Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: George2 on September 10, 2011, 05:13:41 PM
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http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100093
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A curious beast.
The idea of combining closely spaced omnis with 90 degree cardioids to obtain any kind of worthwhile stereo image is a bit silly - it would have made more sense, but not much more, had the cadioids been set at a wider angle to compensate for the omnis which will always have the effect of narrowing the effective image width. Or they could have gone for an MS arrangement with a omni mid mic (and saved the expense of one capsule).
Having XLR and PiP inputs could be handy for some, and there are various other interesting features, but the most notable development at the price point is the provision of a touch screen display. It's implied that this can be used for waveform editing as well as menu selection. But then again, most users would have access to a DAW of some sort for that purpose so unless you are reporting for radio from the jungle, I'm not sure how really handy such a feature would be.
What is the price point? I'm guessing a street price about the same as a D50.
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Interesting! Up to three mic pairs can be recorded simultaneously. Or a WAV and an MP3 version of a stereo recording can be simultaneously recorded.
The r26 has four stereo mic inputs: built-in omni, built-in XY, 3.5mm stereo jack with plug-in power, and a pair of XLR-TRS combo inputs with 48V phantom power. According to the web site, you can listen to the four mic pairs (one pair at a time), and then choose which three to record. Recording medium is the full-size SDHC card (rather than those tiny micro-SD cards that are so hard to find when you drop them in the dark).
Dimensions of 7.125 x 3.250 x 1.625 inches and weight of 14 ounces (probably without battery) means the r26 is a little smaller than the Marantz PMD661, a little larger than the Zoom H4n, and the same size as the Tascam DR-100. The r26 is about half the size of the Edirol R-44 (also a Roland product).
The battery is four AA cells. Maximum draw, according to Roland, is 500 mA. That would translate to a realistic recording time of 3-4 hours, depending on the type of AA cell used.
Flintstone
update: Roland says "The preamps for all mic channels are derived from the hi-res preamps found in Roland’s R-44 4-Channel Portable Recorder."
http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=145356
It will be interesting to hear if "are derived from" translates into "sounds as good as."
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Interesting deck. Having the full-size XLR's is good but including digi in/out would have been better.
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So looks like it's similar to the Zoom H4n (at least in functionality), but could also record with the internal mics?
Pity they didn't add another input, would love to have the XLR + 2 sets of 1/8" inputs for a total of 6 external tracks for something that small.
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They should have dropped the omni mics and added another set of input jacks.
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They should have dropped all the omni mics and added two more another sets of input jacks.
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Anybody know if it would be possible to wire in a 1/8" input that would go before the mic pre-amp?
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Yeah, it looked promising until they only allow 1 additional line in. Their is only one line in the other input is a 1/8" mic in so I would assume this is going through the preamp.
Too bad they didn't allow you to bypass all the mics.
I guess they didn't want to impact R-44 sales.
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looks nice, love it got really good handy gain wheels. and a nice contender running good mics without extra pre´s in the chain
but on this unit this silly 2 cent power / hold switch with risk turning it off if you wanna "hold" it just bollocks. even my cheapo 100 Euro backup device has single switches for power and hold ...
so my suggest for the mk2: drop half the 150 internal mics and add proper power / hold switch :p
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Dimensions of 7.125 x 3.250 x 1.625 inches and weight of 14 ounces (probably without battery) means the r26 is a little smaller than the Marantz PMD661, a little larger than the Zoom H4n, and the same size as the Tascam DR-100. The r26 is about half the size of the Edirol R-44 (also a Roland product).
The R-26 is actually quite a bit bigger (cubic footprint) than both the DR-100 and the 661 (although the 661is a tad heavier):
R-26 dimensions: 3-1/4 x 7-1/8 x 1-10/16 inches (82 x 180 x 41 mm)
R-26 Weight 14 oz. (370 g)
DR-100 Dimensions (WxHxD) 3.1 x 6 x 1.4" (80 x 153 x 35mm)
DR-100 Weight 10.2 oz (290g) (Without Batteries)
PMD661 dimensions: Width 93mm (3.7”) x Height 165mm (6.5”) x Depth 36mm (1.4”)
PMD661 Weight 410g (14 oz.)
Found out about pricing:
"Scheduled for release in mid-October with an MSRP of $599"
From http://www.sonicscoop.com/2011/09/12/roland-announces-r-26-six-channel-portable-field-recorder/
My verdict: if you need a small recorder with four external mics (one pair PIP, one pair P48), you might as well spend the money on a DR-2d and a Littlebox! Maybe the added convenience of an all-in-one makes it's worth paying for the R-26?! ;D
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Hmmmm, anyone have one yet? Or are they still not released?
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Scheduled for release in mid-October with an MSRP of $599.
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So street ~ $399 ?
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Looks interesting. I might have preferred this to my recently acquired dr-2d just for the xlr ins.
This is really reminiscent of the h4n.
Another vote to ditch the omnis for a regular line in and/or digi-in. But keep the on-board cards, those are always useful on a small handheld like this.
Success of the unit will depend on build quality, battery life, street price, and quality of internal mics and pres. If those all score well, than count me in. Can't wait for reviews!
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So could I record using 2 sets of mics simulataneously - one set with xlr's and one set with 1/8 stereo plug?
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So could I record using 2 sets of mics simulataneously - one set with xlr's and one set with 1/8 stereo plug?
It certainly looks that way. But there are only two level knobs, not sure how you would get four tracks to record at proper levels. A menu selection? I want to go line-in to the 1/8" stereo input, I hope plug-in power is deselectable.
Jeff
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So could I record using 2 sets of mics simulataneously - one set with xlr's and one set with 1/8 stereo plug?
It certainly looks that way. But there are only two level knobs, not sure how you would get four tracks to record at proper levels. A menu selection? I want to go line-in to the 1/8" stereo input, I hope plug-in power is deselectable.
Jeff
Yes me too, i would like to use a preamp on my 1/8" stereo input and use the 48V phantom to power the XLR's. I like the 2 input knobs and 2 or 3 sets of level readout on the front. Only problem for me is it looks a tad big for stealthing, certainly a lot bigger than i am used to smuggling in to shows.
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looks nice, love it got really good handy gain wheels. and a nice contender running good mics without extra pre´s in the chain
but on this unit this silly 2 cent power / hold switch with risk turning it off if you wanna "hold" it just bollocks. even my cheapo 100 Euro backup device has single switches for power and hold ...
so my suggest for the mk2: drop half the 150 internal mics and add proper power / hold switch :p
Yeah that dual switch looks mighty dangerous, extremely stressful and fiddly in the dark at the very least - REALLY daft idea whoever came up with that......
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The Roland website makes it seem like they're actually the exact same pre-amps used in the R-44:
"The R-26 inputs are equipped with high-performance mic preamps directly inherited from Roland’s R-44 professional recorder for the highest level of sound quality."
http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100093 (http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100093) <-- Under "More Info".
update: Roland says "The preamps for all mic channels are derived from the hi-res preamps found in Roland’s R-44 4-Channel Portable Recorder."
http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=145356
It will be interesting to hear if "are derived from" translates into "sounds as good as."
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Dear Roland,
I like your gear because it's simple, reliable, and works well, but this one seems a bit of a bastard child with an identity crisis as well as a 'me too' product. You missed a chance to differentiate yourselves by having six analog inputs by pennys. Put two additional mini-jack stereo inputs on the side in the avaiable panel space right next to the existing one. Make them all switchable to line-input sensitivity via a software switch. That would be cool. Oh well, too late. But that's OK, I'd rather you do that on a new R-09 sized recorder without the XLRs & phantom. Bonus points if one of the minijacks doubles as an optical SPDIF in.
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Noticed this on the acessories page:
(http://us.sanyo.com/Dynamic/ImageManager/eneloop/9V3U%20Pedal%20Juice/MainImageSuiteCase_thumb-wt.jpg)
Pedal Juice: Rechargeable 9V Power (available from Sanyo) usage notes:
Power plug connects natively to any Roland field recorder powered by the PSB-1U power supply.
Supplies ~8 hours of continuous power to R-44, ~12 hours of continuous power to R-26 and ~3.5 hours of continuous power to R-4 Pro.
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Somewhat overpriced I would have thought -
http://www.amazon.com/Sanyo-Pedal-Rechargeable-Effects-Pedals/dp/B003U4O644
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I didn't look far enough to find a price, but simply due to all the overblown Sanyo marketing speak and branding I suspected it would be overpriced. For an additional hundred bucks maybe you could get one that does exactly the same thing but has an illuminated silloette on the case of a piece of fruit with a single leaf attached to it. Still, I'm holding out for the overpriced Monster Dr Beats model with celebrity endorsements and rhinestones on it.
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Dear Roland,
I like your gear because it's simple, reliable, and works well, but this one seems a bit of a bastard child with an identity crisis as well as a 'me too' product. You missed a chance to differentiate yourselves by having six analog inputs by pennys. Put two additional mini-jack stereo inputs on the side in the avaiable panel space right next to the existing one. Make them all switchable to line-input sensitivity via a software switch. That would be cool. Oh well, too late. But that's OK, I'd rather you do that on a new R-09 sized recorder without the XLRs & phantom. Bonus points if one of the minijacks doubles as an optical SPDIF in.
Right on the mark and well said.
The Eneloop battery sounded promising until I saw the pricetag that Ozpeter found. If they halved the price (or more), they might have a contender. For around the same cost you could get a more versatile Tekkeon power source.
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Sweetwater says they expect the Roland R-26 to arrive by the end of October. The pre-order price is $499.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R26
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Anyone have one yet or an order in?
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This looks pretty cool but I don't find it to be anything that exciting especially at the asking price. I know it can record many channels at once and it has a touch screen, but I think I would rather have a fr2LE or PMD661 with its digital inputs. (especially since you can get them for less money).
I really don't like the marketing "Application Examples" here: http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/products/100093
but at least they are not saying you can record everything with the internal mics.
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Can a couple of these be linked together with sample accuracy?
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Noise figures (very respectable) have now been published at http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm
Note that there are two entries, one for the XLR inputs and one for the mini input.
"The R-26 inputs are equipped with high-performance mic preamps directly inherited from Roland’s R-44 professional recorder for the highest level of sound quality."
Maybe the above tests give some feel for where the R-44 fits in the scheme of things - oddly it's never been rated at avisoft.
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Anybody got one of these yet? They are retailing in the UK for £349.
The user manual is now up on the Roland site and I haven't read it cover to cover, but apart from the dual hold-power switch issue, it seems another problem is that the hold switch does NOT disengage the two level dials. I have no idea how stiff or 'mechanised' these dials are and therefore how easy it would be to inadvertantly change the levels during a show, but the manual does give a warning in this regard.
These two issues to me are sufficient to tell me i would have a problem at some time or another with this recorder whilst trying to stealth, but I would like to know if anyone has any direct experience that says otherwise.
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I saw one in a shop in Los Angeles... really oversized piece of plastic.
Seemed too fiddle-ie with all it's options....would rather KISS and have FE2-LE.
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Perusing the Manual PDF....Page 40 shows PiP power can be switched off and on...Page 45-46 shows selecting and assigning Analog (XLR?), PiP and Int Mic to Input Knobs..4 channels make sense....but it lost me when 6 channels are used...
http://www.rolandsystemsgroup.com/assets/media/pdf/r26_manual_e02_W.pdf
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Six channels: two from built in mics, two from XLR, and two from 3.5mm jack on the side. Or four channels from built-in mics and two XLR. Recorded as three stereo pairs.
One mystery is how you set the XLR for mic or line level input. Most recorders have a mic/line switch. I didn't see one on the R-26.
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Six channels: two from built in mics, two from XLR, and two from 3.5mm jack on the side. Or four channels from built-in mics and two XLR. Recorded as three stereo pairs.
One mystery is how you set the XLR for mic or line level input. Most recorders have a mic/line switch. I didn't see one on the R-26.
Hmmm, maybe its in the menu ???
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Interesting, but I'd rather see an M10 formfactor device with 6 channel stuff. (and make the 3rd pair internal mics or external line/mic, please)
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Interesting, but I'd rather see an M10 formfactor device with 6 channel stuff. (and make the 3rd pair internal mics or external line/mic, please)
x2
3 minijacks, with the ability to set the identical input sensitivities and adjust gain for all of them simultaneously.
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I purchased one recently, used it twice now...
When running KM184's > Mixpre XLR out > R-26 I am getting digi noise throughout the entire recording. I've adjusted the 'sensitivity' settings etc. and still it's distorting.... Mixpre mini-jack > R-26 minijack is ok on the lowest setting (however not sure if it is bypassing the internal preamp). SBD XLR > R-26 is ok. Not sure why they Mixpre XLR output is distorting... anyone have this issue?
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Six channels: two from built in mics, two from XLR, and two from 3.5mm jack on the side. Or four channels from built-in mics and two XLR. Recorded as three stereo pairs.
One mystery is how you set the XLR for mic or line level input. Most recorders have a mic/line switch. I didn't see one on the R-26.
You set both the PIP and input sensitivity of the XLRs via the touchscreen. Well, rather, you turn phantom and PIP off/on and then set the input sensitivity. Same concept as on Edirol R-44. It doesn't have "MIC/LINE" like the 680 does.
The only thing I dislike is while you can turn the minijack sensitivity all the way down, I"m not sure if even at its lowest setting it is still a true "line-in".
I have run the Aerco as well as an SBD feed into that jack with no issues though.
Not sure what would cause the issue mentioned re: the MP-2 other than that the input sensitivity must have been set too high.
One thing I would not do is use that auto gain stuff. Just as dumb as using that stuff on another recorder.
Also: as to the HOLD/OFF switch - it will not turn off while recording. If you are turning off HOLD and accidentally push to OFF it tells you you are recording and denies the command.
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looks nice, love it got really good handy gain wheels. and a nice contender running good mics without extra pre´s in the chain
but on this unit this silly 2 cent power / hold switch with risk turning it off if you wanna "hold" it just bollocks. even my cheapo 100 Euro backup device has single switches for power and hold ...
so my suggest for the mk2: drop half the 150 internal mics and add proper power / hold switch :p
Yeah that dual switch looks mighty dangerous, extremely stressful and fiddly in the dark at the very least - REALLY daft idea whoever came up with that......
it has a 'auto sense' setting that automatically adjusts the gain... if you select auto-sense feature, it says for example, '52', so you manually turn the gain knob, however it says the setting on the backlit screen (1-100). You can set each channel separately...
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I purchased one recently, used it twice now...
When running KM184's > Mixpre XLR out > R-26 I am getting digi noise throughout the entire recording. I've adjusted the 'sensitivity' settings etc. and still it's distorting.... Mixpre mini-jack > R-26 minijack is ok on the lowest setting. SBD XLR > R-26 is ok. Not sure why they Mixpre XLR output is distorting... anyone have this issue?
Are you running the mixpre and r26 off a common DC power source?
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I purchased one recently, used it twice now...
When running KM184's > Mixpre XLR out > R-26 I am getting digi noise throughout the entire recording. I've adjusted the 'sensitivity' settings etc. and still it's distorting.... Mixpre mini-jack > R-26 minijack is ok on the lowest setting. SBD XLR > R-26 is ok. Not sure why they Mixpre XLR output is distorting... anyone have this issue?
Are you running the mixpre and r26 off a common DC power source?
I am using Energizer Lithium AA's for the R-26 and Mixpre.
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I was thinking a grounding problem - have you tried a different set of XLRs?
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I was thinking a grounding problem - have you tried a different set of XLRs?
I tried XLR's and XLR/TRS.
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I've been running the R-26 since last summer and in my experience the 1/8" input is about the same for hot line in signals as the Sony D8 was. In other words, it doesn't handle especially hot signals. Use the 1/8" output of the MixPre and set the 1/8" input of the R-26 to Low and you should be fine.
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I asked Roland for these:
- remote control so there's no handling noise
- lower low pass filter freqs (40 and 80hz)
- optionally treat 1/8" as line input instead of mic input
- optionally treat headphone out as line output instead of headphone output
At least the guy said the requests were forwarded to R&D, though that'll probably take forever for a V2 given how slow Roland is at releasing gear updates :-P
So if nothing else, take a few moments and email Roland on their contact page if you're missing anything ;-)
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Any further input on the Mixpre > analog in > R-26 distorting?
The Mixpre analog/xlr outputs are LINE OUT and I've set the analog inputs on the R-26 to +4dBU.
I'm using this gear tonight, not sure what the issue is...
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The Mixpre analog/xlr outputs are LINE OUT and I've set the analog inputs on the R-26 to +4dBU.
You must likely need to add a pad cable to reduce the output level of the line level outputs to mic level...
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Are my posts hidden here?
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Are my posts hidden here?
I see one from 3/6.
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I've been running the R-26 since last summer and in my experience the 1/8" input is about the same for hot line in signals as the Sony D8 was. In other words, it doesn't handle especially hot signals. Use the 1/8" output of the MixPre and set the 1/8" input of the R-26 to Low and you should be fine.
This is likely what i'll use for recording tonight, but the tape out is unbalanced... there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
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there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
See this post in the other thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155475.msg2014746#msg2014746
You are sending IIRC +16dB out of the XLR outs of the MixPre. The 1/8" is only +6dB. I think that's right...my numbers might be slightly off but I'm pretty sure the XLR out is 10dB hotter than the tape out.
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there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
See this post in the other thread: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=155475.msg2014746#msg2014746
You are sending IIRC +16dB out of the XLR outs of the MixPre. The 1/8" is only +6dB. I think that's right...my numbers might be slightly off but I'm pretty sure the XLR out is 10dB hotter than the tape out.
grrr...
i ran the mixpre into Tascam DR-100 tonight and the entire recording is distorted. I've used the XLR outputs on the mixpre for FR-2LE and the DR-100 and have not had this issue. WTF!? I was going to run the 1/8" into the R-26 tonight, but it doesn't have a Omni+plugin setting... i wanted to run the omni's, so i used the DR-100 for the KM184 > Mixpre...
F@$%!!
So, it's not the R-26.. it's the Mixpre.
and WHY does the R-26 not have a Omni+Plugin+XY setting??? It has every other combination for multitrack recording.
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I should probably start a new thread for this, but here is sample... can anyone say from the recording what's going on with this? you can send a pm if you want.
Thanks.
https://soundcloud.com/user203526/jeanne-jolly-live-sample
edit) come to think of it... I don't think I've ran the Mixpre XLR > DR-100, only the FR-2LE (XLR to TRS). I've used the Mixpre 3.5mm > DR-100 3.5mm.
So the Mixpre line out does not work with the R-26 or DR-100. This sucks, last night was a good show.
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I should probably start a new thread for this, but here is sample... can anyone say from the recording what's going on with this?
Have you tried a pad (signal reduction) cable?
It's distorting at a specific loudness...almost like it's overloading the line-in on your recorder...
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I should probably start a new thread for this, but here is sample... can anyone say from the recording what's going on with this?
Have you tried a pad (signal reduction) cable?
It's distorting at a specific loudness...almost like it's overloading the line-in on your recorder...
I think I will need to use pads for the mixpre > R-26 XLR input... it worked ok with the Fostex FR-2LE, but not R-26 and DR-100.
Also, Roland said there is not a setting for XY + Omni + Plugin... perhaps a firmware update?
I would use the internal omni's more with external cardioid's and possibly sound board mix.
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I think I will need to use pads for the mixpre > R-26 XLR input...
You need to attenuate the 1/8" tape out of the Mixpre going in to the XLR input of the R-26?
If so, something is definitely not right.
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there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
maybe it's because the R-26 can't handle a hot input levels for some unknown reasons.
according to Avisoft Bioacoustics comparsion of various recorders http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm), an Input Clipping Level of the R-26 via XLR ANALOG IN is 0.25 mV.
And it's pretty low as I can understand.
For example, the Input Clipping Level of SoundDevices 722 is 3.8mV, and Fostex FR-2LE is 4.3mV.
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I think I will need to use pads for the mixpre > R-26 XLR input...
You need to attenuate the 1/8" tape out of the Mixpre going in to the XLR input of the R-26?
If so, something is definitely not right.
No the 1/8" output is ok. The Mixpre (XLR output) > R-26 (XLR input) probably needs a pad.
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and according to this:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-188991.html
To get the max clipping level on the DR-100, you have to set it to "GAIN HIGH"...
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there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
maybe it's because the R-26 can't handle a hot input levels for some unknown reasons.
according to Avisoft Bioacoustics comparsion of various recorders http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm), an Input Clipping Level of the R-26 via XLR ANALOG IN is 0.25 mV.
And it's pretty low as I can understand.
For example, the Input Clipping Level of SoundDevices 722 is 3.8mV, and Fostex FR-2LE is 4.3mV.
^ This.
The DR-100, R-26 etc. are probably more 'pro-sumer' devices and use the 1/8" input from external preamps.
The Fostex FR-2LE is more of a true 'little-brother/relative' of the FR2 and is designed to handle the hot signals from external preamps. I liked the FR-2LE... just a little bulky for a 2 channel recorder. Good features.
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and according to this:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-188991.html
To get the max clipping level on the DR-100, you have to set it to "GAIN HIGH"...
The mixpre levels are already HOT at the lowest settings (for rock concerts or most concerts)... The DR-100 was set to mid-gain.
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there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
maybe it's because the R-26 can't handle a hot input levels for some unknown reasons.
according to Avisoft Bioacoustics comparsion of various recorders http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm), an Input Clipping Level of the R-26 via XLR ANALOG IN is 0.25 mV.
And it's pretty low as I can understand.
For example, the Input Clipping Level of SoundDevices 722 is 3.8mV, and Fostex FR-2LE is 4.3mV.
^ This.
The DR-100, R-26 etc. are probably more 'pro-sumer' devices and use the 1/8" input from external preamps.
The Fostex FR-2LE is more of a true 'little-brother/relative' of the FR2 and is designed to handle the hot signals from external preamps. I liked the FR-2LE... just a little bulky for a 2 channel recorder. Good features.
all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.
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all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.
I really don't see what the problem is. Considering the R-26 is adding 62dB at the maximum available gain setting for the XLR input and that chart is saying it the input will clip if you feed it 70dB...I mean that's pretty irrelevant to what we do as concert tapers. If you are recording nature sounds or something then maybe it has an effect...but then there are much better preamps for that sort of work anyway.
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all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.
I really don't see what the problem is. Considering the R-26 is adding 62dB at the maximum available gain setting for the XLR input and that chart is saying it the input will clip if you feed it 70dB...I mean that's pretty irrelevant to what we do as concert tapers. If you are recording nature sounds or something then maybe it has an effect...but then there are much better preamps for that sort of work anyway.
I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either. You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44. The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.
It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
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Plus, the R26 manual says that the maximum input level on the XLRs is "+24 dBu (SENS = +4 dBu)". That's hotter than the FR2-LE...
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I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either. You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44. The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.
It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
Agreed on all accounts!
I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.
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I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either. You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44. The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.
It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
Agreed on all accounts!
I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.
I also grabbed Naiant attenuators for hot SBDs/"Just in case"
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I will send an e-mail to Shure.
I ran some tests and you can hear the signal distorting as soon as the mixpre hits the first red light (lowest setting possible), but not with the tape out.
Until this is resolved, I will try the phantom power/internal preamps on the R-26.
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I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.
I also grabbed Naiant attenuators for hot SBDs/"Just in case"
At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too. Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...
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At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too. Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...
True. Although as it's been stated, the +4dBu is nominal. This translates (according to Roland's docs) to -7.5dBu maximum.
The Mixpre sends (at minimum) +6dB via the tape out and +16dB via the XLR out. That is why the XLR out of the Mixpre overloads the 1/8" input of the R-26. If Chimney Top would just use the 1/8" out of the Mixpre then there are 1.5dB worth of headroom.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
i'm not comparing the R-26 and SD744 recorders as such.
i'm comparing Input Clipping Level of 2 recorders with the XLR inputs, so if the price in this comparing is important for you, we can compare the R-26 with the Olympus LS-100. They are in the same price league as I know, and the Input Clipping Level of the R-26 is still very very low comparing it to LS-100. 0.25mV (R-26) vs 3.1mV (LS-100). And it's still very low comparing it to more cheap handheld recorders without the XLR inputs, like Olympus LS10 or Sony PCM m10. As I can understand this means that in the same situation with the same settings on both devices, recorder with a lower Input Clipping Level, like the R-26 can be distorted much easier than the recorder with a higher Input Clipping Level, like the Olympus LS-100. Thereby in situations when you need something like a pad to feed recorder like a R-26 without clipping and distortion, it can be done without any pads with recorder like Olympus LS-100. Maybe it's the reason why Chimney Top noticed distortion when he connected Mixpre line-out to the R-26 line-in. I heard about similar distortion problem when connecting Mixpre line-out to the line-in of a Zoom H4n. And H4N has a clipping and distortion problem on the lowest possible input settings while the Mixpre not even hit limiters.
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At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too. Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...
True. Although as it's been stated, the +4dBu is nominal. This translates (according to Roland's docs) to -7.5dBu maximum.
The Mixpre sends (at minimum) +6dB via the tape out and +16dB via the XLR out. That is why the XLR out of the Mixpre overloads the 1/8" input of the R-26. If Chimney Top would just use the 1/8" out of the Mixpre then there are 1.5dB worth of headroom.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not running Mixpre XLR to R-26 1/8", I'm running Mixpre XLR to R-26 XLR. However, the Mixpre 1/8" (Tape out) > R-26 1/8" (Plug in/low setting) is ok.
Here is the response from Shure:
"The FP24 output is line level - not mic level. The devices that are distorting need a mic level signal, not line level."
OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.
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It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
I heard about similar distortion problem when connecting Mixpre line-out to the line-in of a Zoom H4n. And H4N has a clipping and distortion problem on the lowest possible input settings while the Mixpre not even hit limiters.
huh... I sold the FR-2LE so I can't run tests (since XLR/TRS worked with that recorder) to see if there is an issue with the Mixpre.
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OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.
You should probably ask Roland directly...seems like quirk w/ the R-26's XLR inputs. They'll take a week to reply though :-P
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OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.
You should probably ask Roland directly...seems like quirk w/ the R-26's XLR inputs. They'll take a week to reply though :-P
that's what I thought, so I tried the DR-100 XLR and it distorted as well...
However, the R-26 has a line level setting... I'll send Roland another e-mail.
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OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.
You should probably ask Roland directly...seems like quirk w/ the R-26's XLR inputs. They'll take a week to reply though :-P
that's what I thought, so I tried the DR-100 XLR and it distorted as well...
However, the R-26 has a line level setting... I'll send Roland another e-mail.
When using the XLR's on the Tascam DR100MKII, you have a line/mic option. Are you using the Line In option?
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OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.
You should probably ask Roland directly...seems like quirk w/ the R-26's XLR inputs. They'll take a week to reply though :-P
that's what I thought, so I tried the DR-100 XLR and it distorted as well...
However, the R-26 has a line level setting... I'll send Roland another e-mail.
When using the XLR's on the Tascam DR100MKII, you have a line/mic option. Are you using the Line In option?
It's the DR-100.
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It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
i'm not comparing the R-26 and SD744 recorders as such.
i'm comparing Input Clipping Level of 2 recorders with the XLR inputs, <snip>
No, you're not comparing the clipping of the 2 recorders, you're comparing the sensitivity and maximum gain. The numbers avisoft report are the ability of the recorder to get to 0dbFS using it's maximum gain. As such, the avisoft numbers are really the sensitivity of the recorder, and they have nothing to do with clipping. And for the numbers they report, lower is better, not worse. The 722 requires you to have a signal of at least -46dbu (3.8mv) in amplitude in order to record up to the maximum of 0dbFS, with the R26, you can record a signal as low as -70dbu (0.25mv) and still get the recorder to hit 0dbFS -- this is a good thing, not a bad thing.
The 722 has a max input before clipping of +26dbu and the R26 has a max input before clipping of +24dbu. The Olympus LS10 manual is a little unclear, but it looks like it has a max input of -6dbu. So the R26 can take a max signal that is 32dbu hotter than the LS10, meaning the R26 can take a signal that is over 16Volt rms hotter than the LS10 without clipping. 2 different worlds, on this level, the R26 is pretty much like the 722 and the LS10 is junk.
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It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
i'm not comparing the R-26 and SD744 recorders as such.
i'm comparing Input Clipping Level of 2 recorders with the XLR inputs, <snip>
No, you're not comparing the clipping of the 2 recorders, you're comparing the sensitivity and maximum gain. The numbers avisoft report are the ability of the recorder to get to 0dbFS using it's maximum gain. As such, the avisoft numbers are really the sensitivity of the recorder, and they have nothing to do with clipping. And for the numbers they report, lower is better, not worse. The 722 requires you to have a signal of at least -46dbu (3.8mv) in amplitude in order to record up to the maximum of 0dbFS, with the R26, you can record a signal as low as -70dbu (0.25mv) and still get the recorder to hit 0dbFS -- this is a good thing, not a bad thing.
The 722 has a max input before clipping of +26dbu and the R26 has a max input before clipping of +24dbu. The Olympus LS10 manual is a little unclear, but it looks like it has a max input of -6dbu. So the R26 can take a max signal that is 32dbu hotter than the LS10, meaning the R26 can take a signal that is over 16Volt rms hotter than the LS10 without clipping. 2 different worlds, on this level, the R26 is pretty much like the 722 and the LS10 is junk.
Thanks for your much better explanation than mine :) I knew I wasn't crazy....
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So the R26 can take a max signal that is 32dbu hotter than the LS10, meaning the R26 can take a signal that is over 16Volt rms hotter than the LS10 without clipping. 2 different worlds, on this level, the R26 is pretty much like the 722 and the LS10 is junk.
Todd: can you please explain avisoft's dynamic range number? If the R-26 can take that large a difference, why isn't the dynamic range bigger?
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So the R26 can take a max signal that is 32dbu hotter than the LS10, meaning the R26 can take a signal that is over 16Volt rms hotter than the LS10 without clipping. 2 different worlds, on this level, the R26 is pretty much like the 722 and the LS10 is junk.
Todd: can you please explain avisoft's dynamic range number? If the R-26 can take that large a difference, why isn't the dynamic range bigger?
I suspect it is because the avisoft numbers are at max gain, and max gain between different recorders is different.
Say you have 2 recorders that have EIN of -120dbu. One recorder like the R26 can reach 0dbFS given an input as low as -70dbu. So this recorder has a dynamic range of 50db at max gain. The other recorder can on reach 0dbFS with a signal as low as -55dbu, so it has a dynamic range of 65db.
The second recorder on that basis sounds better than the first. But if you need to record a low signal that only reaches -70dbu (say a nature recording), and you want your ultimate recorded product to be at 0dbFS. With the first recorder, you just record the sound at max gain, and you have a recording at 0dbFS, and it has the dynamic range of 50db. With the second recorder, you record the -70dbu signal at max gain, and your recording comes out at -15dbFS, since that recorder doesn't have as much gain. So in post, you boost the recording 15db, to get the recording up to 0dbFS. But in boosting the signal, you just boosted the noise of the recorder too. So you've effectively reduced the dynamic range of that 2nd recorder from 65db to 50db, since you boosted the recorded signal by 15db and by doing so boosted the noise from -120dbu to -105dbu.
Ok, late at night, but I think I got that right. At any rate, the difficulty is that it is difficult to compare across the numbers in the avisoft, since they depend on the recorders max gain, and the max gain varies across recorders.
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Regarding the distortion issues using Mixpre > R-26, I e-mailed Shure and Roland and this is the response:
Shure: The FP-24 is line level out, the recorder needs line level input.
Roland: The R-26 has a maximum input level of +24dbu (setting +4dbu line level)
Yet the signal is still distorted.
Shure:
"Strange indeed. The FP24 is an impedance balanced output. Perhaps the device following the FP24 (Roland R-26) does not react well with an impedance balanced output. Assuming that is the case, I recommend trying a 1:1 transformer between the FP24 and the following device (Roland R-26)."
The Roland R-26 specs say the XLR/TRS inputs are 'balanced/unbalanced'.
Mixpre > Fostex FR-2LE worked ok, the FR-2LE inputs are balanced.
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Is it possible to split one mono input to two different mono channels in order to have them at different levels for safety? Something like the dual mono feature in marantz pmd661 and tascam dr-60d?
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nobody thought about splitting the mono? any ideas?
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nobody thought about splitting the mono? any ideas?
You could split a mono signal and throw a -20dB attenuator in front of one of the two; that would do it. Of course, then you'd only be recording in mono.