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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Phuncz on June 01, 2012, 01:17:44 PM
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Hello, I'm new here. I've read some interesting topics here but I still have plenty of questions.
The reason I got here was that many years ago, when I did my first festival, I hated it I couldn't relive that experience I had back then. I wished there was some way of recording it but I didn't know how without crap sound. After thinking about this a few times, I finally got where I am now (here, LOL !) and I want to take it from the idea to the execution.
I bought a ticket for a summer festival this year (a few months away) and I'm planning on buying a recorder and getting it in. Those are also my questions: which recorder and how. Which recorder WAS simple, I decided on the Tascam DR-40 until I saw it's dimensions: it's a brick ! It's bigger than the box my phone came in. I like to think the DR-40 is a decent beginner's choice but this thing has to get INSIDE the venue. And no security mammoth is going to let me in with professional looking equipment the size of the stuff walls are made out of.
I saw the Sony PCM-M10 being mentioned, it is very compact and easily hidden in something else like a digital camera pouch and it looks that way too. But it costs almost double and I want to keep My First Recorder © about 150 €/$. Since it's a large summer festival, regular pat-downs are ensued, along with backpack checks. So I need something that I can actually hide in something else (not my but crack).
How are you thinking about the iPod Touch + Tascam iM2 addon ? Getting both inside is not a problem but I don't know what I should expect from the microphones. I don't know what I should expect from the onboard mics on the Tascam or Sony recorders mentioned above, but I'll see if youtube can help me with that.
EDIT: this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N16ueQJPUbc) was recorded with the Tascam what I presume with the standard microphones. Would small and affordable (~50 €/$) omni's be an option to improve the sound or do I need to look at 200 €/$ ?
I'm also thinking about a thermos bottle with a hidden compartment to get stuff in. Any advice is welcome, I've searched this forum but it seems I can't find most of my answers that way.
Thanks in advance for your time !
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I still have plenty of questions.
Ask one
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Sorry, my message got sent by accident before it was finished, I'm updating the start post in a few minutes !
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Is it really necessary to discuss stealth techniques in a popular world wide forum? Seems really foolish to me.
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get a tascam dr-2d. Everytime i look it drops in price. Last i saw it for was around $130-150 US. There have even been sales cheaper than that. The internal mics are listenable and once you have the money you can get some external mics to use with it. Im not sure how pat downs are where you live but the old tucked-under-the-nuts trick seems to work pretty well everywhere ive been in the world.
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Like this?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/MokePics2/emoticons%20and%20misc%20stuff/hasselhoff.gif)
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Is it really necessary to discuss stealth techniques in a popular world wide forum? Seems really foolish to me.
I'm pretty new at this, so I didn't know it was that big of an issue. I always thought the security didn't want weapons inside and the rest of the illegal list is just for fluff.
get a tascam dr-2d. Everytime i look it drops in price. Last i saw it for was around $130-150 US. There have even been sales cheaper than that. The internal mics are listenable and once you have the money you can get some external mics to use with it.
Hmm it might be a good choice yes. I'll remember that one, thanks !
Im not sure how pat downs are where you live but the old tucked-under-the-nuts trick seems to work pretty well everywhere ive been in the world.
Hmm not the idea I had in mind :) I'd rather have it hidden somehow not on my body. It's not that they don't pat you in your private parts but I don't want to walk around with a recorder between my legs that could fall out or get crushed.
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Is it really necessary to discuss stealth techniques in a popular world wide forum? Seems really foolish to me.
I'm pretty new at this, so I didn't know it was that big of an issue. I always thought the security didn't want weapons inside and the rest of the illegal list is just for fluff.
get a tascam dr-2d. Everytime i look it drops in price. Last i saw it for was around $130-150 US. There have even been sales cheaper than that. The internal mics are listenable and once you have the money you can get some external mics to use with it.
Hmm it might be a good choice yes. I'll remember that one, thanks !
Im not sure how pat downs are where you live [This is what you should not discuss].
While it is fine to discuss various sizes of recorders and their potential low-profile usage publicly, please refrain from discussing stealth "techniques" such as what I deleted above on this board. Lots of folks are sensitive about it, especially the ones who stealth regularly. The board has a "PM" function to discuss things like this privately.
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Like Darby Crash said "What We Do Is Secret"
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Where's my minus T's when I need them......?
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Get a Tascam DR-2D, CA-14 mics and CA9200 preamp. All so small that I can think of 100 ways to get it in. Its smaller than a beta tape which we used to sneak in in addition to the 3 batteries, mics,, cables, PCM F-1 and SL2000 (see my avatar). Anything short of the new TSA screening devices that make you "naked" couldn't stop me.
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not trying to be smartass, but the answer to where to hide it is where it won't be found.
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Get a Tascam DR-2D, CA-14 mics and CA9200 preamp.
It seems a solid combo but it will be difficult to get all of this for 450$ in Europe which is way above my target. I know it's very newbie of me to think that this is a cheap affair, but I don't yet want to splash that kind of dough on a new interest. So maybe I need to forget about seperate mics for a while until I'm sure this is what I want.
So maybe a better question would be, is the Sony PCM-M10 worth the extra money sound quality wise over the Tascam DR-2D ?
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How are you thinking about the iPod Touch + Tascam iM2 addon ?
rubbish
my rig in the sig did cost me 250 euros (Mics New, Preamp + recorder used)
if you order from Chris Church it might take very long time, or watch in the yard sale to get a used set.
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So the Tascam DR-05 is also a contester. As a newbie, the dual recording function of the DR-2D interests me but I don't know if it would be relevant to me (I say it again: me = newbie).
I see plenty of people running pre-amped mics, is it really needed to achieve better quality than the standard mics or are there mics that will improve the recording without a preamp ? I'm not worried about the stealthability but the total price. I'll be keeping my eye on the classifieds, but I'm not seeying much relevant products offered.
EDIT: I'm having a hard time choosing which recorder is better for me. I'm partial to the Sony for it's massive battery life and it seems to offer a better out of the box recording quality. It also resembling a photo camera from it's side helps it's stealthability. It's more expensive but it seems that is the way this is going anyway I guess...
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So the Tascam DR-05 is also a contester. As a newbie, the dual recording function of the DR-2D interests me but I don't know if it would be relevant to me (I say it again: me = newbie).
I see plenty of people running pre-amped mics, is it really needed to achieve better quality than the standard mics or are there mics that will improve the recording without a preamp ? I'm not worried about the stealthability but the total price. I'll be keeping my eye on the classifieds, but I'm not seeying much relevant products offered.
EDIT: I'm having a hard time choosing which recorder is better for me. I'm partial to the Sony for it's massive battery life and it seems to offer a better out of the box recording quality. It also resembling a photo camera from it's side helps it's stealthability. It's more expensive but it seems that is the way this is going anyway I guess...
The M10 is very nice with best in class preamps, meaning you can save a bit and get a battery box instead of a preamp. The DR-2D, which I also own, is strong when you want to record 4 channels for cheap. As far as mics, go to archive.org and run searches on CA-11, CA-14, AT-853, and Countryman B3. These are all low to mid range stealthable mics. Decide what sounds best to your ears, and get them. The main advantage of external mics, besides quality, is position. Without going into stealth techniques in an open forum, mics sound better where there are less obstructions. Unless you are going to balance the recorder on your head or hold it over your head pretending it's a phone, you won't get a great recording. Just try sitting down at a standing show, that's what your recorder will pick up. Small mics can get higher on you body without being obvious.
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The M10 is very nice with best in class preamps, meaning you can save a bit and get a battery box instead of a preamp. The DR-2D, which I also own, is strong when you want to record 4 channels for cheap. As far as mics, go to archive.org and run searches on CA-11, CA-14, AT-853, and Countryman B3. These are all low to mid range stealthable mics. Decide what sounds best to your ears, and get them.
Thx, a lot of info and I'll look into the mics. Something I've read about the Church Audio's is that they are specifically built for loud environments without distorting, but I guess they can't be the only ones that are built that way.
4 channel recording seems to me as a good way to get a better recording by running 2 sets of mics, but I'm nowhere near that ballpark yet. So I'll guess the Sony seems to be the better choice. Although the DR-05 seems a good option, running it with a preamp and decent mics will run me about double of the Sony and that's not where I want to start yet.
The main advantage of external mics, besides quality, is position. Without going into stealth techniques in an open forum, mics sound better where there are less obstructions. Unless you are going to balance the recorder on your head or hold it over your head pretending it's a phone, you won't get a great recording. Just try sitting down at a standing show, that's what your recorder will pick up. Small mics can get higher on you body without being obvious.
Well, I was actually thinking about having the recorder on my head, under a baseball cap... :-X But you bring valid points, I'll have to think about what would be best.
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The main advantage of external mics, besides quality, is position. Without going into stealth techniques in an open forum, mics sound better where there are less obstructions. Unless you are going to balance the recorder on your head or hold it over your head pretending it's a phone, you won't get a great recording. Just try sitting down at a standing show, that's what your recorder will pick up. Small mics can get higher on you body without being obvious.
Well, I was actually thinking about having the recorder on my head, under a baseball cap... :-X But you bring valid points, I'll have to think about what would be best.
One drawback to the M10 is that the onboard mics are omnis spaced close together. To get a good stereo picture with omnis you need more space and/or a head between them. There are VST plugins for post-processing that can help that, but...
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The main advantage of external mics, besides quality, is position. Without going into stealth techniques in an open forum, mics sound better where there are less obstructions. Unless you are going to balance the recorder on your head or hold it over your head pretending it's a phone, you won't get a great recording. Just try sitting down at a standing show, that's what your recorder will pick up. Small mics can get higher on you body without being obvious.
Well, I was actually thinking about having the recorder on my head, under a baseball cap... :-X But you bring valid points, I'll have to think about what would be best.
One drawback to the M10 is that the onboard mics are omnis spaced close together. To get a good stereo picture with omnis you need more space and/or a head between them. There are VST plugins for post-processing that can help that, but...
Has anyone experimented and made up a small jeklin disc for this machine?
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I only ran mine for a few weeks while I searched the yardsale for my external mics.
Now that you've got me thinking though....
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The main advantage of external mics, besides quality, is position. Without going into stealth techniques in an open forum, mics sound better where there are less obstructions. Unless you are going to balance the recorder on your head or hold it over your head pretending it's a phone, you won't get a great recording. Just try sitting down at a standing show, that's what your recorder will pick up. Small mics can get higher on you body without being obvious.
Well, I was actually thinking about having the recorder on my head, under a baseball cap... :-X But you bring valid points, I'll have to think about what would be best.
One drawback to the M10 is that the onboard mics are omnis spaced close together. To get a good stereo picture with omnis you need more space and/or a head between them. There are VST plugins for post-processing that can help that, but...
Has anyone experimented and made up a small jeklin disc for this machine?
It wasn't for this machine and it wasn't a J-disc but the first couple of posts in this thread (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=70134.0) might be able to be adapted to the M10.
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One drawback to the M10 is that the onboard mics are omnis spaced close together. To get a good stereo picture with omnis you need more space and/or a head between them. There are VST plugins for post-processing that can help that, but...
A valid point. I guess I can't have it all, but I rather have clarity than stereo seperation.
Mind you that most taping I'll be doing, won't be of rock, but mainly of alternative and electronic music.
I've noticed in searching around this forum, almost all people are taping rock and jazz.
I've listened to some recordings from the CA-11 and Countryman B3 on archive.org. What baffeled me is how much emphasis on low there is and a lack of highs. Is this to be expected ? I don't mind having a good low-frequency response but almost all recordings seem to sound very boomy. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong recordings, but could someone link me to a recording they feel is accurate for the afformentioned CA-11's in a large festival environment ?
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I've listened to some recordings from the CA-11 and Countryman B3 on archive.org. What baffeled me is how much emphasis on low there is and a lack of highs. Is this to be expected ? I don't mind having a good low-frequency response but almost all recordings seem to sound very boomy. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong recordings, but could someone link me to a recording they feel is accurate for the afformentioned CA-11's in a large festival environment ?
boomy is the easiest thing to edit in post processing, dont worry about it (unless boomy comes with disortion). pm me or email, got a lot of experience in EU so i may help you.
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Here's an outdoor capture with CA-11 omnis. I think I did a little EQ on the bass. I wasn't that close and it was a bit windy.
http://www.mediafire.com/?7yfxmh9ux2xeh7u
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Thx Ziggz, it sounds a lot brighter than what I heard until now. I think I have a good idea what the mics are going to give me.
I found another example of the target setup I'm probably going to end up with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8LI-lvQzQ4 (available in 720p/1080p -> better sound quality)
And this seems like it's the Sony M10's built-in mics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqMdUF6RlUU
For now I'm probably going to be happy with the Sony M10 on it's own and I'll need to check the classifieds for some set of CA-11 mics.
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A valid point. I guess I can't have it all, but I rather have clarity than stereo seperation.
Mind you that most taping I'll be doing, won't be of rock, but mainly of alternative and electronic music.
I've noticed in searching around this forum, almost all people are taping rock and jazz.
I've listened to some recordings from the CA-11 and Countryman B3 on archive.org. What baffeled me is how much emphasis on low there is and a lack of highs. Is this to be expected ? I don't mind having a good low-frequency response but almost all recordings seem to sound very boomy. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong recordings, but could someone link me to a recording they feel is accurate for the afformentioned CA-11's in a large festival environment ?
http://archive.org/details/papadosio2010-07-23.ca11s.16bit <-- theres a fairly good example, maybe not the best for what youll be taping but its got a good range IMO. my ca-11s always have emphasis on the low end when its a loud or indoor show, is that the case of what you are referring to up there? i use ca-14 omnis and cards and would actually recommend either of those over the 11s but thats just my opinion. the 11s also come in card and omni(with switching caps i think), so if it was the omnis that could explain it as well.
http://archive.org/details/nrps2008-09-06 < heres another. i guess now that i think about it you said large festival and these are smaller festivals. either way, good examples of CA-11 outdoors.
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The Roland R-05 has been widely recommended to people in Europe, where it is much cheaper than the PCM-M10. You might also check it out.
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140726.0
If you are at an EDM festival you definitely don't need a preamp. Mic-->battery box-->Line-in will do it.
If you are using internals, you won't know until you try whether it overloads the mics or not. Ultraloud music can overload the mics themselves, and if it does, you'll get a good recording of ugly distortion. Don't get too close to subwoofers.
Here's a snippet of Danny Tenaglia. CA-14--9V Battbox--Line-in. Only post-processing was Amplify, because I was being conservative about levels, a fade at the end and mp3 conversion. It's dance-music bass, but the the highs of the vocal sample and hi-hat are also crisp. And the CA-14 were only chest high--you'd get even more high end with them in a hat (acoustically transparent of course).
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Whatever you do, BUY mics. Save a bit more to get a real setup.
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Whatever you do, BUY mics. Save a bit more to get a real setup.
I'm trying to but I can't now justify spending 300$/€ extra on something I've not made up my mind about. Not that I don't want them, but I'm still searching which ones. The mic department is very new for me and I'm still exploring stuff like wind noise reduction, stereo seperation, mic placement, etc.
If I can find something I'm confident is the best for my purpose and it justifies the cost, I'll go for it.
The Roland R-05 has been widely recommended to people in Europe, where it is much cheaper than the PCM-M10. You might also check it out.
I checked it out, but at 199€, it's only 20€ cheaper than the Sony. I'm still partial for the Sony in that perspective.
EDIT: delving deeper into microphones, I'm looking for some locally and this one seems reasonably priced: Soundman OKM II (http://www.soundman.de/en/products/okm-ii-studio-rock/) available for <199€ incl. power supply
Hmm, I can get this one and the Sony M10 for about 400€.
Damn, a few days ago I was like "max 200€, max 200€, max 200€"...
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See if you can borrow or rent some microphones. We used to rent Schoeps before I had the dough to buy them. Best part of that was I was less concerned about taking the rented Schoepes out in the rain. There is a gear loaner link on here. You will likely be dissatisfied with an internal mic recording so it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy
Whatever you do, BUY mics. Save a bit more to get a real setup.
I'm trying to but I can't now justify spending 300$/€ extra on something I've not made up my mind about. Not that I don't want them, but I'm still searching which ones. The mic department is very new for me and I'm still exploring stuff like wind noise reduction, stereo seperation, mic placement, etc.
If I can find something I'm confident is the best for my purpose and it justifies the cost, I'll go for it.
The Roland R-05 has been widely recommended to people in Europe, where it is much cheaper than the PCM-M10. You might also check it out.
I checked it out, but at 199€, it's only 20€ cheaper than the Sony. I'm still partial for the Sony in that perspective.
EDIT: delving deeper into microphones, I'm looking for some locally and this one seems reasonably priced: Soundman OKM II (http://www.soundman.de/en/products/okm-ii-studio-rock/) available for <199€ incl. power supply
Hmm, I can get this one and the Sony M10 for about 400€.
Damn, a few days ago I was like "max 200€, max 200€, max 200€"...
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Damn, a few days ago I was like "max 200€, max 200€, max 200€"...
welcome to our world :D
fwiw i have an m10, and yes it sucks that the m10 is so pricy over here, but it's a solid piece of kit and the battery life is insane (that was the deal-clincher for me)
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Yeah the battery life is what is really appealing to me too. When I'm going to a festival for a few days, I don't want to carry around a 24-pack of AA batteries if I can run with 4 spares.
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Yeah the battery life is what is really appealing to me too. When I'm going to a festival for a few days, I don't want to carry around a 24-pack of AA batteries if I can run with 4 spares.
If you use lithiums, you can run a whole Fest on one set.
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What kind are you referring to ? Because the only Lithium-ion batteries I know are 3.7V cells or made up of a multiple of those.
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Energizer lithium AAs is what I use. They are disposable, not rechargeable. Behind a preamp, I've gotten >50hrs off of a pair. Running PIP I would bet they'll go 20 at least.
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Whatever you do, BUY mics. Save a bit more to get a real setup.
I'm trying to but I can't now justify spending 300$/€ extra on something I've not made up my mind about. Not that I don't want them, but I'm still searching which ones. The mic department is very new for me and I'm still exploring stuff like wind noise reduction, stereo seperation, mic placement, etc.
If I can find something I'm confident is the best for my purpose and it justifies the cost, I'll go for it.
The Roland R-05 has been widely recommended to people in Europe, where it is much cheaper than the PCM-M10. You might also check it out.
I checked it out, but at 199€, it's only 20€ cheaper than the Sony. I'm still partial for the Sony in that perspective.
EDIT: delving deeper into microphones, I'm looking for some locally and this one seems reasonably priced: Soundman OKM II (http://www.soundman.de/en/products/okm-ii-studio-rock/) available for <199€ incl. power supply
Hmm, I can get this one and the Sony M10 for about 400€.
Damn, a few days ago I was like "max 200€, max 200€, max 200€"...
well for the love of fucking god, (or maybe that's the queen these days) don't waste your time recording without external mics.
Or we will all make fun of your internal mic all in one recording.