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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: deadheadcorey on March 29, 2012, 02:37:37 AM
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i want to get either the r44 in the yard sale or get the bsc2... if its your choice what you go for??
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If your Avantones haven't had the busman mod, I'd say have him upgrade them (under $200), and get the R44.
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R44 hands down. It will create opportunities, 4 mic mixes, SBD + mic matrices, direct mic comps etc. I'll never regret buying mine.
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if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.
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if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.
Agreed. And worst case scenario, pick up a second deck on the cheap and use that if/when you do get board patches or want to run two mics and then sync your sources. I've looked at the 44 many times now and can't justify it with how often I get board access (about 5-6 times a year). I think someone on here once said, always get the better mics first and I'll agree. In your case, however, you might be able to get Busman to upgrade your mics as ScoobieKW mentioned. :)
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if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.
Correct. This is the case for me, and it is well worth it. With SBD patches, your mics matter somewhat less (though having comped my LSD2+SBD vs. Schoeps + SBD in the same spot in the exact same room, uh, they still matter a ton).
The -44 is rock solid and IMHO there is nothing out there except Sound Devices and that caliber of deck that is equal to its feature set and quality. I have made a ridiculous number of gear switches over the past couple years but have never even considered unloading the -44, and I don't intend to until either (a) Roland makes an R-66/R-88 that's the same size, or (b) someone feels like bequeathing me a 788T.
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I do a lot of on the fly matrix's in the small clubs here in Denver. Quixotes/cervantes/other side... but I also wanted to go actives. I don't think busman can make my avantone actives... r44 is tempting at this point
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In that case, definitely get the R44. The Avantones will work for a while, your recordings are good now. Actives are convienent, but won't give you the sound advantage of being able to matrix in post. Make mics the next purchase.
As far as modding the CK-1s, it doesn't hurt to ask Chris about your options. I have the CK-1s with the Busman mod, a friend has stock Avantones (and yes I know we should do a comparison) when I spoke to Chris he gave two options. 1) mod the current bodies, 2)New bodies using existing caps. Both were very affordable.
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if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.
Even if you don't get a SBD, you can try for snake channels for onstage. I've been pleasantly surprised at how many soundmen will let you use their empty ones. In many situations, I actually prefer on stage + aud.
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In the venues you record at, do you like SBD or matrix recordings better than what you get from your mics? If so, buy the R44. If not, by all means go with the mics.
For me, it's a rare SBD recording that I think sounds better than a good aud, so I could care less about getting a patch. I've been offered many times and I say thanks but I'm good. So if it was me and I was faced with your decision, it would be a no-brainer for me to go with the mics.
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Corey,
I don't think I'd jump towards the busman actives (or any actives) given the taping I think you do. Actives are great if you want to do discreet, low-profile taping. Say stealth or discreet FOB taping when you aren't allowed/preferred to be there.
If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics. If you then use the actives to get into places in the venue to tape where you otherwise wouldn't, then the better sound in those areas will make up for the lesser mics. In your case though, I haven't known you to be doing a lot of discreet FOB taping or stealthing. For the bands you tape, and where you mainly tape (quixotes, cervantes, etc), you could just run far FOB if you wanted whether or not you had full bodied mics -- getting actives just doesn't seem to buy you much.
If you want to upgrade the sound from your mics, I might suggest getting something like AKGs (or get the Avantones busman modded, or just get full bodied Busmans and use the rest of the money elsewhere in your rig). For the AKGs, there is a set of 460/ck61/ck63's in the yardsale for $1000, including an active cable and a set of mic cables you don't need. If you can get the seller to skip those unwanted cables and sell you the mics and caps for $900, you could then sell your Avantones for $200 or so. Which seems to be about the same budget as the R44 -- I think that would give you a big step up on the mic side.
Or if you want to make doing 4ch easier, and you seem to be doing a lot, the R44 is a great choice. Normally my advice is to put more into you mics, not the rest of the gear chain. But you've been doing a lot of 4ch matrices and with the chatty CO crowds, esp in quixotes/cervantes, etc, the 4ch matrix using your Avantones is probably a very good bet.
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Corey,
I don't think I'd jump towards the busman actives (or any actives) given the taping I think you do. Actives are great if you want to do discreet, low-profile taping. Say stealth or discreet FOB taping when you aren't allowed/preferred to be there.
If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics. If you then use the actives to get into places in the venue to tape where you otherwise wouldn't, then the better sound in those areas will make up for the lesser mics. In your case though, I haven't known you to be doing a lot of discreet FOB taping or stealthing. For the bands you tape, and where you mainly tape (quixotes, cervantes, etc), you could just run far FOB if you wanted whether or not you had full bodied mics -- getting actives just doesn't seem to buy you much.
If you want to upgrade the sound from your mics, I might suggest getting something like AKGs (or get the Avantones busman modded, or just get full bodied Busmans and use the rest of the money elsewhere in your rig). For the AKGs, there is a set of 460/ck61/ck63's in the yardsale for $1000, including an active cable and a set of mic cables you don't need. If you can get the seller to skip those unwanted cables and sell you the mics and caps for $900, you could then sell your Avantones for $200 or so. Which seems to be about the same budget as the R44 -- I think that would give you a big step up on the mic side.
Or if you want to make doing 4ch easier, and you seem to be doing a lot, the R44 is a great choice. Normally my advice is to put more into you mics, not the rest of the gear chain. But you've been doing a lot of 4ch matrices and with the chatty CO crowds, esp in quixotes/cervantes, etc, the 4ch matrix using your Avantones is probably a very good bet.
Very sound advice and a not-often-made point that runs contra to what seems to be a lot of the CW around here that there is something magical about "lowpro" mics or actives. There are good things about them, but it depends what you do.
I'm usually the only taper where I go, so whether I am running LD mics or active Schoeps, I am pretty "low profile" (esp because I am usually right at the SBD and not that often in actual sight lines). I primarily like the active options because they're lighter weight and smaller for transport (at least, if the bodies aren't in the chain at all) and (more importantly to me) are less heavy to run from a balcony. And of course, the occasional stealth job. But really, I could do without, and if cost were a high factor in my decision, I definitely would.
Now, if you tape frequently on huge trees with tons of mics on them, then having some nice little actives is a big plus because you're not in other tapers' way as much and less in the audience's sight lines. But not everybody does that.
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The other thing is that he has Avantone CK-1 mics. Chris recently quoted me $175 to mod CK-1s, or $250 for BSC1 bodies to use with the CK-1 caps. Much cheaper than 600 for a pair of BSC2 used.
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If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics
I have to agree and, to take it a step further, think that people tend to overvalue the convenience of actives while assuming their performance is equivalent to standard bodies. I can count on one hand the number of people (on this board) that have legitimately raised this question and , even with Schoeps which arguably does actives the best, I don't think it's possible to say they sound exactly the same.
That's not to say that an active solution isn't convenient or will sound worse, but simply that any sonic difference seems to be taken for granted and completely ignored in the decision making process.
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If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics.
For the same money, would you recommend the VM-44 link or classic? I'm in the market.
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Why not both? Just grab a Tascam DR-2D. Its back on sale here supposedly (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154028.0). And even other places its going to at most $130.
Seems to be a proven reliable 4 channel. Not to knock your gear, but it seems silly to spend that much on an R44 just for getting board patches on the same clock as the mics.
That way also you can also try to find a used set of mics and grab a tiny box and still be around your original budget with a new set of mics and 4 channel recorder.
Set of AT 4031: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152459.0
Audix Hypers: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=146910.0
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Don't have much to say on your decision of mics vs. deck, but to further fluff the R-44 I've had mine for over 3-1/2 years now and it's still rock solid. Definitely a piece of gear I won't be getting rid of any time soon if ever. It's also not too common to see one in the YS, if that tells you anything.
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If you get actives, you're probably getting less mic for the money than if you went with traditional full body mics.
For the same money, would you recommend the VM-44 link or classic? I'm in the market.
Me? I'd get the 44-links. I haven't heard much if anything of the classics, and I couldn't really tell you, in regards to hi and lo's point, if the links sound better/worse/different than the classics.
The milabs somewhat are the exception to the rule I put forth, in that the actives don't really have much of a different cost than the full bodied version. But getting at what acidjack was saying -- I tape in a way that makes me really prefer active capsule mics. For a variety of reasons that all get back to wanting actives, not the least of which that money and even recording quality are less important to me than convenience and being able to run my mics where I want.
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Right on. Thanks for all the input. Prob gonna go ahead and get the r44 >:D avantone mics aren't bad, I've pulled some great recordings with them....
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I pretty much tape in small clubs where it is chatty as fuck, so all I've been doing is the on the fly matrix. Would like to have control over 4 chan vs on the fly.
haven't looked into tascam dr-2d...
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if you get a lot of sbd patches (>60% of all of your taping), then the extra 2 channels are nice, but otherwise I'd get mics over just about any other gear.
Yep. Not sure what you are after here. If you like the sound you are getting then get the recorder.
If you want a more quality sound go with the mics.
The mics are the biggest sound quality part of a rig. If you like the sound you are getting
and just want to flavor it, get a different pre.
You have a ua5 and a r-09. Nothing wrong with that noise wise/function wise.
EDIT:
This was my situation before I upgraded mics. I looked at what I wanted.
I ran 460/a60m/ck1 for 3 years and loved the sound. I developed a love for the milabs
more than going 24bit, which I also wanted so I went with mics in a change of sound direction.
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I pretty much tape in small clubs where it is chatty as fuck, so all I've been doing is the on the fly matrix. Would like to have control over 4 chan vs on the fly.
haven't looked into tascam dr-2d...
I hate to take away a potential sale from the YS, but at least look into the Tascam before dropping that much on an R44.
Theres a whole 25 page thread that basically says the Tascam is legit: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131126.0
If you're looking into a 4 channel just to get board patches (which generally sound pretty bad anyway) theres not much reason to pay for all the R44 has.
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I pretty much tape in small clubs where it is chatty as fuck, so all I've been doing is the on the fly matrix. Would like to have control over 4 chan vs on the fly.
haven't looked into tascam dr-2d...
I hate to take away a potential sale from the YS, but at least look into the Tascam before dropping that much on an R44.
Theres a whole 25 page thread that basically says the Tascam is legit: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=131126.0
If you're looking into a 4 channel just to get board patches (which generally sound pretty bad anyway) theres not much reason to pay for all the R44 has.
Respectfully, I don't think it's quite accurate to act as if the DR-2D and the R-44 do exactly the same thing or are really functional equivalents. I haven't run the -2D so if I am mistaken, please correct me. But my understanding is:
- it only has miniplug inputs, not fullsize XLR.
- it does not provide P48 on any channels (I'm pretty sure that's obvious from RTFM). The OP has P48 mics which will require him to use an outboard pre (maybe not a big hurdle).
- while it does do four channel, doesn't this mean using the "mic" input on one and the "line in" on the other? Meaning you'd I guess have to go mics>some kind of phantom supply>miniplug>line in + SBD>mic in>attenuator>mic in? Or the reverse?
- It does not feature adjustable input gain in the same way the R-44 does, where you can, for example, drop the input gain all the way down using a simple click wheel, rather than an outboard attenuator.
I acknowledge that the DR-2D is a possible solution - and a cheaper solution - but again if I was willing to spend what that one in the YS costs (the OP is) and my *main* goal was to have a better deck to control SBD+AUD recordings, I would rather have the -44 than jump through the extra hoops of the DR-2D.
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You've basically got it right, AJ. Though since Corey already has the UA-5, he could probably run mics>UA5>DR2d(line in) + SBD>attenuators>DR2d(mic in).
You could get the DR2d + a SD card for about $125. If say the budget is $750, and you could get $200 for selling the Avantones, that leaves $825 to invest in a set of mics. So Corey could get a 4ch recorder to meet his needs for 4ch SBD+mic mixes, and significantly upgrade his mics.
Which definitely makes it an option to consider. I had an R44, sold it and got a 680, sold that and downgraded to a DR2d.
I've done a bunch of 4ch mixes over the years, but really had gotten to the point that I wasn't getting much in the way of SBD patches, and wasn't doing much in the way of 4mic mixes. I really don't regret at all selling the 680, and generally am happy enough with the DR2d, but I do sometimes miss the R44. Corey should just buy the R44 so I stop thinking about picking it up myself. :P
You're right though that the DR2d and R44 aren't really the same thing, even if both do 4ch. The R44 makes doing 4ch much easier, and it is much, much more robust. Still, if you're willing to deal with 1/8" connections that can be spotty, putting together an XLR>attenuator>1/8" cable (or whatever), and don't mind the 2ch at once metering and limited gain adjustments, you can use the DR2d to make 4ch recordings and have more money available to put towards mics (which is what I did).
Some more caveats on the DR2d: if you use it as above for mic+SBD recording (which is probably you're best bet), you will most likely need some kind of attenutors on the board feed, and you may need attenuators on your UA5>line feed but probably not. You can only meter the levels on 2ch at once on the DR2d, so you need to toggle back and forth between line and mic for your metering. The line level effectively can't be adjusted (can only adjust before recording, and has limited range anyway due to potential overload issues). So running mics>UA5>line-in is the best bet, and then you can adjust levels on the UA5 and just leave the DR2d set. The board-feed into the mic input can be adjusted on the DR2d, though potential overload issues can be a problem, so you might want not just attenuators, but adjustable attenuators -- eg, -10, -25, -40 or whatever. You won't be able to run a 4mic recording with the DR2d with this equipment set, since you'd only have phantom power for 2ch from the UA5. If you want to start doing 4mic recordings, you'd need to pick up an 2nd mic preamp.
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You're right though that the DR2d and R44 aren't really the same thing, even if both do 4ch. The R44 makes doing 4ch much easier, and it is much, much more robust. Still, if you're willing to deal with 1/8" connections that can be spotty, putting together an XLR>attenuator>1/8" cable (or whatever), and don't mind the 2ch at once metering and limited gain adjustments, you can use the DR2d to make 4ch recordings and have more money available to put towards mics (which is what I did).
Cool - I hoped I was not off base with my comments. If I only ran SBD occasionally, I think that would make the -2D much more attractive given the large difference in price. That said, I'm glad I am correct that I'm getting something for my money sticking with the -44 :)
I find that the SBD feed is always the more iffy and problematic component of a recording, in terms of how wildly the levels can vary, plus the presence of problems like weird DI buzz, interference, poor balance, etc. One thing I like about the -44 is that it makes it very easy to drop the incoming gain and to monitor that signal easily.
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I say go with the BSC2's ;) Plus theyre actives and take up less space all around vs. getting your mics modded. Id def say go with mics. Not to mention IMO theyre the best deal out there right now ;)
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R44 don't come for sale often, thinkin I'm gonna do it. I do more smaller club shows and it would be nice to finally have control over 4 actual channels instead of a "on the fly" 2 channel matrix...
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If you record in chatty ass bars like I sometimes do, you NEED a quality hyper capsule. Thats why I suggested going the BSC2 route ;)
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Bean, he has the hypers with his Avantones, the BSC series are an evolution in the Avantone CK-1 mics. As far as I know, same capules. While nice, he can get most of the way there by upgrading the bodies of his CK-1 mics, for a lot less.
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I ran the DR-2d Aud line in and SBD mic in with no attenuation and the recording turned out great!! I did grab a attenuator cable for hot SBD's. Since your not looking to run 4 mics you should put your money into a better set of mics!! A DR-2d would work great for your application Aud + SBD recordings.
You've basically got it right, AJ. Though since Corey already has the UA-5, he could probably run mics>UA5>DR2d(line in) + SBD>attenuators>DR2d(mic in).
You could get the DR2d + a SD card for about $125. If say the budget is $750, and you could get $200 for selling the Avantones, that leaves $825 to invest in a set of mics. So Corey could get a 4ch recorder to meet his needs for 4ch SBD+mic mixes, and significantly upgrade his mics.
Which definitely makes it an option to consider. I had an R44, sold it and got a 680, sold that and downgraded to a DR2d.
I've done a bunch of 4ch mixes over the years, but really had gotten to the point that I wasn't getting much in the way of SBD patches, and wasn't doing much in the way of 4mic mixes. I really don't regret at all selling the 680, and generally am happy enough with the DR2d, but I do sometimes miss the R44. Corey should just buy the R44 so I stop thinking about picking it up myself. :P
You're right though that the DR2d and R44 aren't really the same thing, even if both do 4ch. The R44 makes doing 4ch much easier, and it is much, much more robust. Still, if you're willing to deal with 1/8" connections that can be spotty, putting together an XLR>attenuator>1/8" cable (or whatever), and don't mind the 2ch at once metering and limited gain adjustments, you can use the DR2d to make 4ch recordings and have more money available to put towards mics (which is what I did).
Some more caveats on the DR2d: if you use it as above for mic+SBD recording (which is probably you're best bet), you will most likely need some kind of attenutors on the board feed, and you may need attenuators on your UA5>line feed but probably not. You can only meter the levels on 2ch at once on the DR2d, so you need to toggle back and forth between line and mic for your metering. The line level effectively can't be adjusted (can only adjust before recording, and has limited range anyway due to potential overload issues). So running mics>UA5>line-in is the best bet, and then you can adjust levels on the UA5 and just leave the DR2d set. The board-feed into the mic input can be adjusted on the DR2d, though potential overload issues can be a problem, so you might want not just attenuators, but adjustable attenuators -- eg, -10, -25, -40 or whatever. You won't be able to run a 4mic recording with the DR2d with this equipment set, since you'd only have phantom power for 2ch from the UA5. If you want to start doing 4mic recordings, you'd need to pick up an 2nd mic preamp.
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If you record in chatty ass bars like I sometimes do, you NEED a quality hyper capsule. Thats why I suggested going the BSC2 route ;)
i run my hyper caps all the time onstage... only thing i run period...