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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: ridemyllama on January 03, 2012, 01:41:39 PM
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I have been using schoeps MK4 for both stealth recording and mike stand recording. I love the schoeps for stealth recording but am unhappy with the results of the schoeps FOB recording on a stand. I'm thinking of buying shotguns for stand recording in places like the Fillmore etc. I've been thinking of AT or Rode, not too expensive. I've researching for a recommendation but just get confused. I'd love to hear from anyone that will recommend a shotgun that might meet my needs.
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what is it that you don't like about your current recordings? E.g. Is it that you like the recordings you make outdoors but not indoors, or you don't like the tonal balance or texture? Have you identified any open-taping recordings that you really liked and can point to as an example for a comparison?
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My schoeps MK4 are great for stealth recordings closer to the stage but they just have too much audience noise farther back on a stand. My friends Nak 300's and another friends AT943 do a much better job farther away then the schoeps so I'm looking for shotguns people like for that type of recording.
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On a hunch, I assume your issue with your MK4 recordings is a lack of directivity and general 'boominess' rather than tonal balance or another issue. If so, that's a common issue for tapers who generally run lowpro or stack tape and there are plenty of tapers who will always run FOB even when an OTS is provided.
Before considering shotguns...
1) Try experimenting with the microphone configuration using your MK4's. How are you currently running these and have you experimented with capsule spacing and orientation? If you are running a kwon bar style mount, I can tell you as convenient as they are, they are not perfect for every situation. Personally, I have been enjoying taping without them and orienting them with a reduced mutual angle (60-70 degrees). From much personal experience, I've found that the smaller angle will often produce much more favorable recordings than the typical 90 or 110 degrees with DIN/DINa (leaving out NOS) or ORTF respectively. Changing the mutual angle will also affect proximity effect and tonal balance, so you do need to use some discretion, but in general reducing the mutual angle can really help in a concert recording situation.
2) If you've experimented with capsule separate and mutual angle, have you tried the more directional MK41 capsule from Schoeps? As far as hypercardioid microphones go, the MK41 is exceptional! It has excellent LF response for a highly directional capsule and there are certainly a few folks around here who will say it is their favorite capsule. If you are considering adding gear to your arsenal I would check out a pair of MK41's long, long before I considered shotguns of any kind.
3) Can you give us a little more detail on your opinions of the MK4 run OTS? There are 1000s of really great tapes out there made with Schoeps MK4/4v/5 capsules from the OTS. Maybe not the choice for very large arena venues, but certainly no slouch, especially in your mid-size club setting.
4) Consider running FOB 100%! :) I've known a fair number of tapers would perfer to run up-front in-hat rather than from the OTS any day of the week.
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Running FOB on a stand... are you running "head high"? If so, there is a lot to be gained by getting up over people's heads. Sound intensity is a "distance squared" thing... If you are 1' above people talking, and you can move to 4' above people talking the chatter doesn't just reduce by a 4x, it's 16x! Then instead of one guy yelling clearly it starts to become a dull roar, which is much less distracting.
And if you have to look UP to see the stacks, point your mics that way? Tapers always seem to think mics need to be in the horizontal plane, but having them point upward 30 degrees is not ridiculous and helps put the crowd in that null of the polar pattern.
I've got MK4's and AKG guns... I've owned Senn guns and Nak guns... and I would find a way to make the MK4's work before I switched to guns.
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I run my schoeps in the hat for stealth shows and OTS for taper friendly bands. I have the OTS 8'-10' high. It could be that a more radical change on capsule spacing and orientation could help. I will also check out the MK41's too.
As far as what I don't like about the MK4's: for example at the Fillmore in the taper section I get too much audience chatter and tonal sound is subpar. I run the stand as high as the Fillmore allows.
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What pattern are you currently running when using a stand? Pointed at stacks? ORTF? DIN? DINA?
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ridemy, is your concept of shotgun microphones that they're like regular microphones but with a considerably narrower directional pattern than cardioids? A lot of people seem to think that, but it's a half-truth at best.
Shotguns generally are only maybe about 15-20% "more directional" than cardioids for about 3/4 of the frequency range; as far as low and mid frequencies are concerned, you could record from about 15-20% farther away and still get clarity like you'd get with cardioids at 15-20% closer range. But it's not a 50% or even a 25% improvement in terms of the "distance factor" of the pattern. And yeah, somewhere up around a few kHz their response starts to lessen at certain angles in the front hemisphere, which gives them a general tendency toward narrowing further if you average out their response at different angles.
But at any particular angle off-axis, their high-frequency response is generally pretty bumpy. It takes an unusually honest spec sheet to show this, but shotguns don't have smooth response characteristics at upper-mid or high frequencies except for sound sources that are directly on axis or fairly nearly so. When professional film and video sound recordists use shotgun mikes, they're always careful to keep whoever is speaking "on mike" at all times, or else the sound quality tends to become dull and spitty. The very best shotguns ($2000 and up) are better at avoiding this, but the whole way that shotguns work means that they should only be used when the direct sound is all coming from a relatively narrow arc in front of the microphone.
The thing is, when you're recording in stereo with a pair of directional microphones, they are usually coincident or closely spaced and are aimed apart at some angle from a forward-facing "center line" between them. Each mike is picking up sound from a wide array of angles and the direct sound is generally NOT arriving on axis or nearly on axis of either microphone (or if it's on-axis for one mike, it's way off-axis for the other one!).
In order for such arrangements to pick up stereo sound in an accurate and listenable way, the microphones really need to have smooth response off-axis as well as on-axis. Your Schoeps MK 4 capsules are prime examples of that--it's a quality that Schoeps particularly excels at, and it's a big part of the reason their mikes are so effective for two-mike stereo recording. But by definition shotguns can't have that response characteristic at high frequencies--and by definition their directional pattern at high frequencies is quite different from their directional pattern at low and mid frequencies. So they fundamentally lack the two most important characteristics for high-quality two-microphone stereo recording in a coincident or closely-spaced setup.
Please try to borrow someone's MK 41 capsules and try them instead. Or maybe even try M/S recording with an MK 41 as your M microphone--depending on your matrixing factors, that's often like having even greater directivity than a coincident pair of supercardioids. As a last resort, try M/S recording with a good-sounding shotgun (Schoeps, Neumann, Sanken) as the M microphone--but don't expect miracles; the difference in available distance factor isn't anywhere near what the comparative lengths of the microphones might imply.
--best regards
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I agree with trying the MK41's. To me, the 41's are one of very few supercard/hypers that I would ever recommend running.
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I agree with trying the MK41's. To me, the 41's are one of very few supercard/hypers that I would ever recommend running.
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Running FOB on a stand... are you running "head high"? If so, there is a lot to be gained by getting up over people's heads. Sound intensity is a "distance squared" thing... If you are 1' above people talking, and you can move to 4' above people talking the chatter doesn't just reduce by a 4x, it's 16x! Then instead of one guy yelling clearly it starts to become a dull roar, which is much less distracting.
I may be mistaken, but I think the quantity you are interested in here is sound pressure, not intensity. Pressure varies with the inverse of the distance (i.e. doubling the distance halves the pressure, a -6 dB difference). Actually, although the intensity drops by the distance squared (doubling the distance quarters the intensity), I think the intensity level difference measured in dB is still -6 (a halving)...
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On a hunch, I assume your issue with your MK4 recordings is a lack of directivity and general 'boominess' rather than tonal balance or another issue. If so, that's a common issue for tapers who generally run lowpro or stack tape and there are plenty of tapers who will always run FOB even when an OTS is provided.
Before considering shotguns...
1) Try experimenting with the microphone configuration using your MK4's. How are you currently running these and have you experimented with capsule spacing and orientation? If you are running a kwon bar style mount, I can tell you as convenient as they are, they are not perfect for every situation. Personally, I have been enjoying taping without them and orienting them with a reduced mutual angle (60-70 degrees). From much personal experience, I've found that the smaller angle will often produce much more favorable recordings than the typical 90 or 110 degrees with DIN/DINa (leaving out NOS) or ORTF respectively. Changing the mutual angle will also affect proximity effect and tonal balance, so you do need to use some discretion, but in general reducing the mutual angle can really help in a concert recording situation.
2) If you've experimented with capsule separate and mutual angle, have you tried the more directional MK41 capsule from Schoeps? As far as hypercardioid microphones go, the MK41 is exceptional! It has excellent LF response for a highly directional capsule and there are certainly a few folks around here who will say it is their favorite capsule. If you are considering adding gear to your arsenal I would check out a pair of MK41's long, long before I considered shotguns of any kind.
3) Can you give us a little more detail on your opinions of the MK4 run OTS? There are 1000s of really great tapes out there made with Schoeps MK4/4v/5 capsules from the OTS. Maybe not the choice for very large arena venues, but certainly no slouch, especially in your mid-size club setting.
4) Consider running FOB 100%! :) I've known a fair number of tapers would perfer to run up-front in-hat rather than from the OTS any day of the week.
To add to this, consider using the EQ on your DAW. The fact that you said the AT943s - a very tinny mic - do "better" than the 4s kind of clued me into the fact that, as hi and lo suggested, you just don't like that boomy quality you get with Schoeps or any wider-angled mic farther back. That can easily be fixed in post, and the recording you have will be much richer and more balanced than an AT 943 (or Nak guns, for that matter).
The middle ground I prefer personally are Schoeps MK41s - they retain excellent tonal balance while cutting down the boominess a tad. I know others agree.
Heck, listen to ZMan's recordings from the 2011 Phish NYE run from the OTS at MSG - made with MK4V cardiods. That's a horrible spot and a very boomy venue - way worse than the Fillmore - and it still sounds pretty good. IMHO, those recordings would be even better if a touch of EQ had been applied. But they sound a heck of a lot better than Nak guns either way.
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Thanks for all the information. A lot to digest. I will think about the MK41 capsules. A little above my available money at this point. I do run the MK4 mostly horizontal OTS. The audience clatter at places like the Fillmore is bad compared to shotguns on numerous occasions. So it's for me to listen beyond the chatter to anything else on my recording. I hate audience chatter.
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OK, I was confused. In the first post you mentioned FOB on a stand... In a later post you are talking about OTS (Official Taper's Section) which at Phish or Furthur is behind the board.
Anyway... guns are frequently a "hit or miss" proposition. Sometimes they pull an awesome tape, and sometimes it's terrible, and I've never been good at predicting it. I know others who feel the same way. Frequently guns will improve the signal/noise ratio (less chatter, more music), but then the "quality" of music is not as sweet (as DSatz points out). Whether it's an overall improvement is up to the individual listener on any given night. The best compromise is probably hypers, and running them something closer to PAS (pointed at stacks), as opposed to outward at 90 degrees.
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OK, I was confused. In the first post you mentioned FOB on a stand... In a later post you are talking about OTS (Official Taper's Section) which at Phish or Furthur is behind the board.
I understand your confusion!
So if the OTS is in front of the board rather than behind the board, would it be appropriate to label it as FOB? I have always assume FOB to me NOT in the official tapers section, which usually means you are running head height to avoid getting shut down.
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Some of the best Dead OTS tapes were a 3 mic mix with Nak guns PAS + CP2 omni (panned center). If I still had my guns, I'd still use them like that in the OTS, but not FOB.
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So if the OTS is in front of the board rather than behind the board, would it be appropriate to label it as FOB? I have always assume FOB to me NOT in the official tapers section, which usually means you are running head height to avoid getting shut down.
I've seen a ton of people label sanctioned taping (even in a large group) FOB if it's in front of the board area are all (even if it's at the board on the front end of the cage). As a term of significant meaning, I think it's torched since it can mean any number of things.... Distance to the sound source and height of caps is much more informative anymore (to me anyway, ymmv).
Thanks for all the information. A lot to digest. I will think about the MK41 capsules. A little above my available money at this point. I do run the MK4 mostly horizontal OTS. The audience clatter at places like the Fillmore is bad compared to shotguns on numerous occasions. So it's for me to listen beyond the chatter to anything else on my recording. I hate audience chatter.
If avoiding audience noise is your top priority (over s/n ratio of the band/sound source) then that changes the approach some. Look for ways to setup that provide natural blocking. Balconys come to mind in that you can use the balcony wall/floor as a buffer against the people on the floor or under the balcony, and prevent noise from a large section behind you in the balcony (depending on setup approach). Sometimes balconies are boomier courtesy of the ceiling reverb, but if audience noise is the issue, that's one example of how I'd cut it. Second, as others have mentioned, orient your caps toward the mid-top half of the stacks so that you have the null spots of the pickup pattern pointing directly at the people behind you. Last, go for a wider spacing and tighter angle to keep those null points from pointing at you and more so toward other people.
Also, most designated open taping locations (the OTS) is in a bum spot, so if you're comfortable with essentially stealthing, that's an option too.
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Hypers will pickup less chatter and more music. But you have to spend some $$ to get High Quality hypers ;)
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Never having used a pump shotgun, I cant give you personal experience. I will tell you that either the 870 or Nova will make you happy. I have several friends that swear by the 870 and a couple that love the Nova. Both have been proven to be very reliable. If you can, get to a store and check them out side by side. That will probably give you the answer you are looking for. Good luck
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Do some reading on akg568 shotguns.... I own schoeps with mk5 and 41 caps, but there are times I like the 568 better..... there's lots of info on the web...
Best,
John