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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Shaun on March 30, 2011, 04:32:15 AM
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Used my new PCM-M10 for the first time last night to record Deer Hunter. The sound at the gig wasn't that good, the bass was distorted (but very present!) for the most part. Used my SP-CMC-20 mics & battery box into line in. Just had a quick listen on headphones and although the recording is clear it's really lacking in bass. I'd previously used the same set up into a Sharp MD recorder and picked up some nice bass on recordings. Do I need to go with no bass roll off in the battery box? (I've just left the bass roll off on the same setting it arrived with).
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Am i wrong or i thought bass roll off does not work thru line in only mic in?
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The low cut filter in the pcm-m10 only works with mic in. I'm referring to the bass roll off in the microphone battery box, which is plugged into line in.
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In the vast majority of cases, bass rolloff should be turned OFF, period. If you have a really boomy room it might help, but otherwise, you're doing exactly what the name says: cutting out bass.
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It's just that I've not changed any settings from when I was using minidisc.
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The low cut filter in the pcm-m10 only works with mic in.
Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that the low-cut on the M10 works regardless of input mode (internal, mic, line)...
I'm referring to the bass roll off in the microphone battery box, which is plugged into line in.
One possibility is that the input impedance on your MD and the M10 are not the same, causing substantial differences in where the roll-off kicks in (here is mshilarious' explanation: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=105993.msg1415476#msg1415476 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=105993.msg1415476#msg1415476)). Also, guysonic mentioned that the M10 rolls-off some very low frequency bass (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722494#msg1722494 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722494#msg1722494)), although he says that occurs below 20 Hz so it might not be very noticeable (and it's not clear to me if he is referring only to mic-in or if it affects line as well)...
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The low cut filter in the pcm-m10 only works with mic in.
Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that the low-cut on the M10 works regardless of input mode (internal, mic, line)...
I'm referring to the bass roll off in the microphone battery box, which is plugged into line in.
Actually I think you're right, just checking now and although I could have sworn the low-cut filter was off when I set up it seems to have been on. If that's the case it's a really severe filter! The show was really full on sound-wise, to the point of distortion, but the recording sounds weak and distant.
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I would leave the low-cut OFF. You can always take away bass in post-editing ;)
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Many thanks for all your advice. I had no intention of using the low-cut filter, but now having done a few quick test comparisons with it switched on and off I'm suprised by how severe it is. It's makes the recording sound like your using a boom box condender mic! I'll just chalk this one down to experience.
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Many thanks for all your advice. I had no intention of using the low-cut filter, but now having done a few quick test comparisons with it switched on and off I'm suprised by how severe it is. It's makes the recording sound like your using a boom box condender mic! I'll just chalk this one down to experience.
Also what headphones did you listen back to it on? That makes a huge difference as well, cheaper ones have very poor bass response usually, like most "stock" ear buds for example
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I listened back through my hi-fi (NAD amp and mission speakers).
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+1 to leaving low cut (bass roll off) filter off. I had the original SP-CMC-8's (AT-933/c) and with my MiniDisc, I would record my shows with bass roll-off at 69Hz as I felt the recordings I'd made were "boomy" otherwise. Now that I listen to them, I think I should've left roll-off "off."
In 2010, I upgraded to CA-14's and Chris, and others, said you should never run roll-off or low-cut filters with card mics because it'll toast any bass you don't have.
As far as your "distorted bass at the source" goes, I've recorded over 300 shows in about 20-year's time and I've left many-a-venue where the sound was distorted to my ears and the recording was fine. I've also had a couple of instances where I was too close to the stacks at that point and "blew out" my recording.
As long as you're not too close to the stacks (30 feet), the distortion shouldn't translate.
Hope this helped.
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Yes, I have the same experience regarding the distorted at source sound rarely being present on a recording. It's the same with the one I've just done, no distortion, but also no bass.
I haven't got any gigs lined up until next month, but I will be going with no roll off on either PCM-M10 or mics. I'll let you know how it turns out.
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Yes, I have the same experience regarding the distorted at source sound rarely being present on a recording. It's the same with the one I've just done, no distortion, but also no bass.
I haven't got any gigs lined up until next month, but I will be going with no roll off on either PCM-M10 or mics. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Cardioid mics do have "less bass pickup" so I would suggest you leave your roll-off/filter to OFF. If your recording has "too much" bass, you can always EQ it out, however, you can't add what's missing.
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In the vast majority of cases, bass rolloff should be turned OFF, period. If you have a really boomy room it might help, but otherwise, you're doing exactly what the name says: cutting out bass.
I strongly disagree with the sentiment that there's rarely a need for bass roll-off as you can just EQ in post. Bass roll-off is a tool that, if used properly, should be a part of any recordists arsenal.
Bass roll-off is useful in the microphone > recorder signal path because it will increase the dynamic range available to all frequencies present. Rather than try to explain this myself, here is a perfect quote that expresses why roll-off is beneficial:
Removing some of the low frequency energy leaves the system more robust wrt to taking good care of the higher frequencies. The upshot is less strain on power supplies, reduced loss in signal caps, less intermodulation distortion, less harmonics added etc .. "
You can't argue that roll-off, if done properly, isn't beneficial.
However, most bass-roll (especially with the microphones, preamps and battery boxes, and recorders used by the people on this forum) is not done properly hence the fear to use it outside of post-processing. I feel this is primarily a result of the companies marketing products to tapers and their mis-information (or lack of instruction) on how the science of roll-off works.
Bass roll-off values are not static and dependent on the downstream input impedance! For example, many battery boxes commonly marketing with selectable values of bass roll-off are assuming a common input impedance value... typically 10k ohms. If you use a recorder with an input impedance of 10k ohms, great, but many do not. Input impedances of the various recorders can differ as much as 10 fold!!! Some are as low as 4.7k (many Sony mic inputs) and some are as high as 47k (Sony line inputs). 20k is an extremely common value, which effectively halves the roll-off provided. If you've set your bbox to start roll-off at 120 Hz roll-off, the reality is you're starting it at 60 hZ which is hardly the same.
If you don't know the input impedance of your recording device, you won't know the amount of bass roll-off you are actually providing! If you know your recorder's input impedance, but not the assumed value in the product's User manual, you're really just hoping it's a close match to your recorder. I have a big pet peeve with the fact that this isn't clearly documented with every battery box or preamp sold by most/all microphone manufacturers. To do it right, you need to provide a chart of the various recorders' input impedances and keep it updated as new recorders hit the market.
All that aside, I want to reiterate that roll-off is not something to fear, so long as you do it right! Doing it in post is acceptable and much easier, but there are very real benefits to doing it upstream of the recording device which, I feel, are generally misunderstood.
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I think you make a good point but in terms of what we do I think bass roll-off at the mic is too much of a gamble: we all know how much the sound can differ from night to night - for the same band in different rooms, different bands in the same venue and even the same band in the same venue...
If you can do a proper test recording (ie of that particular band in that particular room on that particular night) and decide that there really is too much bass then fair enough but I would rather take the risk of recording too much bass and have to tweak it in post than run the risk of coming home with an unacceptably thin recording that no amount of post-processing can properly rectify.
I understand the benefits that you are describing but I think that they are probably of less import than the potential drawbacks. Plus you have greater flexibility when applying EQ in post, both in terms of amount of cut and the frequencies affected.
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I think you make a good point but in terms of what we do I think bass roll-off at the mic is too much of a gamble: we all know how much the sound can differ from night to night - for the same band in different rooms, different bands in the same venue and even the same band in the same venue...
If you can do a proper test recording (ie of that particular band in that particular room on that particular night) and decide that there really is too much bass then fair enough but I would rather take the risk of recording too much bass and have to tweak it in post than run the risk of coming home with an unacceptably thin recording that no amount of post-processing can properly rectify.
I understand the benefits that you are describing but I think that they are probably of less import than the potential drawbacks. Plus you have greater flexibility when applying EQ in post, both in terms of amount of cut and the frequencies affected.
Totally agree that it's too often a gamble, but only because the science of how it works with particular recorders has been completely obscured.
Roll-off is not meant to be tweaked in such a finite fashion as 'venue to venue.' Certain microphones will benefit from a threshold amount of roll-off 99.9% of the time, but you have to carefully evaluate what that threshold is. Once you know, you will never come home with an 'unacceptably thin recording.' In fact, you might still wish to remove a tad more bass as your ears and playback system dictate, but you're certainly better off than had no roll-off been used at all.
The goal is not to get bass response perfect before it hits the recorder, but rather to reduce a portion of the low frequency spectrum that is rarely useful or contains unwanted artifacts (hum, vibrations, etc.). For some microphones, a small amount of roll-off is beneficial regardless of the source music or environment.
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Just checked my Sounds Pro battery box and I think it's actually set up for 'no bass roll-off' already. It's one of the ones where you have to unscrew the top to get at the switches. I've never changed the setting since I bought it, and looking at the info on the sounds pro website it looks like it's set to 'no bass roll-off'. So it seems it's all due to the low cut filter on the M10.
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I've just made my second recording with the pcm-m10 and I have to say again it's disappointing. This time it was at a venue I've recorded at before (using the same mic set up but with my old sharp minidisc recorder) with excellent results. I definitely had the low cut filter off, no bass roll off on the battery box, going to line in, and recording in 48/96 mode and the recording lacks any real definition or any discerable low or high frequencies. Could I have a device with a defective line in?
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Could I have a device with a defective line in?
check out at home. record from a CD deck or similar into line-in. if there is a lack of sound maybe it´s defective.
Other to do´s: some recorders you can set EQ for recording, maybe yours is set with an EQ setting for "No Bass".
other points:
Battery box battery is bad
you recorded in a spot at the venue were phase deletion occured with your mic config. (maybe invert phase on one channel of the recording)
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Cardioid mics do have "less bass pickup" so I would suggest you leave your roll-off/filter to OFF. If your recording has "too much" bass, you can always EQ it out, however, you can't add what's missing.
Cardioid mics are, however, subject to the Proximity Effect which is a boosting of bass at close distances. But that's WAY more dramatic the last inch or two to the mic, versus the difference between 20 & 40 feet away. But compare that to Omni mics which don't have proximity effect at all. Different animals.
Experiment!! 8)