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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: thomasdrv on April 17, 2012, 03:01:58 AM
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Microphone recommendation for recording rock concerts onto a Sony PCM M1 ??
Phantom 48 mic or directly with a mini jack are both ok.
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^^^ That's a pretty open ended question! Did you have a budget in mind? Size? Polar pattern? Active?
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Budget around 1000-1500 USD........ ( Used ones on ebay is ok )
Size is not that important. Could be as like the size of AKG C747.
Small DPA mic looks nice too :)
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I'd look on the LMA and see if there is a microphone that stands out to your ears as pleasing. Lots of combinations could be put together for that amount. I'd consider a Naiant Tiny Box V2 as a preamp then you have a lot of choices, some that come to mind:
AKG C460's with a couple of capsule's
Beyer 930's if you like a darker sound
Busman LDC Stereo Microphone BSCS-L or his Active Setup
Audio Technica AT4051's
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I'd look on the LMA and see if there is a microphone that stands out to your ears as pleasing. Lots of combinations could be put together for that amount. I'd consider a Naiant Tiny Box V2 as a preamp then you have a lot of choices, some that come to mind:
AKG C460's with a couple of capsule's
Beyer 930's if you like a darker sound
Busman LDC Stereo Microphone BSCS-L or his Active Setup
Audio Technica AT4051's
Agreed. You cold go with some low voltage mics, a Tinybox and have a battery powered rig that will run for awhile. Even with 48v mics you old get 7 to 10 hours with a Tinybox. Your other option would be to pick up the XLR1, or similar Deneke to power mics.
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What kind of venues?
Do you know from where you will be recording? (Mix position? On stage?)
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open or >:D ?
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What is you're favorite mic HYPNOCRACY ?
I recorded a lot of show in the 80'ies and 90'ies with a Sony WMD6c with Sennheiser MKE 2002. This rig could not handle loud concerts. Some of the jazz concerts i recorded sounds very good :)
Maybe I can increase my budget if I find a superb mic :)
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http://www.tangible-technology.com/power/Phantom_Power_connect.html
I made myself a powersuply like this when I used Milab mics on my Sony WMD6c :)
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What is you're favorite mic HYPNOCRACY ?
I recorded a lot of show in the 80'ies and 90'ies with a Sony WMD6c with Sennheiser MKE 2002. This rig could not handle loud concerts. Some of the jazz concerts i recorded sounds very good :)
Maybe I can increase my budget if I find a superb mic :)
His current favorites involve anything in my toy box ;D
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Microphones Bryon and I have in common in our Took Kit...
AKG 460's Check
Avenson STO-2's Check
ADK TL's CHECK
Nakamichi's CHECK
(http://www.boardofthebored.com/BoB/images/smilies/icon_lmao.gif)
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thomasdrv, As you can see in my sig line, I also use the AKG 460's with CK1 caps for well over 20 years. Of course, you could and should buy other caps (Ck2 for sure). These mics have proven to be versatile and for sure can handle high SPLs like Rock Concerts. As others have mentioned, of course location and distance from stage/stacks have a lot to do with the overall quiality, but to be prepared for anything in advance I like the AKG C460/480 combo. I would say the Beyer 930 mentioned will do the trick as well. and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!
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Microphones Bryon and I have in common in our Took Kit...
AKG 460's Check
Avenson STO-2's Check
ADK TL's CHECK
Nakamichi's CHECK
(http://www.boardofthebored.com/BoB/images/smilies/icon_lmao.gif)
Yeah, we should probably branch out on any future purchases.
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and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!
I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.
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and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!
I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.
Wouldn't the distortion be more a function of the pre amplifier, rather than the microphone sensitivity? I do not use DPAs so do not know the differences between models very well, but for almost any microphone, distortion on the recording can be the outcome of a few things (pre amp, HP/LP filters, recorder quality, mic sensitivity, etc).
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If you up your budget to the $2000-2400 range you could pick up a pair of DPA 4021/4022/4023 which would be a nice set of mics.
Also you could look at Milab VM-44 links in your current price range
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If you up your budget to the $2000-2400 range you could pick up a pair of DPA 4021/4022/4023 which would be a nice set of mics.
Also you could look at Milab VM-44 links in your current price range
Exactly. You mentioned Milabs in another post. If you know the sound and like the sound, then why not jump on another set. I found a dealer yesterday that had links for $868/each. It is my understanding the tolerances are very close, so you can get away with not purchasing a matched pair. It is another $600 fee. Personally, I love DPAs. I am playing with the new modular series right now.
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and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!
I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.
Wouldn't the distortion be more a function of the pre amplifier, rather than the microphone sensitivity? I do not use DPAs so do not know the differences between models very well, but for almost any microphone, distortion on the recording can be the outcome of a few things (pre amp, HP/LP filters, recorder quality, mic sensitivity, etc).
The 4060s are pretty hot (20 mV/Pa) and can definitely overload the inputs on a lot of recorders in a high SPL situation...
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and, of course, those DPAs can handle high SPLs if you can handle the budget!
I would not recommend the 4060's for rock n roll if you're near a loud PA or a loud sub specifically. They will distort. (I found out the hard way.) If you record from further back, it won't be an issue, but being omnidirectional, it may not sound that great.
Wouldn't the distortion be more a function of the pre amplifier, rather than the microphone sensitivity? I do not use DPAs so do not know the differences between models very well, but for almost any microphone, distortion on the recording can be the outcome of a few things (pre amp, HP/LP filters, recorder quality, mic sensitivity, etc).
The 4060s are pretty hot (20 mV/Pa) and can definitely overload the inputs on a lot of recorders in a high SPL situation...
Thanks for the info! What I take from this is that the 4060s output impedance using a "typical" recorders stock pre amps will cause distortion. This is what high quality/custom pre amps are made for. Translation for the OP: if you do not plan on using a high quality pre amp, do not buy DPA 4060s.
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I think H2O is a bargain hunter. :P
Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair. Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal. If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them. Milabs are excellent mics.
Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used. I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800. So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.
For a small stretch above your top end: The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new. These are undoubtedly very nice mics.
The overall trouble is: $1500 a pair for mics, including the option of used, opens up a whole slew of good options for excellent mics. The feedback you'll get will be a reflection of the individual tastes of those responding. At that price, you'll have enough options that you really should do your own listening and make your own judgements.
And then also decide what you want from mics: small total stealth mics; typical condensers you'd only use for open taping, large diaphragm vs small diaphragm condensers (which are different both in the size you'll be lugging around + the size of the stand to support the mics, and SD's and LD's have different typical sounds and different physics of reproducing sound), typical full-bodied mics vs active/remote capsule and cable varieties that are more low profile, smaller to carry around, quicker to set up; mics with only one capsule type vs multiple patterns of a LD mic or multiple capsules to use with a SD mic; if only one capsule type, do you want cardioid, hypercardioid, omni, or even perhaps fig8 or MS set-up mics; etc, etc.
At this point, given really only your budget, there are dozens and dozens of options to consider.
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I think H2O is a bargain hunter. :P
Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair. Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal. If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them. Milabs are excellent mics.
Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used. I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800. So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.
For a small stretch above your top end: The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new. These are undoubtedly very nice mics.
The overall trouble is: $1500 a pair for mics, including the option of used, opens up a whole slew of good options for excellent mics. The feedback you'll get will be a reflection of the individual tastes of those responding. At that price, you'll have enough options that you really should do your own listening and make your own judgements.
And then also decide what you want from mics: small total stealth mics; typical condensers you'd only use for open taping, large diaphragm vs small diaphragm condensers (which are different both in the size you'll be lugging around + the size of the stand to support the mics, and SD's and LD's have different typical sounds and different physics of reproducing sound), typical full-bodied mics vs active/remote capsule and cable varieties that are more low profile, smaller to carry around, quicker to set up; mics with only one capsule type vs multiple patterns of a LD mic or multiple capsules to use with a SD mic; if only one capsule type, do you want cardioid, hypercardioid, omni, or even perhaps fig8 or MS set-up mics; etc, etc.
At this point, given really only your budget, there are dozens and dozens of options to consider.
Depends on the DPAs. The 4028s and 4022s in the YS are in the $2800 range, but 4021s have gone for $1800 and $2000 (mine) recently as well. I know of at least one seller who has a back-from-the-factory set of 4021s he wants to unload...
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Typical price on Milab vm44-links is $2200 for an unmatched pair. Twalker's find of a pair for ~$1750 is a very good deal. If your budget can stretch to that, I'd definitely consider them. Milabs are excellent mics.
I admit, I did sort of fall out of my chair on this one. I even looked this morning. I suspect if you call around to your favorite dealer who you're on good terms with, you can probably get them that cheap, but I haven't seen them advertised that cheap. That said, you should always make nice with your dealer(s) of choice (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=146097.0) and call them if you are going to buy something mcspendy brand new.
Also, it seems like DPAs are going for more than $2400 a pair used. I think there are 2 pairs in the yardsale for $2800. So even used, that might really be stretching the budget.
You'll also notice they haven't moved at those prices... The last set that sold I think was acidjacks at around $2000 and that included some other stuff.
Part of the problem is that DPA put a dent in the (already hurting) used market by doing two things:
1) Switching to a true changable capsule system.
2) Dropping their new price by about $100-200 on a cap/body combo.
For a small stretch above your top end: The new DPA 2011C mics are only $1600 a pair new. These are undoubtedly very nice mics.
For what we do, I totally agree with this. In some ways, they are almost optimal; slightly brighter, slightly tighter pattern, cheap(er), etc.
The rest of your post was solid as well (no need to take up space and quote it).
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Wow, I had no idea used DPAs were going for that cheap. I thought the going rate was more like $2400, and just assumed that was going up based on YS prices.
Kind of makes me want to get a pair, but I guess I'll stick with Milabs.
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Wow, I had no idea used DPAs were going for that cheap. I thought the going rate was more like $2400, and just assumed that was going up based on YS prices.
Kind of makes me want to get a pair, but I guess I'll stick with Milabs.
Still, I love DPAs. But, I heard a couple of recording lately with Milabs and thought they sounded terrific. And, yes, I have been jonsing for a new pair of low profile mics. First, I thought a CMR set was going to be the ticket. But, then I saw the used 4023s. And, then I read some reviews on the 2011s. I am really leaning in that direction personally, especially if DPA starts with remote capsule options. But, then yesterday I found the links at a price I thought was to good to be true after and now I am considering those.
The DPA with the MMA pre makes a nice sounding recording. But, in all fairness, I have only heard them in a jazz setting.
As you can see decisions in this game will drive you crazy. Good luck!
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134 dB for 4060s
144 dB for 4061s
it's powering them with a decent 9v bb that makes the diff....
I believe that mr Rocksuitcase is in error...
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134 dB for 4060s
144 dB for 4061s
it's powering them with a decent 9v bb that makes the diff....
I believe that mr Rocksuitcase is in error...
You're quoting a different figure - rocksuitcase is quoting the output impedance - meaning the signal coming in from the mic tends to be very hot. The issue he is identifying is, I believe, the mic would just straight up overload the inputs it was going into, regardless of levels.
But someone correct me if I'm wrong...
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That is a different figure being quoted, but the idea of output impedance is also not the issue.
The spec'd output impedance of both the 4060 and 4061 is 30-40 ohms according to DPA. The issue is the sensitivity of the mics, or the overall output.
The 4060 is spec'd at 20mv/Pa (a Pascal is 94db SPL), or about -34dbV. The 4061 is spec'd at 6mv/Pa, or about -44dbV.
If you expect a 124db SPL at the show (pretty damn loud), it'd be 30db more than the spec'd 1 Pascal. So the 4060 without any gain from a preamp would put out -4dbV, and the 4061 would put out -14dbV.
A lot of recorders (at least on their line level inputs) and preamps can accept a -4dbV signal, so you wouldn't necessarily overload a preamp or recorder by running 4060s. If you send the 4060s to a preamp in the above case and applied 12 db of gain, you'd have a signal of +8dbV sent to your recorder. Even sent to the line level inputs, that might overload the recorder.
FWIW, I owned and used the 4060s for awhile and never had a problem with overload.
BTW: the sensitivity of the Beyer mc930's and mc950's (I own the 950s) is 40mv/Pa, twice the output level of the 4060s (ie, 6db hotter). Likewise, the AKG 480 with the ck61/62/63 caps also has an output of 40mv/Pa, unless you engage the pad on the mic.
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strong post w/ lots of good math
to add to Todd's post; circa 120spl is the upper limit of audience taping in my experience. I've got a set of caps which trend to 125 and 123 as their max and I havn't yet run the pads for far-field taping nor have I overloaded preamps or adcs that that I've calibrated to overload at the mic's overload point. I have run the pads (which get me up to around 140spl) when I run stage lip or onstage for stuff like brass horns or drums.
Always wear hearing protection. :P
oh, and I <3 this page (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-transferfactor.htm).
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Still, I love DPAs. But, I heard a couple of recording lately with Milabs and thought they sounded terrific. And, yes, I have been jonsing for a new pair of low profile mics. First, I thought a CMR set was going to be the ticket. But, then I saw the used 4023s. And, then I read some reviews on the 2011s. I am really leaning in that direction personally, especially if DPA starts with remote capsule options. But, then yesterday I found the links at a price I thought was to good to be true after and now I am considering those.
The DPA with the MMA pre makes a nice sounding recording. But, in all fairness, I have only heard them in a jazz setting.
As you can see decisions in this game will drive you crazy. Good luck!
You already have top-flight omnis so you know what they will sound like. The problem is the 2011C mics are 3.6". Think about stealthing with that... If it's just low-pro work and not flat out stealthing, then totally buy 2011Cs, and bring them to FloydFest so we can swap caps for a set. :lol:
(but it's a valid Q, the milabs are nice, so are the DPAs as you're aware. I'm not sure one is inherently the clear winner here, it's a "right tool for the right job" question).
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In no way trying to talk anyone out of using Milabs:
The low-pro mic cable DPA makes to go with the new reference series helps --
(http://a1.images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/270123.jpg)
Maybe not getting the 2011c into stealth territory, but makes them a lot nicer for low-profile FOB recording. At $100 each, they are not at all cheap, but between the connector and the cable, that makes the 2011c or 4011c as low profile as it can get.
That said, I did used to stealth with neumann km184s when I had them (with a custom made set of mic cables that were messy as hell, but akin to the DAO4010 cables).
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In no way trying to talk anyone out of using Milabs:
The low-pro mic cable DPA makes to go with the new reference series helps --
(http://a1.images4.thomann.de/pics/prod/270123.jpg)
Maybe not getting the 2011c into stealth territory, but makes them a lot nicer for low-profile FOB recording. At $100 each, they are not at all cheap, but between the connector and the cable, that makes the 2011c or 4011c as low profile as it can get.
That said, I did used to stealth with neumann km184s when I had them (with a custom made set of mic cables that were messy as hell, but akin to the DAO4010 cables).
Wow! Stealthing with 184s. That's definitely an off board topic.
Yep, those new DPA cables would help. I figured a would use a set of stubbies still making the overall length of the 2011c around 4 inches. The issue with the card capsule on the DPA is the twin diaphragm it is much longer. If you were to use the wide card cap they are not as long, but then you are increasing the price drastically.
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You already have top-flight omnis so you know what they will sound like. The problem is the 2011C mics are 3.6". Think about stealthing with that... If it's just low-pro work and not flat out stealthing, then totally buy 2011Cs, and bring them to FloydFest so we can swap caps for a set. :lol:
(but it's a valid Q, the milabs are nice, so are the DPAs as you're aware. I'm not sure one is inherently the clear winner here, it's a "right tool for the right job" question).
Absolutely! Haven't confirmed FloydFest yet. It is definitely a great show this year.
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The 4060 is spec'd at 20mv/Pa (a Pascal is 94db SPL), or about -34dbV. The 4061 is spec'd at 6mv/Pa, or about -44dbV.
If you expect a 124db SPL at the show (pretty damn loud), it'd be 30db more than the spec'd 1 Pascal. So the 4060 without any gain from a preamp would put out -4dbV, and the 4061 would put out -14dbV.
A lot of recorders (at least on their line level inputs) and preamps can accept a -4dbV signal, so you wouldn't necessarily overload a preamp or recorder by running 4060s. If you send the 4060s to a preamp in the above case and applied 12 db of gain, you'd have a signal of +8dbV sent to your recorder. Even sent to the line level inputs, that might overload the recorder.
FWIW, I owned and used the 4060s for awhile and never had a problem with overload.
That's what I was trying to say in my previous post. It can definitely be a problem with a lot of recorders, especially mic-in. As an example, the maximum input level for the mic input on a DR-2d is -16 dBV. A 4060 will crush that...
The only time I ever had a distortion problem with the 4060s was due to this.
oh, and I <3 this page (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-transferfactor.htm).
Me too. Especially that table, which I have referred to many times. The whole site is pretty good, actually. Sometimes the text isn't too clear (at least to me), but there are so many helpful calculators...
Yep, those new DPA cables would help. I figured a would use a set of stubbies still making the overall length of the 2011c around 4 inches. The issue with the card capsule on the DPA is the twin diaphragm it is much longer. If you were to use the wide card cap they are not as long, but then you are increasing the price drastically.
Those cables are pretty cool, but they are quite difficult to unplug...
Really, it is only the 2011 cap that is unwieldy for stealthing. And the 4017. The others, with the compact bodies, are all 2.5" (a little shorter for the 2006).
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Re: DPA 4060s
I should have been a little more specific in my post.
OP says the mics will be used with a Sony M1 (DAT!). I used to use my 4060s with the MPS 6030 battery box (hence no gain) into the line-in of a Sony D100 which is identical to the M1 in most respects. Some of my recordings came out with distorted low end, mostly at festivals. Now, this was several years ago and I don't remember all the details (plus, I'm not a very technical person to begin with), but I was told back then that the distortion characteristics would point to mics and not the input stage of the recorder. I was also told by a FOH engineer that subs at close range were capable of more than 130db. It would have been worth trying an attenuator, but at that point I figured I might as well get 4061's instead and call it a day. I ended up buying MBHOs instead, but that's a different story.
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Re: DPA 4060s
I should have been a little more specific in my post.
OP says the mics will be used with a Sony M1 (DAT!)
When I read the original post I read it as D1, I don't know why.
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I think I will go for some miniature microphones.
There are a lot of alternatives :o
I see a lot of you people use DPA's.
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I think I will go for some miniature microphones.
There are a lot of alternatives :o
I see a lot of you people use DPA's.
The 4060/4061 omnis are a good choice when you're in a small club and can get up close; not such a great choice when you're in an arena/amphitheatre where you're forced to sit further back and not in an ideal seat location. At that point, I'd suggest a pair of cards. A few of us have asked and with cards, you're in a bind because there really isn't much between the CA-14/AT-853 options and the $1.2k-$2.5k club. There is some work being done on running custom cables with a Tinybox with capsules like AKG and Gefell which will be a nice price point for those who don't want to drop $2-2.5k on a Schoepps active setup.
Right now, I've stuck with the CA-14 cards for these occasions because there really is nothing "in between" at this time. There are mics like the Audix M1280C which, while are nice, it's debatable as to whether or not they're a "huge improvement" over the CA-14's (and they're between 2 and 3x the price as well).
Chris Church is working on a new cardioid mic design but he's stated the capsule size is closer to an inch so these will be more in line with the size of the "bigger boys" but it will be a matter of trying these out to see how they compare.
That's my $0.05.
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another advantage to the dpa's is the stellar build quality. My 4061's were well used when I got them and I have used them another 7 years without problems.
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another advantage to the dpa's is the stellar build quality. My 4061's were well used when I got them and I have used them another 7 years without problems.
That's not to say you can abuse them, either. They're AWESOME little mics and serve me well as well. Mine were ex-theatre and passed along through a few people and they've had ZERO issues.
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Adrian,
I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.
My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
$1400 $500 $150
Michael
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Adrian,
I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.
My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
$1400 $500 $150
All I'd like to know is, do the 1290's sound 3x better than the 853's and do the 930's sound 3x better than 1290's or 9x better than 853's? ;D
I was looking the the M1280's at one point but didn't see a 2x improvement over the CA-14's so decided to hold out...
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I think they do. I wish I could have ran mine with a TB back in the day to save me the added challenge of sleping the MP2, but I did pull the heat with that combo.
We could probably make arrangements to lend/borrow the Audix if you are curious. Or I could just send a couple samples.
I have regretted running my at853's every time since I bought the Audix and I have not ran the Audix since I got the Beyers.
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Adrian,
I believe the Audix 1290/80's are a good in between mic and that was just how I used them.
My Beyer 930's smoke my Audix 1290's who smoke my AT853's.
$1400 $500 $150
All I'd like to know is, do the 1290's sound 3x better than the 853's and do the 930's sound 3x better than 1290's or 9x better than 853's? ;D
I was looking the the M1280's at one point but didn't see a 2x improvement over the CA-14's so decided to hold out...
I think M pretty much answered the question, but then again, so did you.
Are the 930's worth 9x the AT853's -- yes for anyone who decided to make that purchase, no for anyone who weighed it out and decided against them.
Obviously a very subjective and personal question, and pretty much by definition, if someone shelled out for them, then it was worth 9x the price (unless of course they regretted their purchase). Presumably as microphones that are designed to reproduce sound, then if they are worth 9x the price, they sound 9x better to the person who bought them (recognizing that there can be other values like small, active-style mics compared to full-bodied mics).
I own a pair of mc950's, which I guess were only $750, so not 9x a set of AT853's, but I also have a pair of Milabs, which were more than 9x the price of the 853's that I also own. To me, they sound 9x better. Others who don't feel that way probably don't own a set of Milabs.
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^^^ I agree; it's a pretty subjective assessment. But even if there was some objectively measureable "sound quality", I don't know why you would expect it to be linearly related to cost. I think for most products, the improvements become increasingly incremental as you get higher up the price scale.
Plus there are a number of other things you might factor into value, such as build quality, customer service, available accessories, even name brand appeal. Maybe there is another mic, for say $500, that somebody thinks sounds exactly as good as a Schoeps. That person could well decide that the cost difference is the most important factor and go with the cheaper mic. Or they might decide that the quality, excellent customer service, and enormous flexibility (in terms of mounting, powering, other capsules, etc.) of the Schoeps was worth the extra cash...
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I'd look on the LMA and see if there is a microphone that stands out to your ears as pleasing. Lots of combinations could be put together for that amount. I'd consider a Naiant Tiny Box V2 as a preamp then you have a lot of choices, some that come to mind:
AKG C460's with a couple of capsule's
Beyer 930's if you like a darker sound
Busman LDC Stereo Microphone BSCS-L or his Active Setup
Audio Technica AT4051's
The Busman BSCS-L is discontinued for the moment. I have one of the VERY FEW around :)
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I just bought a pair of DPA 4035 :)
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nice move. Enjoy! 8)