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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: brokenviolin on August 22, 2011, 09:30:20 AM
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Hi guys, just come across the forum and looks like you could offer me some help i need.
Im looking to record a rock band at manchester, uk tomorrow night.
Here's how they sound. Sebadoh, 3piece, bass drums and guitar, with shared vocals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyLgkDSqJWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyLgkDSqJWM)
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Have purchased an Edirol R-09. And Sony ECM -719 microphone, alongside sandisk sdhc 4gb card.
I was wondering what setting/levels am i most likely to us? Heard its better to record in high quality WAV rather than mp3.
As ive not recorded anything since buying the device a few weeks ago. Also best place to position myself?
The venue holds about 4to500 people and long thin room.
Hope i dont come across as too much of a novice!
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Set your recorder to record at 24/48. 24 bit will allow you to run your levels a little low (to be sure you don't go over 0db which will cause distortion). I would try to get your levels to peak around -6db. Not sure where to start with setting your levels, but you'll have to fine tune it to the loudness of where you are standing.
Best place to stand is where it sounds the best in the venue. Generally I'll start by standing as far back as the speakers are apart. If there is a railing where the floor drops near that, I would stand there so you'll be above the people in front of you. Even if you're a little out of the sweet spot I find standing at a railing makes an overall better recording because you'll eliminate half of the potential talkers around you.
Make sure you fully familiarize yourself with the recorder.
I'm pretty sure Sebadoh is okay with taping (could be wrong on that though). If they (and the venue) are cool with it, it might be nice to set up openly with a stand so you can run your mics higher up.
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cheers Mike, im sure its just gonna be trial and error until i can figure it out.
Would it make any difference with the AGC just on?
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Don't know what AGC is, but if it's automatic anything keep it off.
Sounds like automatic levels. Don't use that. I just set my levels at around -6db and let it roll. Unlikely that you'll go over 0db unless the first song is quiet. I'll double check my levels if it sounds particularly loud or louder than normal.
If it's strictly a stealth situation set your levels a little lower (down to -12db is safe) and boost the levels in post production.
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For sure, use 24/48 to record in. Newbs don't usually realize how important it is to get those extra bits. It's not just about how the recording sounds, it's how much information is there to let you tweek the recording afterwards. Minor miracles can sometimes happen in post with digital recordings (EQ, normalization, etc) if the data is there. If it's not there, nothing you can do.
In that regard, an audio recording is no different than a digital photo. It doesn't look any different when viewed from a distance, but when you zoom in, it's night and day. So, up to a point the more data there is the more you can do with a recording. Most of us do agree though that beyond 24/48 for audience recordings, it's mostly overkill.
The reason it's better to leave AGC off is that when AGC kicks in it can affect the sound of a recording...you can sometimes hear it kicking in and when you do, it's not always pretty (although level controllers on some recorders, like the M10, are fairly transparent). Since it's easy to adjust levels upward in post, the better option is recording at 24/48 with your levels set low so that you never have to worry about your levels peaking over zero. As a compromise, some people will run low levels AND set AGC on just as a safety valve in case there's ever a ridiculously loud passage during the show. that's extremely rare though.
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Sorry for piling on, but getting to know your recorder before you go to the venue is REALLY good advice too. It doesn't matter who you are, we've all messed up recordings because we didn't pay enough attention to a setting here or there. The one that's probably not applicable to you is that some recorders need you to hit the record button twice before you start rolling. So many recordings have been messed up by new Sony M10 users that only press once.
What I typically recommend is practicing at home by memorizing all of the buttons and then practice operating your deck by feel with the lights off. If you're able to do this, your confidence level will go up 100 times at the gig and you'll be looking at your recorder alot less often during the show. Lots of recordings get messed up simply because we have no confidence and need to check our recording 50 times during the show...and handling the deck that many times is what causes an issue...a bumped button or a disconnected cable.
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tonedeaf, cheers for your help. have been messing around with the recorder for a few weeks, this is just the first gig ive had chance to test it out on.
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I think this will be in the Academy 3 - in which case I find that the best spot is either in front of one of the speaker stacks or clamped to the stack of cases next to the mixing desk.
The soundman is very possibly going to be a guy called Tony -you can't miss him: powerfully built black guy with a mohican- he's a bit terse but he's a good guy and has given me sbd patches on numerous occasions for taper-friendly bands. Just be sure to be early and bring all the necessary leads if that's the way you want to go.
I used to use an ECM-717 which I think is very similar to your mic and was always disappointed by the rather boxy sound it gave, particularly in this room. Be prepared for the vocals to sound a bit muted, especially if you mount the mic on your body. Having said that, it always seemed to work better with sparser sounding bands and I seem to remember making a fairly decent recording of the Folk Implosion in the Academy 3 several years ago.
One other thing with that mic - with the 717 I found that I had to power it with an internal battery and plug it into the line-in on my DAT to avoid distortion. Not sure what the power provided by the R09's mic-in is like but you might want to look into that more deeply before tomorrow.
My advice would be to mount the mic by the sound board on those crates and follow the rest of the advice given above.
If you're going to be doing a bit of taping in Manchester please drop me a line, I've got a few bits and bobs of kit that you might like to have a play around with and I've taped in virtually every venue in the city.
And, most importantly, be sure to enjoy the show... Best of luck.
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Yousef, cheers for ya help.
Is indeed in academy 3.
Dont think i'll be down early...travelling across from yorkshire, 2hr drive...so wont be there til gone 8pm.
Was planning on just clipping the mic onto my shirt/lapel. The mic has fresh battery in it. Will see if makes an difference putting it into the line-in connection and see if its any different/better.
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I'm pretty sure Sebadoh is okay with taping (could be wrong on that though). If they (and the venue) are cool with it, it might be nice to set up openly with a stand so you can run your mics higher up.
correct....they are open
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Dont think i'll be down early...travelling across from yorkshire, 2hr drive...so wont be there til gone 8pm.
Was planning on just clipping the mic onto my shirt/lapel. The mic has fresh battery in it. Will see if makes an difference putting it into the line-in connection and see if its any different/better.
Remember to go mic-in, not line-in. Otherwise you won't have enough gain.
And do tape the support act if there is any. It will help you to calibrate the levels, and if there are any issues with the gear you'd discover them early.
Mic placement: the higher the better, but in this case (single point stereo) I guess collar-level is OK if you're tall or standing at an elevated position. Make sure to have some space in front of you.
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Thanks again for all the messages and advice. Very much appreciated and will be taken on board tonite! I know its not going to be perfect. Trial and error, but you've all been very kind and helpful.
Some of the advice will prove really good for future concert and venues that have some of the features mentioned.
Cheers guys
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Before the show, set up the recorder at home with all neccessary settings so you don´t have to fiddle around at the venue with that.
WAV, 24 / 48, all kind of automatics off
insert the memory card and do full format in the recorder. Even when you used the card without problems before, doing the full format you are more safe against errors during recording, and if the full format is done successful you know the card is OK. (If the recorder has more options, only FULL format counts, not quick format or like that).
be sure of fresh batteries in the recorder and in the preamp or battery box when you got stuff like this.
if you are recording without extra preamp a sony m10 or marantz 620 or 661 is the better option. their internal pres have more power to fire the mics.
use the opening act if it is for recording and do the first metering of the levels.
important learn how the hold button works, some machines the hold button is the same as the power switch, so its important to know in which direction to move the switch (without watching at it), not you want to switch to hold but turned the device off!
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Soooo...last night proved a success in my eyes, so can't thank people enough for there info!
Not come out all sparkling, but a damn sight better than i was expecting for my first go!
so :
Sony ECM 719 > Edirol R-09
44.1KHz / WAV-24bit
Imput set to level '25' (-5 than its maxium)
AGC - off
LOW CUT - off
MIC GAIN - low
I was stood dead centre of the stage 5 rows back from the band/stage. With mic attached to centre of my shirt just below top button
Ive uploaded some snippets to my soundcloud for any feedback http://soundcloud.com/brokenviolin (http://soundcloud.com/brokenviolin)
- Ive uploaded 2 tracks of the original WAV file, and then ive uploaded the same two tracks 'normalized' with Audacity. So i could compare and contrast. Any ideas what else to do with the track would be much appreciated.
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what settings would people recommend for capturing lectures/standup comedy ?
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standup can be difficult because of people laughing, talking, etc. best bet is to get as close to a speaker as possible and run your levels hot
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ive had success just using a dictaphone for comedy and stuff...just bit worried how to go about this with the edirol r09
cheers for ya help
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I taped Eugene Mirman with the R-09 (internal mics), in essentially the same manner I would use a dictaphone to tape a lecture for school. It came out pretty well...
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what settings did you use?
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Got up about 5 feet from a speaker, ran the levels hot, and then applied a good amount of limiting in post. it came out well
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dont wanna appear duno, but im still a novice at this, whats mean by 'ran the levels hot, and then applied a good amount of limiting in post'?
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with limiting means the laughters in the audience will be louder on your recording then the speaker ... especially when you recording on a bad spot or they doesn´t use amplification , like in very small clubs.
with limiter in post pro (cubase, audition, wavelab etc ...) you can set the levels from speaker and audience noice to almost the same so it´s good listenable.
if amplification is used try to record front of a stack.
no amplification, try to get in front row in the center.
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Cheers, got a basic grasp of where to position myself. Off to edinburgh comedy festival this weekend, and was hoping to try capture some of the shows. Has worked alright with a dictaphone and cheap external clip mic onto my shirt pocket.
Im more concerned about what setting to set my recorder too. i.e for a band i used:
Sony ECM 719 > Edirol R-09
44.1KHz / WAV-24bit
Imput set to level '25' (-5 than its maxium)
AGC - off
LOW CUT - off
MIC GAIN - low
- obv thats for a noisey rock band, not sure the same settings will work with 'speech', plus mp3 or wav?? - Again has been pointed out, that record what i can best qulaity/settings possible to im able to play with in post with audacity
-Sorry to anyone on the board that finds my posts abit dopey/novice/repeative. But all gotta start somewhere i suppose!