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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: lt-cartman on January 04, 2012, 06:31:40 PM

Title: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: lt-cartman on January 04, 2012, 06:31:40 PM
Hi all toolman here

Just got my Sony m10 and I was wondering the following regarding the plug in mic power that is supplied by the m10

When using the ca9100 Pre amp and the ca14s - when plugging in the mic the m10 asked do I want to use plug in power what's the correct choice when using the Pre amp / mic combo stated above

Thanks.

Toolman
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B) on January 04, 2012, 06:34:17 PM
The preamp supplies the power to the mics. Go Line In to the M10.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Belexes on January 04, 2012, 06:51:05 PM
Use plug in power only if you bypass your pre and run mic-in.  But you have the 9100, so use it.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: bryonsos on January 04, 2012, 07:26:23 PM
The preamp supplies the power to the mics. Go Line In to the M10.

X2
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Drgiggles1 on January 04, 2012, 09:09:37 PM
Use mic in only if doing an all acoustic show or something quiet as nature stuff or what have you. If you record loud rock/blues shows always go line in.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: TimeBandit on January 05, 2012, 10:16:21 AM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.


Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Drgiggles1 on January 05, 2012, 06:50:39 PM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.
I wouldn't turn PIP off. imho that would be defeating the purpose of the extra gain you need at certain times.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: aaronji on January 05, 2012, 07:47:31 PM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.
I wouldn't turn PIP off. imho that would be defeating the purpose of the extra gain you need at certain times.

I would...
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Drgiggles1 on January 05, 2012, 08:14:00 PM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.
I wouldn't turn PIP off. imho that would be defeating the purpose of the extra gain you need at certain times.

I would...
Curious why turn off PIP if plugging into mic port ???
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: aaronji on January 05, 2012, 08:30:50 PM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.
I wouldn't turn PIP off. imho that would be defeating the purpose of the extra gain you need at certain times.

I would...
Curious why turn off PIP if plugging into mic port ???

If you're going mics > preamp > mic-in, then the mics are already powered via the pre.  No need for plug-in power.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: F.O.Bean on January 05, 2012, 11:13:25 PM
you can run mics > preamp > into mic in on very quiet events. But turn the PIP on the recorder OFF.
I wouldn't turn PIP off. imho that would be defeating the purpose of the extra gain you need at certain times.

I would...
Curious why turn off PIP if plugging into mic port ???

If you're going mics > preamp > mic-in, then the mics are already powered via the pre.  No need for plug-in power.

BINGO ;)
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: lt-cartman on January 06, 2012, 03:10:46 AM
Thanks to everyone who replied to the OP

So it's no plugin power for my setup no matter if I use mic in or line in (once the 9100 is in the loop).

Thanks again for your replies

Toolman
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: aaronji on January 06, 2012, 05:07:28 AM
^^^ Yes.  With the 9100 (or a battery box), you don't need plug-in power.  Plug-in power isn't supplied via the line input, so, using line-in, you'll always need external power (i.e. the 9100).  Going mic-in, only use the plug-in power if you are plugging your mics directly into the recorder with no pre or battery box (although it is my understanding that the M10 doesn't really have enough plug-in power voltage to supply your mics well).
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Drgiggles1 on January 06, 2012, 09:49:03 AM
I've had this same question answered by Chris, just couldn't find it till now.
Finally got my ca9100 this week and will be using it for the first time t'row. The way I understand it I should run Line in always with a pre amp. Is this correct or is there situations with the 9100 where I would want to go Mic in. Thanks in advance.  :help:

For quiet shows you can run mic if you need more gain.. Nature recordings and real acoustic performances. For anything else run line in.

My question to you Aaron is and don't take me in the wrong way. How can you get more gain with mic in if PIP is off ?
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: ScoobieKW on January 06, 2012, 12:32:51 PM
I've had this same question answered by Chris, just couldn't find it till now.
Finally got my ca9100 this week and will be using it for the first time t'row. The way I understand it I should run Line in always with a pre amp. Is this correct or is there situations with the 9100 where I would want to go Mic in. Thanks in advance.  :help:

For quiet shows you can run mic if you need more gain.. Nature recordings and real acoustic performances. For anything else run line in.

My question to you Aaron is and don't take me in the wrong way. How can you get more gain with mic in if PIP is off ?

Recorder PIP is low voltage usually below 3v. The CA-14 mics work better with closer to 9V. This is why a battery box is recommended with them. The CA9100 preamp does two things for you. One, it acts as a battery box/power supply for the mics. Two, it adds an amplification stage before your recorder, hence the name preamp. The 9100 adds the gain. The extra power from your preamp/battery box allows the mics to work without distortion at higher SPL (sound pressure levels ie . loud rock shows)

The built in plug in power is designed around small electret mics for recording meetings, voice etc. While your CA-14s will work on straight plug-in power, they won't work to their fullest potential.

And no, using PIP on your recorder won't increase the voltage to the mics that the preamp is providing, they aren't cumulative.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: aaronji on January 06, 2012, 03:46:33 PM
Drgiggles1:  If you re-read Chris' response to you, you'll note that he doesn't say anything about plug-in power.  The gain he is referring to comes from the increased sensitivity of the mic input compared to the line input (I think it is ~ 20 dB or so different on the M10).  Plug-in power itself doesn't provide any gain*.  The additional sources of gain when you run the 9100 into the mic-in are the hi/low mic sens switch, the gain knob on the recorder, and (as ScoobieKW described) the gain from the 9100...Taken together, it's probably more gain than you would ever need recording shows.  I think most people would say to run it line-in, taking gain first from the pre and then the recorder.  If that's not enough, go mic-in, sens low.   From there, you have 20 dB on the 9100 plus the recorder gain...

*Although it may be that some mics have decreased output if they aren't getting enough power.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: Drgiggles1 on January 07, 2012, 03:02:55 PM
Thank you for making me more knowledgeable on the relation with the PIP. I didn't know you can go mic in with PIP off and get 20 dB additionally.  I also did not know that the power of the pre and the sony was not cumulative.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Sony m-10 + ca9100 + ca14 - do i use plug in mic power
Post by: aaronji on January 08, 2012, 02:41:34 PM
^^^  Actually, I think it is more than 20 dB.  I remember reading that number somewhere, but I couldn't find it again searching...

At any rate, a 1 kHz tone, with the M10 gain knob on 4, yielded a ~27.5 dB difference between mic (set to "low" sens) and line.  I guess that could potentially vary at different gain knob settings or frequencies, but is probably a decent estimate...