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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Riverside Reptiles on June 14, 2012, 03:50:07 PM
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Took a break from the hobby about ten years ago. Want to get set up for some smaller stealth shows again. When I left the scene, DAT was still the standard. I assume that most everyone is using stealthy little digital recorders now. My biggest question to start with is, are people using their android/iphones for recording now? And if so, can someone point me to some threads that I can read about it??? And if not, what IS the current "standard" stealth set up these days?
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Took a break from the hobby about ten years ago. Want to get set up for some smaller stealth shows again. When I left the scene, DAT was still the standard. I assume that most everyone is using stealthy little digital recorders now. My biggest question to start with is, are people using their android/iphones for recording now? And if so, can someone point me to some threads that I can read about it??? And if not, what IS the current "standard" stealth set up these days?
Size, quality, and reliability the Sony PCM-M10 is very popular, retails for $220 or so in the US. 15 hours on 2AA batteries, quiet preamps and it's only a bit bigger than an iPhone. The quality of the input circuitry on phones isn't up to our standards. In addition, the Zoom line is popular amoung newbies, but tapers with experience stay away as they have been plagued with noisy inputs, preamps, and just aren't built as well.
Power to the mics, the one limitation of the small recorders is they don't put out much voltage for plug-in power. You will need an external battery box or preamp.
Mics, well it depends on your budget. Church Audio CA-14s with a battery box run under $200, Countryman B3 for a very small omni is popular. I'm sure others will chime in with DPA and Schoeps opinions for higher budgets.
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Thanks for the info. I had kind of assumed that about the input circuity on smart phones. I guess that I had hoped that someone might have started doing some sort of mod or something. It just seems like such a natural thing to stealth with since you pretty much always have your phone with you and Android being an open source OS seems like you could make some pretty awesome recording software to run on it as well. I wonder, are tablets set up with any better input than smart phones? That PCM-M10 looks like a nice device, and at $200 isn't going to break the bank. But in the long run, I'd really like to have less devices to carry around rather than more. I guess we're just not there quite yet. Thanks again for the info!
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Yeah, and I wish my phone was my car was my shoe was my refrigerator was my morning coffee. Lots less devices to carry. ::)
iPhones are diluting the quality of recordings at an exponential rate. BLEH, feh... :P
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You make it sound as if it's some sort of impossible feat. Perhaps newbies recording with iphones as they currently are may well be putting some crappy recordings out there. But that doesn't mean that down the road things won't change. And there has always been people recording with sub par devices. You'll always have some people who take their recording more seriously than others and some budgets that are bigger than others. I'm not worried so much about the monetary end of things. I've had $2k rigs and I've had $200 rigs in the past. But after 20+ years of the hobby I got burned out on the hassles. And one of the bigger hassles was dragging around a bunch of gear. Now, after having taken a break, I'm looking to build something that'll sound decent, and be easy to stealth with at the smaller shows that I tend to go to these days. So the idea of being able to use a smart phone is appealing. If the technology isn't there yet, so be it. That's why I was asking.
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Dude, what I'm telling you is you are definitely trying to PREACH to the WRONG CHOIR around this community.
If you really have been in this hobby for 20+ years, 20+ seconds of listening to a iFag recording (yes, I said iFag,,,hey,we need a :zoomie1: for that, mods) will tell you everything you need to know.
Manufacturers of these things are trying their best to NOT make them good audio recorders, in my experience and humble opinion. Every new generation of them is made more incompatible for our needs.....evidenced by the recent move made to remove analog in/outs from the 30-pin connector.
There is a wealth of knowledge among the members of this community about small, high quality recording rigs, and in the archive contained here. Google is your friend, but taperssection is your best buddy.
Sincerely,
capn
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You make it sound as if it's some sort of impossible feat. Perhaps newbies recording with iphones as they currently are may well be putting some crappy recordings out there. But that doesn't mean that down the road things won't change. And there has always been people recording with sub par devices. You'll always have some people who take their recording more seriously than others and some budgets that are bigger than others. I'm not worried so much about the monetary end of things. I've had $2k rigs and I've had $200 rigs in the past. But after 20+ years of the hobby I got burned out on the hassles. And one of the bigger hassles was dragging around a bunch of gear. Now, after having taken a break, I'm looking to build something that'll sound decent, and be easy to stealth with at the smaller shows that I tend to go to these days. So the idea of being able to use a smart phone is appealing. If the technology isn't there yet, so be it. That's why I was asking.
You can tape a show with your iPhone: http://tascam.com/product/im2/ Just like you could have taped with CSBs > minidisc...
The results may be tolerable, but you'll get better results with a nice Sony M10 and a nicer mic/preamp...
I'm of the opinion that its worth the extra money to invest in something that will produce better results more consistently... But if you are >:D then you may not want to lug around all the crap...
There are several Phil tapes on BT.ETREE if you want to check them out (http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=554936). They were taped with the Tascam > iPod... I also recommend looking through Archive.org and finding some tapes made with Church Audio mics, etc...
Welcome back!!!
Terry
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Thanks for the welcome back Terry. My last rig was JW mod c460s > V2 > todd-mod sbm-1 > D8. And although I made a lot of great recordings with it, between the rig, the stand, the caps, the cables, the gear, etc., having to lug it all around, set it up and break down, etc...it just became too consuming for me and started taking away from the fun of just going to a show and chilling out. Now I basically just want a rig for the smaller more local gigs that I go to that don't get recorded by anyone. That little sony recorder looks nice and I'll probably just go with that. But like I said, I was in hopes that smart phones had evolved enough to do the job. Especially since they're being geared more and more towards being part of societies overall audio/video experience. So many people now plug their phones into everything from their car stereos, to home stereo, and tv for video. You would think that the quality of the audio/video aspects would be increasing, not decreasing.
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The output might be adequate, but the input side of things is weak.
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Since those tiny (relative to past generation equipment) idevices are being geared more and more towards being part of societies overall audio/video experience they have to give up something to get all the "features" into that small size and I'm afraid what has been given up is audio quality. MP3 is fine for the vast majority of society but not for us. Maybe sometime in the future you'll be able to get JW mod c460s > V2 > todd-mod sbm-1 > D8 quality in a smart phone but for now if you want something comparable look for Church Audio mics if on a budget, DPAs or several other better brands if budget isn't your primary consideration, and one of the smaller recorders. The Sony M10 is highly regarded around here. Several other brands and models have threads devoted to them but the Sony seems to be the de facto choice. Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
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Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
:smash: Hear, hear....could not agree more, flipp
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http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?&Product_Id=633431&subid=277970
I heard a recording made with similar device + iphone + good external mics (it was Cat Power show somewhere in Japan) and i remember it was pretty enjoyable. Sound was a bit hissy, but not too much.
But I use pcm-m10. ;-)
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Thanks for the welcome back Terry. My last rig was JW mod c460s > V2 > todd-mod sbm-1 > D8. And although I made a lot of great recordings with it, between the rig, the stand, the caps, the cables, the gear, etc., having to lug it all around, set it up and break down, etc...it just became too consuming for me and started taking away from the fun of just going to a show and chilling out. Now I basically just want a rig for the smaller more local gigs that I go to that don't get recorded by anyone. That little sony recorder looks nice and I'll probably just go with that. But like I said, I was in hopes that smart phones had evolved enough to do the job. Especially since they're being geared more and more towards being part of societies overall audio/video experience. So many people now plug their phones into everything from their car stereos, to home stereo, and tv for video. You would think that the quality of the audio/video aspects would be increasing, not decreasing.
You obviously are an experienced taper - meaning you not only like making good recordings, but you know how.
Nobody here will endorse the idea that an iPhone or a phone and the various crap people plug into them as "mics" will make a good recording- they're all pretty bad.
BUT I think you asked a different question. I don't see, personally, why one couldn't make software that could allow you to use the phone properly as merely the recorder, plugged into a decent set of mics. In fact, I believe some of the stuff out there already allows you to put a true line-level input into the iPhone. I think the limitation you'd see is that these phones are already doing too much at once, and most of it not well. My iPhone is an amazing piece of technology, but it's basically a shitty camera, a shitty phone, a shitty GPS, a shitty web browser, and a shitty game machine all in one. The fact that it does all of that is great, but I would never want to rely on this thing to do anything right. Eventually I could see phones that ran with enough stability and that had enough RAM that they could take in audio, but they're not there yet.
If you just want to kind of ease back in (famous last words from the guy who owned his old CSBs and an R-09HR back in 2009 and now owns $10k worth of gear), go with something nice and easy like the M10, Countryman B3s or Church Audio CA-14s, and have fun. That rig won't cost you more than $400 total and it'll make way better tapes than the stuff you could stealth with in the 90s.
Welcome back!
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Thanks for the welcome back Terry. My last rig was JW mod c460s > V2 > todd-mod sbm-1 > D8. And although I made a lot of great recordings with it, between the rig, the stand, the caps, the cables, the gear, etc., having to lug it all around, set it up and break down, etc...it just became too consuming for me and started taking away from the fun of just going to a show and chilling out. Now I basically just want a rig for the smaller more local gigs that I go to that don't get recorded by anyone. That little sony recorder looks nice and I'll probably just go with that. But like I said, I was in hopes that smart phones had evolved enough to do the job. Especially since they're being geared more and more towards being part of societies overall audio/video experience. So many people now plug their phones into everything from their car stereos, to home stereo, and tv for video. You would think that the quality of the audio/video aspects would be increasing, not decreasing.
There a few really nice all-in-one units out there now. I have a Tascam HD-P2, which is the upgrade of the old DA-P1. It is pretty much the same unit, except now it records to a compact flash card instead of a DAT. Marantz makes a similar unit, but if you were to think about this route, I would suggest the Marantz PMD-661. It is about the size of your hand, records 24/96, has a digital SPDIF input if you ever want to add an outboard digital preamp>ADC like a V3, and records to SD Card. Just plug in your typical condenser mics and you're set...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=594741&Q=&is=REG&A=details
Of course, it is much more expensive than the M10, but it offers more features... If you think you might want to add on a V3 or similar later, this may more suit your needs... YMMV, just something else to think about...
Terry
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Welcome back to the monkey house, Riverside.
I agree. A smart phone with a nice-sounding analog front-end would be the stealthers dream. I doubt it will happen any time soon. Let's face it, if we did a Venn diagram of the wants/needs of the average smart phone user, and pro-sumer or pro-audio population the two probably wouldn't even meet. Hell, there's plenty of us on here that drool over the idea of a PCM-M10 sized device capable of accepting a SPDIF input. Still waiting for that to happen, but it probably won't.
But for now, the PCM-M10 is where it's at as far as a pocket-able recording device for James Bond recording sessions.
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PCM-M10 sized device capable of accepting a SPDIF input.
There's the Micro-Crapper... Its junk IMO... But some people like it...
Terry
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Hell, there's plenty of us on here that drool over the idea of a PCM-M10 sized device capable of accepting a SPDIF input.
Yeahyouright tim in jersey.
Quoted here for emphasis, in case there are any corporate trolls lurking about, doing marketing research.... 8)
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Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
:smash: Hear, hear....could not agree more, flipp
I second this opinion. :smash: :smash:
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after 20+ years of the hobby I got burned out on the hassles. And one of the bigger hassles was dragging around a bunch of gear. Now, after having taken a break, I'm looking to build something that'll sound decent, and be easy to stealth with at the smaller shows that I tend to go to these days. So the idea of being able to use a smart phone is appealing. If the technology isn't there yet, so be it. That's why I was asking.
Most of us don't consider carrying an M10, a small battery box and a set of mics like the CA-14's as dragging around a bunch of gear. Also there are some mics that the M10 will power fine without a battery box (CA-11's, AT853's). In addition, if you could find the more expensive Marantz PMD-620 used at a good price on E-Bay (I lucked out & got good one for $150), it will power most any mini-mics you'd want to throw at it including CA-14's and DPA 4061's.
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Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
:smash: Hear, hear....could not agree more, flipp
I'm curious...why don't you guys think the Tascam DR100MKii does this?
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Power to the mics, the one limitation of the small recorders is they don't put out much voltage for plug-in power. You will need an external battery box or preamp.
An external BB or pre used-to-be required, but nowadays this really isn't an absolute requirement...it all depends on the specific handheld and the stuff you intend to record. More and more small inexpensive hand-helds are providing enough voltage to power mics without a battery box or preamp, at least for ampilified music where you don't need tons of clean preamp gain.
My AT853s (w/4.7k mod) sound just as good straight out of the mic-in jack on my Tascam DR2D as they do through a CA9100. Many hours of good quality recordings from summercamp last month are uploaded to www.archive.org with this combo.
The Sony M10 also does really well with the AT853 and church audio mics w/o either bb or a preamp. Again, this is if you don't need much clean preamp gain although the M10 is said to be really clean.
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Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
:smash: Hear, hear....could not agree more, flipp
I'm curious...why don't you guys think the Tascam DR100MKii does this?
Mainly because I'm not familiar with it. Adding it to my short list of decks to check when I'm finally ready to replace/add to my current stable. Quick question about it, what type of digi-ins does it have?
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Now if someone would only make a great, reliable, inexpensive bit-bucket lots of us would be very happy.
:smash: Hear, hear....could not agree more, flipp
I'm curious...why don't you guys think the Tascam DR100MKii does this?
Mainly because I'm not familiar with it. Adding it to my short list of decks to check when I'm finally ready to replace/add to my current stable. Quick question about it, what type of digi-ins does it have?
And does it lock SPDIF and/or AES at all bit depths and rates to a minime, a V3, a Benchmark AD2k, etc.
Aren't there a lot of unanswered questions about this unit? Referring to this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153273.0
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I guess google and the sites search feature is broke.
Come in play stupid and ask what the very question this site has been compiling data on
for what 10 years plus?
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Aren't there a lot of unanswered questions about this unit? Referring to this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153273.0
Not really (as far as I'm concerned). The issue is people don't understand SPDIF vs. AES compatibility and expect all digital DACs to communicate with all digital recorders. That's not reality.
The issue of these threads is whether the older digital devices (such as a Mytek, mini-me, V3, or AD2K) sent out digital data in a specific format. AES data is different than SPDIF data. The Tascam DR100MKii specs state clearly that it is SPDIF compatible (nothing said about AES, but we've confirmed through testing that it is NOT AES compatible). The Sony D50 also isn't universally backwards compatible with everything that was sold before it was designed and released.
That said, most of the more expensive digital recorders are happy with either AES or SPDIF so the question about compatibility doesn't come up with those units. But the cheapest more expensive digital unit is a PMD-661 at $600 (if someone wants to pay $300 more simply because they can't figure out whether their digital device is SPDIF compatible, is that a problem for Tascam?)
What this means is that, for anyone considering buying the DR100MKii it becomes important to figure out if the signal you'll be receiving with it is AES or SPDIF. If it's SPDIF, you should be fine. If it's AES and you're expecting compatibility, you'll probably be disappointed (however, as documented, the DR100MKii does indeed lock on a 16/44.1 AES).
So, I don't think there are any unanswered questions really. The compatibility question on the DR100MKii has been flushed and is well known for the DR100MKii. However, that might not mean that it's clear what...say an AD2K might be sending out since it's an older device that may or may conform to the SPDIF standard that was finalized after these were designed.
Bottom line, know your device and the digital format standard it sends and match that up to the recorder you're buying.
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I repeat the question, maybe it gets answered, maybe not.....
Does the Tascam DR100MKii lock SPDIF and/or AES at all bit depths and rates from a minime, a V3, a Benchmark AD2k, or any other thing this taper community uses to record with?
....or, can't you get an answer to a question around here anymore?
BONUS POINTS awarded for putting this valuable information in tabular form.
edit ---- for specificity
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I guess google and the sites search feature is broke.
Come in play stupid and ask what the very question this site has been compiling data on
for what 10 years plus?
Sit back and listen, let the adults talk, please.
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....or, can't you get an answer to a question around here anymore?
I had a fairly detailed response typed, but after seeing your response to Jackoroses, which I completely agree with, I deleted my response.
As jackoroses suggests, use the search tool and you'll find the answer.
I found answers to every device compatibility question you have within 20 seconds and within the first six hits of my search.
BTW, when someone asks a question that's been answered before and it goes unanswered, people tend to ignore the question...it's human nature, not rudeness.
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....or, can't you get an answer to a question around here anymore?
I had a fairly detailed response typed, but after seeing your response to Jackoroses, which I completely agree with, I deleted my response.
As jackoroses suggests, use the search tool and you'll find the answer.
(I found answers to every device compatibility question you have within 20 seconds and within the first six hits of my search.)
Thanks tonedeaf. You surely make this place a better place. Thought I'd give you a chance to contribute some valuable information that might be put into a sticky sometime.
Now, go play in the corner, and let the adults continue.
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I guess google and the sites search feature is broke.
Probably not. In my case I was just toodamnedlazy to bother using either.
Come in play stupid and ask what the very question this site has been compiling data on
for what 10 years plus?
Like I said, it'll be on the short list to research when I'm ready to replace/add to my current recorders. Sorry if you interpreted my quick question as "playing stupid". A short few-word answer would have sufficed. I'll know better than to expect a usable answer in the future and to not waste anyone else's time by even asking.
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NOTE: Specs for DR100MKii state that unit is SPDIF compatible, no AES.
Mini-me > DR100MKii
Locks on all SPDIF settings
Locks on 16/44.1 AES setting only
Mytek Stereo192 > DR100MKii
Does not lock on any SPDIF settings (although some have reported it locking at 44.1)
Does not lock on any AES settings
Note: Mytek also will not lock on Sony D50 digital input, ToddR provides explanation of the basic issue with the Mytek in this post:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153273.msg1943191#msg1943191
Sound Devices USBPre2 > DR100MKii
Locks on all SPDIF settings
Locks on 16/44.1 AES only, does not lock on any other AES settings
Sound Devices MixPreD > DR100MKii (Specs say that it has AES only, no SPDIF)
Does not lock on any SPDIF settings
Locks on 16/44.1 AES only, does not lock on any other AES settings
Grace V3 > DR100MKii
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Benchmark AD2K > DR100MKii
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No Flipp my post wasn't directed at you at all.
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I guess google and the sites search feature is broke.
Come in play stupid and ask what the very question this site has been compiling data on
for what 10 years plus?
Sit back and listen, let the adults talk, please.
go sit and spin your fucking silver platter trustafuckarian.
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NOTE: Specs for DR100MKii state that unit is SPDIF compatible, no AES.
Sound Devices MixPreD > DR100MKii (Specs say that it has AES only, no SPDIF)
Does not lock on any SPDIF settings
Locks on 16/44.1 AES only, does not lock on any other AES settings
Regarding the MixPreD this is quoted from the manual...
"Master Outputs/AES Output: Balanced AES3 Out on Right XLR connector, 110 ohm, 2 V p-p, AES3 and S/PDIF compatible with RCA adaptor."
I am interpolating that as it should be compatible with S/PDIF using an RCA adaptor as stated, but I'm not aware if anyone has actually tried it with a S/PDIF recorder.
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I agree. A smart phone with a nice-sounding analog front-end would be the stealthers dream. I doubt it will happen any time soon. Let's face it, if we did a Venn diagram of the wants/needs of the average smart phone user, and pro-sumer or pro-audio population the two probably wouldn't even meet.
I feel like this is a topic for a new thread, but isn't it really up to the makers of USB controlled preamps to release control software that can run on smartphones? The first on this bandwagon would sell a few units. iPhone already has multitrack recording software AFAIK (I still have a regular cell phone) so why are we not able to be making awesome multitrack recordings with phones? I would certainly join the modern age if I could also replace my recorder by buying a phone. And an SPDIF input device could be tiny and inexpensive to make.
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My last rig was JW mod c460s > V2 > todd-mod sbm-1 > D8. And although I made a lot of great recordings with it, between the rig, the stand, the caps, the cables, the gear, etc., having to lug it all around, set it up and break down, etc...it just became too consuming for me and started taking away from the fun of just going to a show and chilling out.
I ran the same rig less the JW mod on the 460's, and I agree it was a great combo for its time. Technology has gotten better since those days though and you can get similar (and often times better) results with much less money spent and less equipment...with the mics still probably consuming the majority of the expense.
And I hear you about setup and tear down, but at the end of the day when you make a great recording and listen to it for the rest of your life then I personally think it is all worth it in the end.
Welcome back to the obsession that is recording live music.