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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: nicegrin on August 08, 2011, 11:31:39 AM
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Hi all!
I´m attending some outdoor shows I want to tape using 2 set of mics and then matrix them in post.
One of the pairs I will use is Nevaton MCE 400 omnis, but what would you reccomend as the second pair? omnis, cards or hypers?
I guess I will be close to PA most of the times but screamers and clappers might still be a problem.
Music will be amplified pop/rock stuff.
The mics I consider as second pair is:
Nevaton MCE400 (second set),
MM HLSO (sennheiser mk2e omnis),
MM HLSC-1 (cards),
SP-CMC-8 hypers,
Audix 1280 hypers with "actives"
AKG CK93 hypers with "actives"
(Not sure I want to use the Schoeps or Milabs outside if there is a risk for bad weather!)
Any insight and ideas regarding this matter is highly appreciated!
Thanks
N.
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Consider what it is you want to achieve. There are serveral reasons for running more than one pair of mics from the same location:
1) Comparing two different stereo recordings fo the same event.
In that case you probably want different mics, unless you want to compare two different spacings, or AB vs Jecklin disk or something like that.
2) Enhancing something you've found lacking in your straight stereo recordings.
Adding a pair of omnis to a directional pair for better bottom octave pickup. Adding directional mics to the omnis to decrease reverberant pickup, increase direct sound and presence, etc.
3) Adding a third omni between two spaced omnis to help fill the middle when mixing to stereo, or to produce three channel stereo (Left/Center/Right).
4) Four (or 5 or 6) channel surround recording.
Most around here are doing 1 or 2 and would probably choose to add closer-spaced directional mics because they are different from the omnis you already have. But there are some like myself who are interested in 3 and 4 and run additional identical mics.
Other reasons would be combining an audience pair and an on-stage pair of mics, adding a couple individual instrument mics, or combining an on-stage/stagelip or audience pair with a 'stack' or stage monitor mic sort of like combining mics and soundboard patch.. yet all those require mics in two different locations, which is arguably more often useful than combining four mics in the same location to stereo.
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If it were me, and those were my choices, I think I would go with a pair of hypers XY + a pair of omnis split about a foot, flanking the hypers, evenly spaced. Which hypers? That's up to you, I'd probably go with whichever is easiest to mount...
A lot of people will probably disagree with the XY and only 1' spacing, but I'm a headphone/earbud listener, and wide splits become unlistenable to me. By using XY on the hypers, there is no phasing. All your phasing is decided by how much omni you add, along with most of your bass response. By keeping the omni split to 1', you can also keep them under an umbrella if it rains.
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By using XY on the hypers, there is no phasing. All your phasing is decided by how much omni you add, along with most of your bass response.
Interesting, can you expand on this concept Joe?
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Thinking about doing this for a few upcomming shows. Running bsc2 omnis > littlebox > tascam dr-07 and berliner cm-33's cards > Marantz PMD661 both at NOS and the omni's would be slightly higher and about 1 inch further apart than the cards Don't know if that would really be the best way to go but don't think I can really do any other configuration with my mic clips.
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By using XY on the hypers, there is no phasing. All your phasing is decided by how much omni you add, along with most of your bass response.
Interesting, can you expand on this concept Joe?
I like doing that too for the same reasons, although I personally prefer more space between omnis. I didn't want to go into specifics above, but when running omnis + directionals my thinking goes in two directions:
1) Spaced omnis work on a time-of-arrival basis for stereo. X/Y configs are purely difference in level based stereo with no time-of-arrival differences. Near spaced configurations like ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc. combine the two approaches and are a sort of a practical compromise between the two. Since I'll be combining different configurations myself, I figure I'm likely to have less potential phase problems if one pair is coincident and thus has no phase differences itself. That's purely a practical thing to make mixing easier and more likely to work well. It's one pair being coincident that makes the difference in this case. The choice of weather to use cardioids vs hypers vs fig-8s for he X/Y pair is separate choice based on other considerations.
I also figure it may be more productive to combine the more different approaches to give me more of a chance to optimize things one way or the other. If I have wide openness from the omnis, I don't have to worry as much about the X/Y sounding center heavy and narrow on their own. Some of that might be exactly what the omni recording needs.
Taking that deeper, if you are into messing around with post work, you can play with ways of further emphasizing the influence of the omni pair on the low freqeuncies and the directional pair on the higher frequencies by EQing them differently. Since the directional ability of human hearing becomes more phase based at frequencies below ~700Hz and level-difference based at frequencies above that, choosing configs that optimizes each pair for opposite ends of the hearing range might be useful. You can go yet further down that road by using complementory highpass and lowpass filters that cross-over completely between frequency ranges. That approach should also reduce any phase interactions outside the cross-over reigon significantly, but you need to set up the filters carefully so the transition sounds smooth. If you want to run a near spaced config and the spaced omnis* and find you have phasing problems, that approach should help reduce the phasiness, but it's more complicated than what most tapers want to do. Schoeps makes mic level filters designed to low pass their omnis around 100 Hz to extend the bottom response of their hypers and 8s in combined arrays where each capsule handles its own range without interference from the other.
Sorry to make this over complicated, but mixing multiple channels of mics brings complications, which is partially my point.
Thinking about doing this for a few upcomming shows. ..the omni's would be slightly higher and about 1 inch further apart than the cards ..
2) The other way of going, which to reduces potential phase problems with four mics in near-spaced configurations is to place the omnis and directional mic as close together as possible, so that the different mics are coincident on each side. Usually that means spacing the omnis pretty close to match the near-spacing of the directional mics, which is likely to compromise the omni recording on it’s own, but eliminates phase problems when mixing the two pairs. This works for tweaking frequency balance using the two pairs, and also changes the polar pattern as they are mixed in various combinations.
To connect that idea to another recent thread, one unusual arrangement I think would be very useful for recording from farther back is spaced hypers pointing directly ahead, like spaced omnis (more spacing between them than usual to compensate for no angle). That would maximally reduce all off-axis sound, reverberation and room echo that is usually the main problem from recording from farther back. If a second pair of omnis were arranged coincident with the hypers, you could dial in a balance between more bass extension and ambient room sound (omnis) and less bass and room sound but more direct clarity from the (hypers) without introducing any phasing.
Basically if you are planning to mix the two pairs, and are concerned about phase problems, you either want them as close together or as far apart as practical.
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By using XY on the hypers, there is no phasing. All your phasing is decided by how much omni you add, along with most of your bass response.
Interesting, can you expand on this concept Joe?
What Gutbucket said.
I don't claim the 1' split is ideal for everyone. How did I arrive at that distance? I put my JZ Omnis on my every-day T-bar and they would just about reach NOS pattern (12" x 45*). I listened to it and decided I liked that a hell of a lot better with headphones than I did a 3' split, or even a 2' split. I haven't done incremental tests at 16", 18", 20", etc. Gutbucket probably has. I'm just saying that "1 foot doesn't suck" and given a practical limitation like trying to stay under an umbrella it's good enough. Part of this whole thread was "I don't want to run my Schoeps in the rain", so to me practical limitations were a reality for this case. It's interesting timing, because I was in this same dilemma myself recently.
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Thanks Gutbucket and SmokinJoe for elaborating on this matter!
I will definitely try the X/Y Hypers + 1 foot split omnis. Sounds very interesting indeed! :)
Thumbs up!
N.
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I've always liked card/hypers in DIN/DINa when taping outdoors (well, actually that's the only config I ran in the past 2+ years for open taping). Outdoors just sounds so much better than indoors most of the time regardless of what pattern you run.
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I would run hypers/DINa since youre already doing the omnis. That way you have an omni AND a directional recording, and I bet that would SMOKE in a matrix :)
I've always liked card/hypers in DIN/DINa when taping outdoors (well, actually that's the only config I ran in the past 2+ years for open taping). Outdoors just sounds so much better than indoors most of the time regardless of what pattern you run.
100% agreed!
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I would run hypers/DINa
But that's so out of charater for you Bean! ;)
I kid of course.
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I would run hypers/DINa
But that's so out of charater for you Bean! ;)
I kid of course.
Totally not me ;D
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I will definitely try the X/Y Hypers + 1 foot split omnis. Sounds very interesting indeed! :)
Judging from the venues I usually bump into nicegrin, this would have to be adapted to a stealth scenario.
Or are we assuming open taping here?
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Yeah, I guess body-worn or scenarios where you don´t have a stand atleast :p
I did try the split omnis (~1 foot) + DINa-ish hypers just recently and the matrix of the two sound pretty damn sweet! :)
Will try the X/Y hyper config soon too!