly recommend you look at the new recorder. This is the one with the Nagra VI quality mic. pre-amps. with built-in recorder. I have been told they will be showing it at NAB next month and I hope it will be available in May. I understand it will be cheaper than the LB, although the quality of the mic. pre-amps will be better (mainly because it will not have all the editing facilities that the LB has). I already have my name down for one of these as it will increase my Nagra VI to 6 mic. inputs (all the same quality) and, with the built-in recorder option, will enable me to take it out on its own when I only need a small stereo machine (of the same quality, of course). ;D
I hope this helps.
HI John,
Well, it helps a little. Did you miss the part where I specified that I must be able to afford the machine? I looked at the LB and concluded that I could not justify the price for a hobby machine. I'm sure that any new Nagra will fall into the same catagory-too expensive. Taking that into consideration, does your suggestion change?
I must ask the following:
1. Have you actually heard recordings made on the BB+ on a really good hi fi system? What did you think?
2. Have you owned a BB+?
3. Have you made recordings on the BB+? IOW, have you actually used the machine?
4. In what way do you expect the new machine to be better?
I'm sorry to push the point but I am so tired of generalities that are thrown around on the internet. If you want to really help me, be specific. I need you to be specific. Spec sheets are not very inportant to me. Real world performance is very important. Information I received from a French compatriot concerning recordings made on the BB+ indicated the sound was excellent; some of the best he has heard. And he knows what is good. So do I.
Thanks, Sparky
HI John,
I'm guilty of the generalities I accused you of. I was reluctant to mention the price for fear of violating forum rules. But I will take the chance since it has become a discussion point. The price I was offered from Nagra USA is $1800 for the recorder, a PCMCIA flash card adaptor, a 1 gig Sandisk flash card, a strap, all software, the AA cell power pack and an AC mains wall wart. The unit is a demo example. This all adds up to a $3000 value or so I have been told. I've been assured that the machine is perfect.
A knowledgeable person at Nagra USA, who will remain unnamed to protect the innocent, made a very strong argument that the BB+ is a better machine than the LB. Yes, the sound quality as well as some features. What can I say? Who has the most experience with these machines?
Does this change anything from your point of view?
Thanks for the Audacity name. That's the one I was thinking of.
Thanks, Sparky
Hey John,
this is an interesting statement: "Once you have decided what you are doing, the choice is normally pretty clear."
what areas do you think play to the strengths of each machine...?
I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.
I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...
I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.
I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...
I think you're being a bit harsh by concluding that all recorders you've found below $1800 are "not professional", and therefore inferior to the BB+.
I understand that street price for the BB+ is $2400, so you've been offered a good bargain:
http://www.pro-sound.com/R/SNAGARES.html
But since you're on a budget, I'd be interested to hear what mics you intend to run with the recorder? It would make little sense spending $1800 on the recorder if you put $500 mics in front of it.
You could easily find an SD 702 in the yard sale for less, not to mention other popular 24bit units here (DR-680, R-44, MR-1000, FR-2, PMD-661 with advanced mods for ambient recording).
That would give you more money to spend on mics, unless you already have stellar gear for all situations mentioned above (nature, trains, music, which all would benefit from different mics).
I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.
I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...
I think you're being a bit harsh by concluding that all recorders you've found below $1800 are "not professional", and therefore inferior to the BB+.
I understand that street price for the BB+ is $2400, so you've been offered a good bargain:
http://www.pro-sound.com/R/SNAGARES.html
But since you're on a budget, I'd be interested to hear what mics you intend to run with the recorder? It would make little sense spending $1800 on the recorder if you put $500 mics in front of it.
You could easily find an SD 702 in the yard sale for less, not to mention other popular 24bit units here (DR-680, R-44, MR-1000, FR-2, PMD-661 with advanced mods for ambient recording).
That would give you more money to spend on mics, unless you already have stellar gear for all situations mentioned above (nature, trains, music, which all would benefit from different mics).
HI Sunjan,
You have a good point. Let's work with facts first. The BB+ in addition to the optional extras price out at $3000. So, the deal is better than you indicated. I can't claim that the sub $1800 machines are not as good or less professional than the BB+. But, the fact is that Nagra has been the pro's choice for decades. True, the competition is tougher in our digital age. But, I'll still go with the company that has the reputation. And I am a true lover of great, professional equipment. Test equipment is a good example. When I had my hi fi repair shop, I had all Tektronix test equipment. I tend to look at most other test equipment as junk. Most of it is junk. Working with Tektronix equipment is a joy in so many ways and makes my efforts better and more efficient. I still have all the equipment in my home shop. My cameras are all Nikon top of the line. Again, a joy. The term "professional" actually means something eventhough the term is used very loosly as a mark of merit. So, the only way to tell is look at what the pro's use. They very often use Nagra (and Nikon and Canon).
While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.
My entry into this activity is a process and it can't happen overnight. There's too much to learn and too much experience to be gained and all this takes time.
Microphones are a tough call. I decided to not spend a fortune on great mic's at the beginning. I bought two AKG C 1000 mic's. I know these are not great mic's. They are good though. They will do as I go through the learning process. And I can afford them. As time goes on I plan to upgrade as necessary. It's a little like hi fi systems, with which I have over 50 years of experience. Most folks can't go out and buy their dream system if they even know what that is and usually they don't. Instead, they must grow into it, trading, buying used, experimenting until they finally learn what they want and can afford it. Mic's are like speakers. You can buy $10,000 speakers and have fine sound. But you can buy $50,000 systems and have great sound. Unless you are rich, you must take the steps in between to reach your goal. I am taking the gradual route. Obtaining a Nagra is a good first step.
Sparky
I bought two AKG C 1000 mic's. I know these are not great mic's. They are good though.
While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.
As for the AKG cards, a lot of folks seem to like the AT 3032 omnis. I suspect they would produce better nature recordings. They are quite affordable if you can find them - they are discontinued.
Of course, I tend to believe form follows function. No recorder, no matter how "professional", can make up for what is lost with inferior mics.
In the world of hi fi I have found that amplification is just as important as great speakers. In fact they must work together to produce great sound. It's called symbiosis. The same is true with mics and pre-amps.
What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic?
So, get off your high horse's. I know my style and I don't expect you to agree. But you could at least try to see my view.
I am an audiophile so my expectations of sound quality is high.This is what we are responding to.
But, they are not professional machines and that is a factor for me.
While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.Are you starting to understand why people are giving you advice?? you keep contradicting yourself.
Your thoughts will be appreciated.Really?
Thanks, Sparky
While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.
But, as a point of interest, would you guy's like to exactly tell me what is wrong with the C1000's. You've done nothing more than generalize. Give me some real descriptions of the sonic differences.
I will be using it for a broad range of recording activities including field recording of natural sounds and music groups when I can. I plan on recording lots of trains and thunderstorms.
No one here is trying to rip on you Sparky. We're trying to pass along experiences and information that has been tested, comp'd and learned in the field for decades. So to try and help......
The Nagra > C1000 combo is like buying a Ferrari and putting in a Yugo motor.
If you're ready, willing and able to make the jump to a Nagra then by all means pair it with something that will help you realize the investment. If someone on some other forum told you that C1000's were a good match (sonically and price-wise) to any Nagra then they were lying to you.
I notice that none of you have mentioned the really expensive mics. What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic? Something better? Are you willing to spend that much? I'll bet not. Why, because you don't place a great value on the fine quality sound which the great mics are capable of.
Wow, you guy's are ripping me hard. Your opinions of the AKG mics are not universal at all. I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?
I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?The reason why many users end up buying C1000 and similar low-end mics is that they only have $200 to spend. Perhaps also because they didn't have the same very specific usage in mind that you do. As others mentioned, they are designed to be on-stage mics, making them much less suitable for long-distance recording and ambient stuff.
In truth, you are offering opinions that I did not ask for. I will find out for myself. It's the only way.
If I were to ask a hundred people which is their favorite mic, I would get 100 different answers.
So who has the best answers? I don't know and there is no way of finding out short of using the mics and making my judgment.
Do you think they are less important than the mics? I don't think so. They are both important. So, I say, buy good pre-amps. I'm going to do that.
What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic? Something better? Are you willing to spend that much? I'll bet not. Why, because you don't place a great value on the fine quality sound which the great mics are capable of. But I am willing to spend that much. Just not now. I'm not ready for that level of quality.
Wow, you guy's are ripping me hard. Your opinions of the AKG mics are not universal at all. I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?
Normally, with a Nagra you would use something like: Sennheiser MKH series, Neumann, Schoeps, DPA, Gefell or MBHO (MBHO being especially good value for the quality - similar quality to Schoeps but a lot cheaper).
I can understand wanting something like a Nagra and using inexpensive mics. while he saves up for something decent to match the Nagra (and, in a way, I did something like this myself when I started many years ago). But I think you will be very disappointed with the C1000 - sorry.
HI sun,
I never deceived myself. I knew the C1000 were not the best mics. Price is a good guide. However, I did the research and found many who thought the C1000 was a good mic. That's one reason I bought it. The other reason is the lack selection locally. There is no way I could audition the vast quantity of mics out in the market. Also, I knew no one who could help. I don't see that I had much choice but to buy mics that got good comments, I could afford, were available and had the features I wanted (battery power, 48V phantom operable, and variable pattern). Honestly, I never expected this outpouring of venom aimed at the C1000. I thought I was doing OK within the confines of my objectives. I will use my ears and I don't need you to remind me. I live in the world of high end hi fi. My ears are all I've got.
And yes, I am willing to have lower quality recordings as I learn the craft. That's the price of of the experience. I understood that from the beginning. Also yes, I always planned to buy better mics as my skills justified the cost.
I truly think you guy's are not putting yourself in my shoes. I would appreciate it if you would try. You don't have to agree with me but I don't like to be treated like an idiot.
Honestly, I never expected this outpouring of venom aimed at the C1000.Look, I don't think that C1000 is a bad mic per se. For someone with a mic budget of $300-400 who only intend to use them for close miking (as opposed to ambient field recording), they are perfectly OK. I have even recommended them as starter mics here on TS earlier, to guys who couldn't afford spending more.
And yes, I am willing to have lower quality recordings as I learn the craft. That's the price of of the experience. I understood that from the beginning. Also yes, I always planned to buy better mics as my skills justified the cost.
Given my goals that have been stated many times in this thread, which mics would to suggest for $2000? I'd love to hear you views because at some point in the future I will need your advice and I will use it. Understand that I probably will have no chance to audition the mics you suggest. I hate being in that position but there is not much I can do about it. Also, I understand that no single mic is universal. I fully expect to eventually have a stable of mics for different purposes. But, let’s start at the start; a great general purpose mic.
Please, have fun with this. What would you buy?
Thanks, Sparky
HI Page,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that one of my original goals was recording music. Probably this means solo or small group performers. But if I can manage it I want to record chamber groups, bands, and symphony orchestras. I plan to do this as much as I can but it will take time to build contacts. Nature is only one of my objectives.
Also, it would help if you all indicate if you have actually used the mics or have first hand experience with what you suggest.
Sparky
HI Page,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that one of my original goals was recording music. Probably this means solo or small group performers. But if I can manage it I want to record chamber groups, bands, and symphony orchestras. I plan to do this as much as I can but it will take time to build contacts. Nature is only one of my objectives.
Also, it would help if you all indicate if you have actually used the mics you suggest.
Sparky
6. Sennheiser 8040
A $2000 cap puts DPA 4011 or 40xx anything, Schoeps CMC anything, Sennheiser MKH 80xx out of reach.
If you purchased a set of Schoeps mk4 caps used for $8-900 and bought a pair of CMRs for $1100 and were handy at building yourself a battery box you could do that. But that is going to put you right up to and possibly over 2k by the time you figure parts and shipping.
EDIT: while Microtech Gefell 200s would be over $2k a pair of m300 would be under that, but not sure if they offer matching at a price under $2000. Also don't know anything about MBHO or Josephson c42 although they are generally well regarded.
But my misuse of the term just shows you that I am a newbe to this game. I would very much appreciate it if you don't assume anything. For example, you said CMR (whats a CMR?) without any description. Am I supposed to know what you are talking about? Same thing with PFA (whats a CFA and CMC6?). I hope you are not just trying to impress me with your knowledge. Don't worry, I'm impressed.
Are you getting the idea now? I hope so because I'm spending too much time being confused.
But my misuse of the term just shows you that I am a newbe to this game. I would very much appreciate it if you don't assume anything. For example, you said CMR (whats a CMR?) without any description. Am I supposed to know what you are talking about? Same thing with PFA (whats a CFA and CMC6?). I hope you are not just trying to impress me with your knowledge. Don't worry, I'm impressed.
Not sure what you mean by 'don't assume anything' but I take it you don't want us to assume that you're new and are looking to spend money on things you know nothing about yet?Are you getting the idea now? I hope so because I'm spending too much time being confused.
We're trying to get the idea here but when you disagree with us on things that we all know to be true then patience runs thin. So as mentioned before do you want us to help you or do you just want us to agree with you? Because those as of now seem to be two totally different things.
As for what an Nbox is or CMR's or MG200 's those items are basic Taping 101 topics that you should read about before folks continue to give you info on things that you appear to not know anything about. Go read the Getting Started threads and do some basic searching on this site. I have no doubt that once you do some of your own investigating instead of asking people to do your work for you that your thought process on your Nagra > C1000's will completely change.
And the advantage of using an Nbox is?
HI All,It takes the bodies out of the equation but adds another small box.
And the advantage of using an Nbox is?
Sparky
1. DPA/B&K (4011, 4021, 4022, 4023)
2. Nevaton MC49
3. Milab VM44 (Link or Classic)
4. Schoeps CMC64 (cardioids)
5. beyerdynamic CK930 (or MC930)
6. Sennheiser 8040
MBHO mics. are exceptionally good for the price - pretty close to Schoeps in quality but they have simpler distribution and are much cheaper (they make the capsules for Soundfield, Brauner and others).
Damnit, I just lost several paragraphs somehow. Out of frustration, my response now will be more brief, and I won't re-type the answer your above question directly...yet.
EVERYONE ALWAYS forgets about MBHO's.
And Neumann's as well :)
I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra.
The same is not true with live recording with which I have little experience. Oh, I have recorded a lot at home but not live. The reason I knew the mic issue would be difficult is because all issues in audio are difficult when it comes to truth; most noteworthy are mics and speakers but the same is true for amplification. You know this is true. Even on this forum, in this thread, I am sceptical. I don't know these people. I don't know their background, their experience, their talent, their ears, their results, or their sonic tastes. I know what they claim but the truth is in the listening. Anyone can claim anything. They are as unknown to me as the microphones they are propounding. It is extremely unlikely I would follow any of them to death. If they are smart, they would respect this view. But, for the most part, that is asking for too much. This does not apply to everybody, thankfully. Given this attitude, I would understand why they would check out. But those who stay with me will give birth to a talented recorder. I hope that is their goal rather than trying to change the basic fabric of my being. If that is their goal, as I think it is, they will fail.
Sparky
HI aaronji,I've followed this thread with the morbid fascination like watching the train wreck happen. Every so often this same pattern of a newbie coming in then the exact same chain of events, JUST LIKE THIS, happens.
I posted here because I had run out of options for Nagra information. ...
And are you smart? ....That just pisses me off. As for the backgrounds you mentioned, it's beside the point. I'll accept advice when it makes sense to me. If it doesn't I won't. So, it doesn't and neither do you. It's the PHD's that drove this country to the brink of destruction. Don't wave that flag. It has little credibility.
NO, I don't think you are smart enough.
Sparky
HI kirkd,
You are wrong. And you choose to be wrong. I'll say it again (how many times must I say it?). This was a post concerning Nagra not mics. I am not the one bringing it to a full circle. It's you, and others like you, doing that. I'm not going to simply be a punching bag for your, umm, crap. I will come at you like an eagle with stretched talons.
So beware.
HI kirkd,
You are wrong. And you choose to be wrong. I'll say it again (how many times must I say it?). This was a post concerning Nagra not mics. I am not the one bringing it to a full circle. It's you, and others like you, doing that. I'm not going to simply be a punching bag for your, umm, crap. I will come at you like an eagle with stretched talons.
So beware.
Since the thread has moved into mics like an inevitable natural force, it has been useful. At least I'm learning from it. I think others will too. So, depart from us if you can't make a contribution. I really don't care what you think about me. I just consider the source and then all is right.
Sparky
And are you smart? Smart enough to let me do this in my own way? Smart enough to realize that you are not going to change my mind? Smart enough to know there is truth in what I am saying? Smart enought to know that I have never, and never would, claimed to be a super genius or "King of the Tapers". That just pisses me off. As for the backgrounds you mentioned, it's beside the point. I'll accept advice when it makes sense to me. If it doesn't I won't. So, it doesn't and neither do you. It's the PHD's that drove this country to the brink of destruction. Don't wave that flag. It has little credibility.
NO, I don't think you are smart enough.
Sparky
HI kirkd,
You are wrong. And you choose to be wrong. I'll say it again (how many times must I say it?). This was a post concerning Nagra not mics. I am not the one bringing it to a full circle. It's you, and others like you, doing that.
Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. Let's say I had a mic budget of up to $2000 for two matched mics.
Given my goals that have been stated many times in this thread, which mics would you suggest for $2000? I'd love to hear you views because at some point in the future I will need your advice and I will use it.
Please, have fun with this. What would you buy?
Thanks, Sparky
| FORUM PREFERENCES MAN MODEL MENTIONS EACH SOURCE COMMENT Schoeps MK 21 2 788.00 B&H Wide Card - Capsule Only MK 2 2 765.00 B&H Omni - Capsule Only MK 4 3 698.00 B&H Card - Capsule Only CMR 1 NA Not Found B&H PFA 1 NA Not Found B&H CMC 6 3 1743.00 B&H Microphone Complete MK 41 2 1743.00 B&H Super-Card - Microphone Complete CMC 64 1 1743.00 B&H Super-Card-Microphone Complete; Same as CMC 6? MK 22 2 788.00 B&H Card – Capsule Only Microtech Gefell M2000 M200? 1 748.44 Full Compass Pattern ? M20 1 724.71 Full Compass Card- Capsule M300 1 Not Found B&H M296 1 Beyerdynamic MC910 1 599.00 B&H Omni MC930 2 599.00 B&H Card MC803 1 NA Not Found B&H MC703 1 NA Not Found B&H MC930 1 1149.00 B&H Card – Matched pair AKG C 480 b 1 1078.00 B&H Omni CK61 2 1099.00 B&H Omni CK62 1 1078.00 B&H Omni C451 1 579.00 B&H Card C451/ST 0 1299.00 B&H Card – Matched Piair C 460 1 NA Not Found B&H C 414 XLS/ST 0 2199.00 B&H Selectable-Lg Dia-Matched Pair C 414 XLS 1 999.00 B&H Selectable-Lg Dia CK 391 1 539.00 B&H Card 393 1 NA Not Found B&H 461 1 NA Not Found B&H 463 1 NA Not Found B&H C 1000 1 199.00 B&H Card-Variable SE 300B 1 539.00 B&H Card CK 91 1 539.00 B&H Card CK 93 1 478.00 B&H Hyper Card C 60b 1 NA Not Found B&H CK 1 1 NA Not Found B&H CK 3 1 NA Not Found B&H CK 63 1 1058.00 B&H Hyper Card Milab VM-44 2 NA Not Found B&H DPA 406X (4061) 1 443.00 B&H Omni Reference Series 1 NA Not Found B&H DPA/B&K 4011 1 1949.00 B&H Card 4021 1 1765.00 B&H Card - Compact 4022 1 1765.00 B&H Card - Compact 4023 1 ? Not Found B&H B&K 4011 1 NA Not Found B&H Nevation MC49 1 1199.00 Recording Hacks Card Sennheiser MKH-8040 3 1199.95 B&H Card MKH 8020 2 1199.95 B&H Omni MKH 8020ST 0 2399.95 B&H Omni-Matched Pair MKH 40 1 1199.95 B&H Wide Card MKH 20 1 1199.95 B&H Omni Neumann KMS 140 1 1599.95 B&H Card KM 183 3 899.95 B&H Omni – Basic Model KM 184 2 849.95 B&H Card SKM183 2 1699.95 B&H Omni – Matched Pair of KM 183 SKM184 2 199.95 B&H Box for SKM 183 MBHO No Models 1 NA Atlas Pro Several Models Josephson C42 1 525.00 Mercenary |
Have you actually used a C1000? Sorry, but I must ask that question.
Just accept the fact that I will not take things on pure, uniformed faith. Yet, that is exactly what you are asking me to do. One doesn't get married after the first date, right?
HI John,
I'm concerned about several things which you do not know, you can't. First, the ultimate price in the US is not firm. Next, when will the new unit actually be for sale through normal outlets. I want to get under way now not months from now. These two things definitely hang me up. I need to make a decision and, to be honest, I'm leaning towards the BB+.
I don't want to get the mic thing going again. I have heard all the bad words about the C 1000 posted here. But how do you account for the good reviews I read? I based my purchase on those reviews and they were very positive. No, they did not claim the C1000 was a world beater but they were positive, in fact very positive; enough so that they did not scare me away. If it was just one review, I could dismiss it as a marketing ploy. But, it was several reviews by authors unassociated with one another. I don't think there were untrue motives involved.
Have you actually used a C1000? Sorry, but I must ask that question.
Sparky