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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: jj69 on September 05, 2011, 09:48:51 PM
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Just a quick question for the experts. Perhaps someone knows what's going on here. I've been using some new gear and it seems like my recordings have been emphasizing vocals and drums over guitars. I'm recording loud hard rock type bands playing through a PA in small clubs and theaters.
The gear I'm using is a simple Sound Professionals SP-SPSM-1 mic (omnis in a T configuration) into a 12V battery box into a Sony PCM-M10's line input. Here's the mic:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSM-1
The Sony is recording at 16 bit, 44.1k, with both bass filter and limiter on.
What do you think? Is it because the mics are omins?
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In really small clubs, I've found that when they try and amp the vocals through the stacks, you get bleed through of the drums (cause the singer seems to want to stand right in front of the drummer courtesy of the small stage). I've seen it occur mostly at places where the max capacity is around 100 people. Not saying thats it, but thats whats happened each time I've had this effect.
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A few questions for you.
1) You say new gear. Did this happen with your old gear?
2) This is happening in more than one club/venue?
3) How are you mounting the mic? Wearing it?
4) Typically, where is your location in these clubs? Way up front?
The last two are in bold because I think it's either a location or set-up issue. With that, I'm guessing a mix of the two.
Omnis should not be the issue as to why you are not picking up the other instruments.
I would definitely turn off the limiter and bass cut filter also just for good measure.
On paper, the gear should perform it's intended function.
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1) This did not happen with my old gear in the same venues. Previous setup was an Olympus ME-51S mic (which I believe uses cardioid elements) into an MTII via mic input.
2) Yes. In fact, in the same venues where I used my old gear.
3) I am wearing the mic clipped to my chest with a tie clip. Now that you mention it, with the old gear, I used to leave the mic and the MTII sitting on a table (but in the same location within the venue).
4) I try to stand as far back as possible. I'd say about 3/4 of the way back.
Just to clarify, the mic is picking up the other instruments. It's just that drums and vocals seem to be really pronounced whereas inside the hall, the mix sounded more balanced.
These are venues with capacity between 300 and 500.
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I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on? I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.
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I have my limiter on just in case but run my levels low enough to where it is generally never engaged. I never run with a bass rolloff on my M10.
Could it be that the mix that particular night didn't have the guitars up front in the mix?
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I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on? I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.
I use the bass filter because the battery box I'm using at the moment has no bass rolloff. The Sound Professionals mic has a much wider frequency response (20-20k) than the Olympus (100-15k), so some bass rolloff is needed. The recordings I made without any rolloff were unlistenable, and I hate using EQ in post. Admittedly, the Sony's filter is supposedely rather high (200Hz), so that could be an issue.
As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it. I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it. But what would be the disadvantage of using it? Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise?
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Could it be that the mix that particular night didn't have the guitars up front in the mix?
It sounded fine in the room. This happened with more than one show in more than one venue, but some shows came out better than others.
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I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on? I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.
As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it. I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it. But what would be the disadvantage of using it? Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise?
When I'm not running my 722 line-in, I've run the limiter on it (engages at -4db) and run it so that I'm peaking about 4db under that. The one time I didn't run it the band busted out a didgeridoo and I came home with 30 seconds of solid whomwhom clipping which sounds like ass. The limiter is the lesser of two evils as far as I'm concerned. As long as you set your levels so that it's not engaging except in emergencys, then I wouldn't worry about it, especially if you're using a 24bit recorder which doesn't have noise issues so you can spare 6db or so.
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I'm wondering why do you have the bass filter and limiter on? I never use those and I don't think any tapers on TS rely on those either.
I use the bass filter because the battery box I'm using at the moment has no bass rolloff. The Sound Professionals mic has a much wider frequency response (20-20k) than the Olympus (100-15k), so some bass rolloff is needed. The recordings I made without any rolloff were unlistenable, and I hate using EQ in post. Admittedly, the Sony's filter is supposedely rather high (200Hz), so that could be an issue.
As for the limiter, I'm not aware of any reason not to use it. I set the levels at Sony's suggested -12dB, so I guess I don't really need it. But what would be the disadvantage of using it? Isn't a limiter desirable to prevent clipping from an unexpected noise?
Still, no reason to do this. You should adjust bass in post. The bass rolloff on those small decks is just not any good; also, once it's gone, you can't really put it back. Rolling off at 200Hz, especially depending on the curve it's using, is massive overkill.
Not all limiters are created equal as I understand it. For example, the Sound Devices 722 that page mentions below is a superior quality audiophile deck designed for recording music and FX - its limiter probably works with those applications in mind. The primary purpose of a Sony M10 and units like it is recording speech and that is what its settings such as the limiter and the bass rolloff are set for. When used with music, the results can be unpredictable. It may well be the case that the "limiter" is not working like a typical hard limiter that just prevents clipping, but actually starts compressing and limiting your signal prior to hitting the clip point; in fact, I'd bet it probably does. That is why you'll find pretty much universal agreement on this board that with these small decks like the M10, which are very good when used properly, you should never use these various "automatic" settings the deck has.
As to your original problem, it sounds like one of placement or program material or both. In general with a lot of rock recordings made in the audience, you are going to find that guitars don't come through as clearly as vocals and drums. I find that even running high-end gear, I have some recordings that I am not terribly happy with the guitar on.
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Thanks for the input guys. By the next time I tape, I should have a new batt box with built-in adjustable rolloff. So I can go without the Sony's bass filter or limiter.
I may also try going back to the Olympus, which made some amazing recordings with me through the MTII's mic stage, but no so good into other decks. One thing I just learned is that the MTII's plug-in has a full 5V of plug-in power, more than most other models. I'm thinking it may work well with the Sony throu a full 12V from a proper batt box.
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Plus, you received an answer from aaronji regarding the bass roll off on the M10 in another thread you created:
"I think the "24 dB/octave" means that for every halving of the frequency (i.e. one octave decrease), starting at 200 Hz, the signal will be decreased by 24 dB. So at 100 Hz, down 24 dB. At 50 Hz, down another 24 dB. Pretty drastic low-cut; often it's 6 or 12 dB per octave..."
With my rig I never use the bass roll off or limiter...I just dial it in and leave some room for any loud bursts.
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The Sony is recording at 16 bit, 44.1k, with both bass filter and limiter on.
Switch to at least 24 Bit / 48k, and switch all aids like auto gain, limiter OFF and keep that off (use a patch of Gaffa against switch abuse).
24 Bit = more information, more headroom and better handling for later mastering.
I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.
Even the peaks around -12 are good enough if you wanna do save, you can raise the gain of 24 Bit recording in post much better then a 16 Bit.
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I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.
I never really understood the logic of recording at higher bit rates. I ultimately write everything to CD, so anything would have to be downsampled to 44/16 eventually anyway. If there are valid reasons for doing so, I'll give it a try.
Is 24 bit good enough, or should I also use a higher sampling rate? I've heard that downsampling from 48k to 44k is not good.
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I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.
I never really understood the logic of recording at higher bit rates. I ultimately write everything to CD, so anything would have to be downsampled to 44/16 eventually anyway. If there are valid reasons for doing so, I'll give it a try.
Is 24 bit good enough, or should I also use a higher sampling rate? I've heard that downsampling from 48k to 44k is not good.
1) 24 bit allows you to record at a quieter volume without taking a hit on converter noise. For recording and mastering, 24 bit is great, less so for listening but can still have a benefit if a different mastering touch is used.
2) Downsampling can range from transparent to ugly depending on the algorithm used. A group of us have debated this and ultimately if you know you're material is destined for a CD and never a DVD (audio or video) and you aren't doing any speed manipulating, then 44.1 is fine. I'd dig up the thread but that takes more effort then I want to expend. :P
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I bet you solve the bass and instrument issues if you only only switching to 24Bit, aids off, let the sony run at around -6db on the peaks - gain it during soundcheck or opening act and then leave it.
I never really understood the logic of recording at higher bit rates. I ultimately write everything to CD, so anything would have to be downsampled to 44/16 eventually anyway. If there are valid reasons for doing so, I'll give it a try.
Is 24 bit good enough, or should I also use a higher sampling rate? I've heard that downsampling from 48k to 44k is not good.
I think he's overstating the case for 24 bits - just keep the limiter off, bass cut off...(agree on aids off) - but the bit rate isnt going to make a significant difference in the timber/tonal balance and overall mix of his recording.
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I might guess that a few things might be in play...(I guess this assumes your rig is working decently)
perhaps the guitars aren't in (or fully in) the mix...and are running abit late or out of phase with the PA (which might have some guitar leak as well)
or
Some guitar distortion sounds just record poorly...not sure I can qualify this...but no matter how loud some of these guys seem - it ends up a fuzzy wash. (not sure of the style of music you are recording)
or
Some sound guys just mix the damn drums too loud...throwing off your overall gain picture.
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perhaps the guitars aren't in (or fully in) the mix...and are running abit late or out of phase with the PA (which might have some guitar leak as well)
The only thing is that it sounded fine to my ears in the room.
FYI the style of music is hard rock/melodic metal. Typical lineup: vocals/bass/drums/guitar/guitar.
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BTW, if anyone is willing to listen to a sample recording, please PM me and I'll post it somewhere.
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Yeah, can you do a 2 minute sample and put it up on something like fyels or iput.it?
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I think he's overstating the case for 24 bits - just keep the limiter off, bass cut off...(agree on aids off) - but the bit rate isnt going to make a significant difference in the timber/tonal balance and overall mix of his recording.
Not really, on 16 Bit you get earlier in danger to get clipped on recording. or otherwise you´ve chosen 16 bit and recorded too quiet. Gain with 16 Bit more noise or not enough room for raising gain without clipping some other parts without using compression / limiter.
Today is enough good audio software and the computers fast enough to handle the 24 Bit files. Typical taper usage: Stereo 2 tracks it isn´t that more amount of time you have to use to mixdown to 16/44 again.
running with cubase with highest quality setting for downsampling / dithering back to 16/44 there are no listenable issues. Important: Do a DC offset remove BEFORE downsampling.
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I think he's overstating the case for 24 bits - just keep the limiter off, bass cut off...(agree on aids off) - but the bit rate isnt going to make a significant difference in the timber/tonal balance and overall mix of his recording.
Not really, on 16 Bit you get earlier in danger to get clipped on recording. or otherwise you´ve chosen 16 bit and recorded too quiet. Gain with 16 Bit more noise or not enough room for raising gain without clipping some other parts without using compression / limiter.
Today is enough good audio software and the computers fast enough to handle the 24 Bit files. Typical taper usage: Stereo 2 tracks it isn´t that more amount of time you have to use to mixdown to 16/44 again.
running with cubase with highest quality setting for downsampling / dithering back to 16/44 there are no listenable issues. Important: Do a DC offset remove BEFORE downsampling.
Yeah - but that isnt going make the guitars louder...bitrate just dosen't affect the blend or mix of instruments...the proportion of each instrument in the mix will be the same regardless of bitrate...
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Yeah - but that isnt going make the guitars louder...bitrate just dosen't affect the blend or mix of instruments...the proportion of each instrument in the mix will be the same regardless of bitrate...
Exactly.
What it comes down to is, I think, the OP is hearing a common flaw in live recordings. I find guitars tend to wash out pretty badly at times, getting worse and worse as you go farther back. It's possible that running a tigher polar patterned mic like hypers might help, since you'd get getting more direct sound, and the reverberant sounds you pick up more heavily with omnis and cardiods are likely to overwhelm the guitars or wash them out more. It can be worse, too, in a club where the guitars are run from the amps onstage rather than dedicated PA, because in those situations, the PA is carrying mostly vox and drums. Clubs that choose to operate like that (or have no choice but to) really need to know what they're doing to rely on guitar amps onstage to carry all of the guitar sound.
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perhaps the guitars aren't in (or fully in) the mix...and are running abit late or out of phase with the PA (which might have some guitar leak as well)
The only thing is that it sounded fine to my ears in the room.
FYI the style of music is hard rock/melodic metal. Typical lineup: vocals/bass/drums/guitar/guitar.
Im sure it did - but ears arent microphones.
And - as mentioned up thread, some metal distortion sounds just seem to wash out into a fuzzy mess, regardless how it sounded at the moment.
I might also suggest getting your mic up a bit higher - having it on your chest is perhaps absorbing some of the middle. If these are stealth jobs - get that mic up on top a mesh ball cap...give it some air!
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The weird thing is the OP said this didn't happen with his old gear.
To the OP, what was the old gear?
Also my vote again goes to location and set-up.
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Old gear was Olympus ME-51S mic into the MIC input of a MicroTrack II. That mic is a small T-mic with cardioid elements.
Regarding the position of the mic, I was near the back of the room. The mic was mounted on a tie clip. There was no one standing in the space about 8 feet in front of me, so I'm not sure it would matter if the mic were mounted a bit higher.
I posted a short 2 minute clip here if anyone's interested:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=70CO4IVV
The audio has been normalized, but nothing else was done to it.
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Thanks. Grabbing now.
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A couple of ideas... old mics were cards, right? Pointing towards guitar amp on stage? Therefore picking up a little bit of that directly. Omni's pick up all around, and perhaps the drums and vocals fill the room more. The other idea is simple... different night, different mix. Unless it's the same band, same stage, and nobody touched any knob on the console, it's obviously a huge variable.
I think the idea that 24bit is the magical solution is way overblown. It's probably the biggest myth on this board. It's a good idea, don't get me wrong. I drank the 24 bit cool-aid too. Then I remembered the EE class many years ago where they taught us about PCM, and realized it was silly. You've got a given voltage coming into the A/D. If you have a 24bit voltmeter, it reads to .999999999999. With 16bit it goes to .99999. Yeah that helps, but it's not nearly as cool and magical and sexy as some people like to think it is. The magic needs to happen before the A/D.
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A couple of ideas... old mics were cards, right? Pointing towards guitar amp on stage?
No, the Olympus is a T-mic, so the elements point off to the left and right. Here's the mic:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/496651-REG/Olympus_145037_ME_51S_Stereo_Microphone.html
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Yikes. That recording is.. well to be blunt, pretty bad.
First of all, I may just go out on a limb here and say Sound Pros T-mics, and really, all T-mics, are crap for recording music. Tie clip mics like that are not really designed to do what we we do - they're designed for interviews and other vocal applications, generally. Besides the problems inherent in placing a mic on your chest to record, the main issue here is that the mic is distorting, badly. The M10's way, way overexaggerated bass rolloff has cut out some of the loud frequencies that would cause even more distortion, but even with that, the mic is just not capable of handling the sound pressure levels you are getting.
Again, I ask, why does Sound Professionals sell mics to people who are recording rock music without low-sensitivity mods or 3-wire configurations? Without one or the other, everything in their line will distort when recording a band like Skid Row. If people don't take the time to ask questions before buying, that's their bad I guess, but really, SP has to know at this point that their customer base consists of a lot of tapers, and unless they're taping solo acoustic performances only, most tapers need low sensitivity mods. It really, really, really frustrates me that SP doesn't tell people this.
Based on what I'm hearing, you won't be able to fix your issues with this mic with any settings on the M10 - the M10 can't fix overloading of a mic. In fact, its internal mics may be better than what you got from this thing.
The previous mic you used, the Olympus, has a response curve that if memory serves is all midrange - so it will emphasize some of the frequencies where you find guitars. Of course, it will have little bass, and a host of other problems, like generally sounding bad. I would be surprised if it didn't also distort pretty severely, but I haven't listened to a recording with it.
I would return that product to SP immediately if you can, and either buy one of their mics with the low sensitivity mod that is not a T-mic, or talk to Chris Church on this board. They probably will only give you store credit, so you may be stuck with something they've got.
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Personally, I am gonna say that the mix in that room is horrid.
I have no problem hearing the guitar/drums/vocals. The Guitar sounds a little washed out but is still very present.
NOO BASS TO SPEAK OF but, hey it's a crappy room mix to start and I can't ever remember hearing bass in Skid Row.
I think if you upgrade the mics you will be better. However, a crappy room mix isn't your fault and you have little control over that being far back besides choosing a different polar pattern and narrower set-up which will have very little effect here.
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I don't think it was the room mix. As far as acoustics and PA quality go, this is literally one of the best concert rooms in the northeast. The sound in the room has never been anything short of spectacular.
Acidjack may be right that the mic could be getting overloaded. The odd thing is that I'm using a 12V battery supply with it and the volume in the room is hardly what I would call earsplitting.
The Olympus mic with the MTII (which puts out 5V of PIP through its MIC input) made amazing recordings in this room, dependent on position, of course.
The lack of bass is due to me using the Sony's internal bass cut (200Hz).
Also, I have tried the Sony's internals in this room and it was obvious that they were completely overloaded.
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Just for comparsion's sake, here's a clip of a different artist in the same room, recorded about a year ago with the Olyumpus/MTII combination:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=W89RE5R9
I think it's obvious that this is a significantly better recording. The Olympus' claimed frequency response is 100Hz - 15kHz, so it's rolling off the bass in a good place.
I don't think there's any sign of that mic getting overloaded.
I'm not sure what was going on with that Olympus/MTII combination. I was very happy with it, but the MTII has become too unreliable to keep using. I don't know if the "magic" I was hearing with that combo came from the mic, the MTII, or some synergistic match between the two. I have tried the Olympus mic with other decks (Tascam and the Sony) using the MIC input with poor results. Either the MTII has an outstanding mic stage, or the problem is the PIP of the other decks. I recently learned that the MTII's mic input supposedly has 5V of PIP, which is a lot higher than most decks (most are 3V or less). That's why I'm thinking of trying the Olympus into a 12V battery box into the LINE IN of the Sony. Perhaps that will provide enough power and give me the same result I got with the old combo?
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Yes it's overloaded but that has zero to do with you original post and question.
The vocals drown out the instruments in the mix that you recorded. I have no doubt that some spots in the room it sounded great.
But the mic wasn't capturing that mix. The guitar doesn't sound that bad but the bass is nonexistent. But you know why.
I wouldn't worry about this recording to be honest. If you are now concerned with the distortion
acidjack says it, get new mics.
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The 12V BB could be more than the mic can handle. Some mics can take higher voltages than others. The spec sheet says it's good for 1.5V-10V. So that is part of your problem right there.
I wasn't even getting to the question of the room mix - which also seems bad - because the distortion is the most evident problem. That and the total elimination of all bass.
I am not 100% sure I agree that you wouldn't hear more guitars if the distortion wasn't present. The guitars and the distortion kind of wash together for me.
I'd put little faith in that 100-15,000 figure... also it's more than just the response, it's how flat the response is at those different levels. My guess with this thing is "not very" as it's not designed to be - it's designed for speech.
Look at the online reviews for it - almost everyone is using these for lectures and other speech applications, where something that accentuated say, the vocal range, would be ideal.
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Well, at least we are in agreement (I said the mix and distortion in my PM a couple days ago).
Some gear highlights certain elements of a performance. Some gear I don't think produces a realistic, pleasant, or balanced recording, but it can technically produce one without failure (e.g. no distortion).
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I listened to your first sample, and as noted above, it really does not sound particularly good at all. I ran it through a compressor, which at least brought down the vocals relative to the rest of the signal, and the guitar at the end of the clip sounded markedly better. But as people have suggested, you are never going to get a better recording than your mic can produce. I think that you would find a vast improvement with CA or any other small card mics, mounted on glasses or in a hat. Even though there may not have been anyone on the floor for several feet in front of you, the sound level and clarity drop dramatically as you lower the height level down. Just duck down a foot or more at the next show you are at and see what I mean. Height usually means unobstructed space between you and the sound source, which translates into much clearer recordings.
Depending on the club, and how they mix (or don't mix) certain instruments, you have to place your mics accordingly. If all of the guitar is coming out of the stage amps, and your are further back with omnis, you are going to get a muddled sound, particularly when you have the mics attached to you with a tie clip, which in and of itself is blocking some of the sound. Using cards, with a narrower angle (if all the guitar is coming off the stage in particular) should result in a significant improvement.
As already noted, do NOT run your limiter at all, and avoid using the built-in bass roll-off of a deck like the M-10. You can always EQ in post (which is not the sin that certain people make it out to be). It is very difficult, if not impossible to replace completely rolled off and otherwise distorted low end. Finally, 24 bit will do nothing to resolve your crux issue here. The benefit of 24 bit is being able to run at lower levels, assuring that you will not need that limiter, and allowing you to raise the level in post, without increasing the noise floor. If you can, borrow a pair of cards, run them in a hat, and see what happens. I seriously doubt that any of your prior recordings coming out great was due to any "magic" associated with the Micro-crapper. :P