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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: harimau on August 23, 2011, 12:04:20 PM
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I am trying to convert old records into the digital format as I don't know how long the vinyl records will hold up.
I have purchased an Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB turntable. I am NOT using the USB output as I am not sure how good it might be. So, I take the line output and feed it into a Sony D50 digital recorder as it probably has decent preamps. I keep the recording level below -12dB, though sometimes it has been much lower than that.
I take the digitized output into SoundForge and amplify it till I stay mostly below the 0dB mark with very few instances of clipping. I take the resulting file into Audacity and use the ClickRemoval function to eliminate as many of the clicks as possible. I still have some hiss in the recordings.
Am I doing everything I can or can I do better in transferring vinyl to CDs?
Thanks in advance. :D
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Two thoughts.
1. If you know the material, try to bump the gain into your D50. =12 is a safe number when recording live and can't predict how loud the band will get, but at home i'd shoot for at least -6
2. If you plan on raising levels in Audacity, record 24bit into your D50. This will give you additional resolution on volume, allowing you to increase your levels in post with more accuracy.
The other trick is to remove the gap between tracks, (and add them back in when you burn a disc) or at least lower volume between tracks. During a song the noise of an older record isn't that noticeable, but between tracks you do notice. Did this when I converted tapes to cd, and my brother-in-law a pro musician thought I'd applied noise reduction.
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You should really invest in a real record cleaner, like a vpi. It will do wonders to reduce the noise of your records for these critical transfers. The difference is really dramatic. You can buy one, and sell it later, or build one. But if you are serious about your vinyl, get one and keep it. At the same time, you may want to re-sleeve your vinyl.
Also, the pop/click filter in soundforge may be removing too much or otherwise messing up your recordings. You can always go back and re-filter a master, but you cannot undo the impact of a bad filter. So you should probably save the original, before any noise redux, etc. Soundforge is not known for being a high end tool.
The dynamic range of LPs is fairly limited. It should be pretty easy to keep your peaks plenty high without any clipping.
Good turntables matter... A Lot.
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Good turntables matter... A Lot.
Indeed. ;D
That aside, you have what you have to transfer your vinyl. I'm not familiar with the turntable you purchased, but does it have a phono preamp built into the analog output? A phono pre not only boosts the weak signal from the needle and cartridge, but it also processes the signal through an equalization curve (RIAA curve) that will restore the music's original frequency response. If you go straight out of the turntable and into the D50 without a phono preamp or some kind of RIAA equalization, it's going to sound like shit. If that's the case, you might want to try the USB output.
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don't worry about the RIAA curve, you can apply the eq in Audacity, http://www.kvraudio.com/get/3550.html for a VST plugin.
but better to use the line out (as opposed to phono out) on your turntable if it has it.
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You can buy an excellent phono pre-amp for not much money. And digital filters can introduce artifacts. If the pre-amp does have a line-out, I'd be concerned about the quality of that amp.
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Thanks, everybody.
The Audio-Technica turntable has rave reviews in Amazon.com. It costs about $210. A high-end turntable might run to $1,200 but Audio-Technica is made in the same Chinese factory as the $1,200 turntable with most of the features.
The turntable has a phono-out which would provide for RIAA equalization. But, reading up on RIAA Equalization in Wikipedia, it seems that the standards were not necessarily followed by all LP manufacturers and some like Decca had their own equalization schemes. PHONO-OUT would have to be taken into an amplifier which will then do the RIAA equalization before amplifying the music. So, the best bet seemed to be to take the line output and run it through the LINE-IN of the Sony D-50.
I am not sure the LINE-OUT of the turntable applies RIAA equalization. I must query the manufacturer and get their response on that. Also, RIAA equalization came out after the very late 1950s and I am not sure if the records pressed in India do that kind of technical trickery.
I also plan to convert 78rpm records and have a separate cartridge and needle foe that and RIAA equalization doesn't apply to them or perhaps even to 45 rpm records.
Anyway, I save the original, save the SoundForge-amplified and the Audacity click-removed files. So I can always go back to the source if I need to.
The LPs themselves are not neceassarily in great condition but I am just trying to get the music out of them. I was thinking of 96KHz, 24 bit recording but was advised to stick to 44.1KHz, 16-bit as the source may not be in great condition. Any thoughts on that? Someone also said that going from 48Khz to 44.1KHz sampling would introduce its own errors!
Again, thanks for all the advice and would still like to continue discussing this matter with the knowledgeable folks on Taperssection.
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44hz 24 bit would be my recommendation.
24 bit gives you better resolution for raising volume if you don't get it right during recording.
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I also plan to convert 78rpm records and have a separate cartridge and needle foe that and RIAA equalization doesn't apply to them or perhaps even to 45 rpm records.
If it was pressed after the RIAA standard went into effect, then a 45rpm or 78rpm disc adheres to it. However, the heyday of the 78 was decades before that so it's likely that quite a few do not.
While there might be slight eq variances by the different record companies, the RIAA curve was, and is, a standard that was adopted worldwide in the mid-to-late 1950's. If your pressed vinyl would not sound good on 99% of the world's turntables because you didn't adhere to these standards it would behoove you to do it, no? Prior to the RIAA curve, a lot of record companies had their own (and different) eq curves which is why this initiative was brought about.
I'm in agreement with ScoobieKW on what bit and sampling rate to use when recording your vinyl. That would be your best bet.
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Does it have a true analog line-out without the digi-shizzer thingie processing it first?
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44.1K 16B is fine.
That turntable has RIAA on the the line out. Phono out does not.
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The Audio-Technica turntable has rave reviews in Amazon.com. It costs about $210. A high-end turntable might run to $1,200 but Audio-Technica is made in the same Chinese factory as the $1,200 turntable with most of the features.
In a word, no.
It is the height of comedy to suggest that they are the same, made in the same factory, with just a different price. Maybe Moke is actually building Lencos in China? Who knew!
It isn't about features, it's about sound. Most high end turntables have very few features.
There is a decent chance your line-out is coming through the digital circuit of the turntable. If so, that would be much less than ideal.
Again, a real record cleaner will make a huge difference.
24 bit is the way to go - especially since you're doing processing on it. Create a 16 bit version after all your tweaking.
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It isn't about features, it's about sound. Most high end turntables have very few features.
There is a decent chance your line-out is coming through the digital circuit of the turntable. If so, that would be much less than ideal.
Again, a real record cleaner will make a huge difference.
24 bit is the way to go - especially since you're doing processing on it. Create a 16 bit version after all your tweaking.
I checked out the VPI products. I am doing this work in India where 220V is the voltage. VPI says that they only will sell to dealers in 230V countries! I have the house wired for 110V as well so I guess I could just buy the 110V version but that means I should get the stuff ordered and brought in as someone's baggage from the US, just like I did with the turntable.
The records themselves are not necessarily in great shape. Some of them have the edges bent so that when I put the tonearm on the record, it slides in about 3 minutes worth of music. A couple of records seem to have lost all grooves as the tonearm goes straight toward the spindle!
VPI products are great and seem to be worth every penny but I wonder if I should go to such great efforts when the folks who give me records for transcription have not maintained them properly. That is why I would want to do as much clean-up in software as possible. I am prepared to invest money in that; it is easier to mail a CD to India from the US than ship a 30-lb box that could be held up in Customs!
Thanks again. Keep the suggestions coming!
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I can see where it would be difficult to find a used VPI in India. That might be ideal, because you could use it for a year or two and then sell it for nearly what you paid... Building one is another good alternative.
The cleaner is especially important with records that have not been well cared for. Or those that may have grit that could damage your stylus.
I don't know anything vinyl restoration, but I would expect there are techniques to flatten slightly warped vinyl.
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A VPI vacuum wand is around $80usd. You can hook it up to a wet-dry vac, and have a great record cleaning machine (rcm) system.
There is a sample of a really fine VPI-based DIY record cleaner here, made by carlbeck. I'll find the link for you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=80748.msg1074441#msg1074441
my own DIY VPI-based RCM, the Vactrola:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=319179
The compilation of DIY RCM's:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=318672
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I don't know anything vinyl restoration, but I would expect there are techniques to flatten slightly warped vinyl.
Sandwiched between sheets of glass and baking them in an oven with low heat. Maybe not the best thing for fidelity but it works. Should definitely be practiced on throw-away records first so you get the hang of it. I also remember using even lower heat than described in these links (150-175 F ??) but YMMV.
http://www.unplggd.com/unplggd/how-to-fix-a-warped-record-105604 (http://www.unplggd.com/unplggd/how-to-fix-a-warped-record-105604)
http://lifehacker.com/5438737/repair-warped-vinyl-records-with-two-sheets-of-glass (http://lifehacker.com/5438737/repair-warped-vinyl-records-with-two-sheets-of-glass)
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A little late here...
When I was doing this, 10 or so years back, I set up my SBM-1 with the wal-wart and used that to get the boosted signal from the RCA jacks on the turntable to the Line In on the SBM-1, then ran the 7-Pin to my D8, eventually replacing that with a COAX mod SBM-1 so I could go straight into an R-300.
So it was all DAY back then, but today, I would probably do the same thing with COAX mod SBM-1 straight to a 661 or other device with COAX in.
I got great results with the DAT, and it was a good use of the retired SBM-1.
You could probably pick u a line mod one here pretty cheap, maybe even a COAX mod one. I found that the low levels of the turntables raw output matched the sensitivity of the line in on the SBM-1 perfectly, which is really the only reason I mention it here.
Its fun to do, so enjoy it. When you run out of records it gets kind of lonely!
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The Audio-Technica turntable has rave reviews in Amazon.com. It costs about $210. A high-end turntable might run to $1,200 but Audio-Technica is made in the same Chinese factory as the $1,200 turntable with most of the features.
In a word, no.
It is the height of comedy to suggest that they are the same, made in the same factory, with just a different price. Maybe Moke is actually building Lencos in China? Who knew!
It isn't about features, it's about sound. Most high end turntables have very few features.
There is a decent chance your line-out is coming through the digital circuit of the turntable. If so, that would be much less than ideal.
Again, a real record cleaner will make a huge difference.
24 bit is the way to go - especially since you're doing processing on it. Create a 16 bit version after all your tweaking.
So, someone in China has a contract to produce turntables for some Japanese company. If they want to make a knock-off, why should they redesign anything? That merely adds to the cost of production. Better to just make knock-off copies and change the labels. One would think that is the easiest way out.
So, here is the Audio-Technica turntable that has a direct-drive motor. No belts or pulleys to connect to the turntable. Speed is quartz-controlled. You would then think that speed accuracy is as good as any way-too-high-priced turntable in the market.
But I don't take that for granted. I went and read up on turntables. They say that direct-drive means that motor rumble would be transmitted to the turntable. I suppose I should get a belt-drive turntable where the rubber belt would melt in the tropical heat of India!
Then I looked at the tonearm. It has a pivoted tonearm. I do remember the Bang & Olufson Beograms of the 1980s which featured the tangential tracking tonearms so I read up on them. Seems that tangential tracking may mean zero skating force whereas pivoted tonearms create skating, to counter which anti-skating force needs to be applied, except that the tonearm may experience resonance as it moves up and down the grooves. One author went so far as to claim that a properly balanced pivoted tonearm is better than a tangential tonearm.
The next thing I looked at is the new-fangled pivoted-tangential tonearms. Yes, you got that right. It is a pivoted tonearm that has additional mechanical components that make it behave like a tangential tonearm. One stereo magazine had a $86,000 set-up and claimed it was the ultimate.
Then I looked at moving-coil vs moving-magnet cartridges.
The final point is the phono pre-amp. One would think that these phono pre-amps would be reduced to a single chip selling for pennies so there wouldn't be much savings in substituting one chip for another. There are about 14,0000 articles on phono pre-amps and if you were to believe the TubeCad Journal, the only good pre-amp is one that uses triodes, meaning glowing valves!
The final thing is the stuff on which the turntable is mounted. Someone said that it is not too much to spend a few thousand dollars on a granite base weighing 100 pounds to minimize any vibration as the user walks by. And here I am, actually hitting the turntable intentionally to get the bloody needle to move on to the next track when it gets caught in a crack in the record!
I am glad I stopped reading all the HiFi magazines some 20 years back. The level of snobbery is a bit too high for me.
I suppose I need a $250,000 set-up if I am to meet the high expectations of the HiFi snobs. All to convert vinyl that may never have been maintained properly in the first place if the amount of cracks I encounter is to be believed.
Thanks guys, I learnt a whole lot from your suggestions which sent me off on all this reading! ;D
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. . . and then there is this "must have" :o