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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: OOK on September 20, 2011, 02:51:38 AM
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I have been recording many years and understand that there are many things that go into pulling a good recording. One area I am not supper knowledgeable is on shotgun mics. I know there are tons of them out there.... but what ones tend to come up as the best at pulling good sound... I am looking for something super directional, not overly long, but maintains that musical quality we chase each time we go ot to record. I don't want anything that is going to break the bank. I would be willing to spend up to about 1500.
the only shot guns I have used are the nak300/cp-4 combo.....it has that classic sound.... but I would like something phanton powered.. something new to try...
anyone have some cool experience running guns that they want to share....
Peace OOK
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I would look at AKG 568's. Smallish in size and one piece. I use the CK69 cap with my 460's, but if I did not have that combo I would own the 568's. Most serious tapers, as in non section tapers, are anti shotgun but I believe they are a good tool to have in the bag.
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you may also look at a pair of ck8s with the a60 reducer rings to go with 460s or 480s
I used to own a pair of ck68s which are similar to the ck69s, but only worked with the 460s (just like the mk46 active setup only works with the 460s)
I don't have near as many sources as ts does on LMA, but here are a few:
http://www.archive.org/details/phil2008-07-05.akg451.shotguns
http://www.archive.org/details/thedead2009-05-07.akg468.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/um2008-07-12.451
http://www.archive.org/details/um2008-07-05.451
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We borrowed an AT815ST for phish Toyota Park '09 show and it worked acceptably well for a mid priced mic:
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/2ad74ca7e8a67cfe/
The thing I liked about it is it can run as a mid-side shotgun, we took it discreet and mixed it in post.
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The AKG CK8's, CK68's and CK69's are all great caps but you still need the bodies, I don't think OOK has any 460/480 bodies. The 568 EB's can be found for around 400 a pair, sometimes less, if patient. They would be a great combo with his SD702 and also very compact, even for a shotgun rig. :P
Here's a single with clip and windscreen:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AKG-C-568-EB-Microphone-Tested-MINT-/170696991520?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27be556320
I sold a pair, guns only, for another taper about 3-4 years ago for 400. They were quite worn but functioned perfectly.
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Thanks for the feedback..... I have seen and heard the AKG568's. They are very nice indeed. Price seems very good. I did some listening on the archivce and what really struck me were the AT897's from some of the further shows this summer. I was blown away by the sound for a shotgun mic. I have also heard the nuemann km81's but rarely do I see those for less than what I am willing to spend... hmmmm will continue to do more research....
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I've currently got a single Sennheiser ME66 short shotgun to occasionally use a mid mic for mid-side recordings.
Any opinions on AKG's CK98 shotgun capsules? Been wondering if it would be worth picking one up to go with my CK94.
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if you are happy with the sound of the 300 bodies, then by all means check out the ck98
I've currently got a single Sennheiser ME66 short shotgun to occasionally use a mid mic for mid-side recordings.
Any opinions on AKG's CK98 shotgun capsules? Been wondering if it would be worth picking one up to go with my CK94.
ts brought up a great point... I didn't realize that the 568s could be had for so little money
the 568s essentially are fixed capsule versions of the 460/ck68(9)s
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I have always dug the 568's :)
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Shotguns are widely misunderstood. Or maybe I should say, some people go into wishful thinking or denial mode around shotguns--wanting them to be what they aren't, and to do what no microphone can do.
Shotguns have high directivity only at high frequencies, and their directivity at high frequencies tends to be irregular. If you think about how two-microphone stereo is supposed to work, you'll realize that both of those characteristics (inequality of low/mid vs. high-frequency directivity, irregular high-frequency directivity) are the opposite of what the application calls for.
At low and mid frequencies they are ordinary directional microphones--most often supercardioids. Or to put that another way, they have no greater directional effect than supercardioids, and no better ability to function at greater distances from the direct sound sources--except that at high frequencies, the response from the sides of the mike is partially shaded off (in a more or less irregular fashion) by the slotted interference tube that's mounted in front of the capsule.
As a result of the basic way that they work, the diffuse-field response of shotgun microphones at high frequencies tends to be severely rolled off. In the below-$1000 price category many shotgun microphones have peaky high-frequency response to compensate for this rolloff, but it's a bad compromise--the peakiness still shows up in the frontal response, and is even magnified at some pickup angles by the interference tube. So they can end up being both spitty-sounding and dull at the same time.
Shotguns are designed for pickup of speech in a somewhat reverberant environment. Their narrowed high-frequency pattern helps the consonants of spoken words not to get lost in the mud. They are also used for some types of sound effects recording. But the miking distances in those applications are far less than the typical distances when you're recording a live concert from out in the audience. I don't know of any professional recording engineer who would ever choose to use a pair of shotgun microphones, no matter how good or how expensive, in any arrangement whatsoever, for stereo music recording. And no manufacturer of professional quality shotgun microphones (that I'm aware of) recommends such usage, either.
The best, multi-thousand dollar shotguns such as the Schoeps or the Sanken can be used as the mid microphone for mid/side pickup--or as a "budget" recommendation, without intending any irony, I'd suggest the Neumann KMR 81 and a good figure-8 for mid/side. Otherwise, for any given budget level, you will pretty much always get better sound by investing in the best-available pair of supercardioid microphones for stereo music recording rather than a pair of shotguns.
--best regards
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Hence why I LOVE Hypers :)
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Shotguns are widely misunderstood. Or maybe I should say, some people go into wishful thinking or denial mode around shotguns--wanting them to be what they aren't, and to do what no microphone can do.
Shotguns have high directivity only at high frequencies, and their directivity at high frequencies tends to be irregular. If you think about how two-microphone stereo is supposed to work, you'll realize that both of those characteristics (inequality of low/mid vs. high-frequency directivity, irregular high-frequency directivity) are the opposite of what the application calls for.
At low and mid frequencies they are ordinary directional microphones--most often supercardioids. Or to put that another way, they have no greater directional effect than supercardioids, and no better ability to function at greater distances from the direct sound sources--except that at high frequencies, the response from the sides of the mike is partially shaded off (in a more or less irregular fashion) by the slotted interference tube that's mounted in front of the capsule.
As a result of the basic way that they work, the diffuse-field response of shotgun microphones at high frequencies tends to be severely rolled off. In the below-$1000 price category many shotgun microphones have peaky high-frequency response to compensate for this rolloff, but it's a bad compromise--the peakiness still shows up in the frontal response, and is even magnified at some pickup angles by the interference tube. So they can end up being both spitty-sounding and dull at the same time.
Shotguns are designed for pickup of speech in a somewhat reverberant environment. Their narrowed high-frequency pattern helps the consonants of spoken words not to get lost in the mud. They are also used for some types of sound effects recording. But the miking distances in those applications are far less than the typical distances when you're recording a live concert from out in the audience. I don't know of any professional recording engineer who would ever choose to use a pair of shotgun microphones, no matter how good or how expensive, in any arrangement whatsoever, for stereo music recording. And no manufacturer of professional quality shotgun microphones (that I'm aware of) recommends such usage, either.
The best, multi-thousand dollar shotguns such as the Schoeps or the Sanken can be used as the mid microphone for mid/side pickup--or as a "budget" recommendation, without intending any irony, I'd suggest the Neumann KMR 81 and a good figure-8 for mid/side. Otherwise, for any given budget level, you will pretty much always get better sound by investing in the best-available pair of supercardioid microphones for stereo music recording rather than a pair of shotguns.
--best regards
I get what your saying, I think... :P but in the end I trust my ears....which again no one hears the same way. I have heard some piss poor shotgun recordings but I have heard some "smokin oh my god" recordings. I know there is so much that goes into the recording other than mic selection..oh so many factors but the reverbant, chatty crowd noise, clapping etc is what I am trying to reduce, not eliminate..... I have MBHO hypers which seem to do well. My Nak cp-4 pull that classic nak shotgun sound... I guess I am aproaching the question is the grass greener with another mic or not...but thanks for the feedback. I have been recording a long time and it never ceases to amaze me how useful this site is and the things I learn even now.
Thinking about it as the pattern becomes more directional as the frequency increases thats why crowd noise such as clapping and reverb is reduced because it is not within the patterns line of sight of the mic, hence it is reduced. Not sure if i explained that right....but that appears to be what I am looking for...
ook
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OOK, given the range of possible recording scenarios, and how often interesting events take place in poor acoustical conditions, situations will occur sooner or later in which nearly any given pair of microphones will deliver a good-sounding result.
Having oddball recording techniques (and the microphones to match) in your kit is a good thing, if you know when to use them and when not to. I have some microphones that I've only used a handful of times in 40 years of recording, but I'm glad I have them. I'm just saying that choosing a pair of shotgun mikes as your "go to" or only pair for stereo recording doesn't make sense for most situations.
Many people get misled by the size and shape of shotgun microphones. They (the microphones, I mean) do have greater directivity than cardioids in the upper midrange and above, but only somewhat--not nearly to the extent that people seem to hope for, and only in part of the frequency range. Inexpensive shotguns (and even many professional shotguns, and long shotguns in general) make you pay for that extra directivity with their highly irregular off-axis response.
Just as a thought experiment, although this actually happened to me a few weeks ago: Let's say you go to a place where a friend will be giving a musical performance, and for whatever reasons, you're forced to record from the back of the room. What type of microphones would you choose?
If your answer was "shotguns, because they would compensate for at least some of the excess distance," then both physics and long (sometimes sad) experience tell me that that answer is wrong. When you're far from the sound source, sound reaches your microphones at more or less random angles of incidence--and that's exactly the situation in which no one who understands how shotgun microphones work would choose to use them, with very few exceptions. If you're in that type of situation often, by all means use directional microphones such as supercardioids--but then use the best ones (in terms of smooth, flat frequency response, including off-axis) that you can afford to own, borrow or rent. It's unfortunately an undemocratic situation, since the top two or three brands of supercardioid sound so much better than everything below them in cost.
Normally I don't argue with people's personal opinions or preferences--but this idea of using shotguns in pairs as main microphones for stereo recording deserves to be criticized. Leave them to the film and video sound people for dialog and effects recording--or if you can afford to buy a $3000 shotgun as an experiment, try it for M/S music recording--but don't expect miracles. Shotguns are microphones, not telescopes.
--best regards
P.S.: Could you please delete your quoteback of my entire, previous long-winded message? On this type of board, everyone can already see everything that everyone else has posted in a thread.
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DSatz -- always good to get your in depth responses which help me understand things much better. I understand what your saying here and it makes sense, especially in terms of unamplified music.
I always wonder though -- does recording loud, PA-driven concerts change things at all? Clearly the direct sound from PAs will be much louder than unamplified music, so does this mean that the sound coming to the mics from a distance is more direct and less coming from random directions, or is it just that the reverberations and echoes are just that much louder than for unamplified music and the result is the same (generally coming from random directions)?
Similarly, I've always wondered about that with omni mics and the choice of which type at a distance. Meaning, for distance omnis you might want ones with a high frequency bump to make up for high frequency attenuation at distance. On the other hand, with amplified music where the sound man might already be bumping up the high frequencies to make up for attenuation losses does it still make sense to use omnis with a high frequency bump, or in those cases are you better with flat response omnis?
Ok, that starts getting into a serious thread jack considering we're talking about shotguns, but still I'm interested.
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I would look at AKG 568's. Smallish in size and one piece.
Agreed and they are fairly inexpensive ...
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Dsatz thanks for your repsonse....Although I have not been recording 40 years....I have been about 13-14 years.... Mostly jamband stuff, blue grass, country style rock, the dead, some low key acoustic stuff but not much. I curently have many options.... My main choice of mics are MBHO648's with a set of LK omnis, wide cards, cards and hyper caps.....from my experience through trial and error, I tend to use omnis outside, onstage or very close...wide cards outside, on stage, very close and in excellent sounding rooms.. Cards outside, mid way in rooms. Hypers outside in low wind conditions, midway to back of the room or those shity sounding rooms that I want to combat as much reflection as possible.... I also have a set of nak cm300 with the cards, omnis and shot gun caps.... I have used the shotguns mid room in crapy sounding rooms with good results. I too believe that having as many options as possible in terms of mics is a good idea... still kickin myself I sold my Rode NT2000 LD's.. my orignal post was more a mission on what people seem to like. I like my nak shotguns... but just wondering what others are using.... as I may want something a little more modern. But I know modern doesn't always mean better.....just modern.
peace ook
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From a recording engineers standpoint, dsatz is 100% right about shotgun microphones and in his posts he clearly explains why. They are for movie dialog and that's it. But how many times have we been criticized by professionals for spending the amount of money we do on equipment for use in uncontrolled enviroments. I've been blasted more than once. "Your'e doing what with DPA's Neumann's, Schoeps. What are you nuts!" So how crazy can it be to use 2 shotguns in a stereo pair or one shotgun as a center blend. Sure they don't produce the desried results for a stereo recording, but they sure do cut out a good portion of things we don't want in our recordings, such as crowd noise.
I for one would not want to be stuck in the back of Madison Square Garden with cards or even hypercards. In our little hobby of attempting to recreate what we hear live, more often than not at insane distances from the sound source, I believe shotguns do have a place. Hell, I've even used them FOB with satisfying results. They were not my first choice, but luckily I had them as one of my card caps was dead that night. :P
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I have heard some SMOKIN mk41 sources from MSG, so hypers are better than one may think :)
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I have heard some SMOKIN mk41 sources from MSG, so hypers are better than one may think :)
here is a comp of hyper>shotguns from the Pepsi Center in Denver
Chuck and I were side by side running thru V3s... he was running 480s and I was running 460s
I like both sources, but it gives you some idea how much crowd noise is rejected on my source running guns
http://www.archive.org/details/thedead2009-05-07.akg468.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/TheDead2009-05-07.C-483
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The Guns are more narrow...they should be....but not sure which sounds better...