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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: bigu2fan on October 14, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
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Folks:
Had something strange happen last night at a show that left me scratching my head. I was hoping you guys could help. I was using this gear: SP-CMC-8 > SP-PREAMP > SONYPCM-M10.
The SP-PREAMP was plugged into the line in of the SONYPCM-M10. The show was a rock show but not particularly loud. I was testing my gear out before hand in my car with the car stereo turned up. I found I was having to go +20 on the SP-PREAMP to get anywhere near decent levels. All other shows I been to I have used +10. I didn't know what the deal was.
At the show, I had the SP-PREAMP plugged into the line in and set at +20. I was getting about -9 on the volume levels during the show, so I figured all would be OK with the recording. When I got home and listened to the recording it was pretty much a total loss. Lots of distortion, pops, the right channel way out of whack. I had the low cut off, plug in power off, level setting on manual.
I have used this rig successfully at other shows. It's been awhile, so i can't remember whether I should have plugged the SP-PREAMP into the line in or the mic in on the SONYPCM-M10.
Here are some samples of the recording.
http://www.filedropper.com/12101301
http://www.filedropper.com/1210130111
Any ideas what I have done? Are my mics/pre-amp/recorder fried? What did I do wrong?
Thanks very much in advance for any help you can give.
--bigu2fan
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The SP-PREAMP was plugged into the line in of the SONYPCM-M10. The show was a rock show but not particularly loud. I was testing my gear out before hand in my car with the car stereo turned up. I found I was having to go +20 on the SP-PREAMP to get anywhere near decent levels. All other shows I been to I have used +10. I didn't know what the deal was.
At the show, I had the SP-PREAMP plugged into the line in and set at +20. I was getting about -9 on the volume levels during the show, so I figured all would be OK with the recording. When I got home and listened to the recording it was pretty much a total loss. Lots of distortion, pops, the right channel way out of whack. I had the low cut off, plug in power off, level setting on manual.
--bigu2fan
I think for anyone to try to come up with a possible answer, they would need to know the recording level that you set your M10 to. Was it in the 3-4 range which is around where unity gain is (not amplifying or attenuating)? If it was set way off of that range, that is a possible reason for your problem. If it was set in that range, I am at a loss to explain why you got distortion at a not too loud concert with the preamp set at +20 dB.
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Levels on the recorder were at 7.
Should I have plugged the preamp into the line in or mic in?
Were u able to listen to the samples?
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Levels on the recorder were at 7.
Should I have plugged the preamp into the line in or mic in?
Were u able to listen to the samples?
Line in, and at 7 you added 9db of gain from the recorder plus the 20 at the pre so you had 29db of gain on top of whatever level was being feed from the pa
I didn't listen to the clips right yet but I would look into the battery in th pre too
I he that problem once' the levels and everything looked good but the recording was pretty much a waste only to find out the mic where not being powered correctly due to a weak battery
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I listened to the first clip. Sounds awful and the wave form has no dynamics. It's not completely flat but the peaks are never much above or below -7 dB. I'm guessing you may have brick walled the preamp by having it set to +20 and adding +9 dB (according to willndmb) with the recorder.
In the future, I wouldn't set the M10 above 3-4 and would get any remaining gain from the preamp (except in rare cases where the preamp won't even get you up to -12 dB peaks). With the M10 set at 3-4, your level meters should go over 0 dB if you are brick walling the preamp.
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willndmb: Thanks for the suggestion on swapping out batteries in the preamp. I will try that. I had had the same 9v in the preamp since about December 2011. I taped two shows successfully since Dec. 2011 on the same battery. This was the third and was completely messed up. maybe i should just go with new batteries for every show.
fmaderjr: thanks for your thoughts as well. what puzzles me is that for prior shows i had the recording level knob on the recorder set around 6. the preamp was always on +10. i would adjust the levels once the show started by adjusting the volume/gain knob on the preamp. i was mainly puzzled because this is the procedure i have followed in the past with great success.
also, using this mic>preamp>recorder rig, should i be plugging the preamp into the line in or the mic in on the recorder. always been going line in in the past...
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As a paranoid taper, I generally swap out the batteries after every show or I at least carry an extra pair with me. Oh, and never keep the batteries in your recorder or preamp in between taping gigs.
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I might humbly suggest that this is why preamps are a rather pointless item for recording loud rock shows stealth with lavalier-type mics. The M10 is a quiet deck. You'd have gotten fine levels using a simple battery box and running line-in, and you'd have had one less knob to fiddle with and a smaller second box to deal with. You were obviously stealthing, so why make life harder on yourself for some minimal (if any) benefit from using an outboard preamp to provide gain? Oh, and the preamp probably goes through 9V batteries more quickly than a simple Sound Pros or Church battery box, which can last for months and months.
For that matter, when I stealthed with DPA 4021s, which it's fair to say are a bit more sensitive and nuanced sound-wise (and dramatically more expensive) than SP-CMC-8s, I don't think there was much if any difference going DPA 4021>some kind of preamp>M10 or R-44 vs. DPA 4021>48V phantom battery box>M10. In fact, the best single stealth recording I did with that rig was with the latter. I made a lot of nice tapes with SP-CMC-8s with a simple battery box, too.
I realize this won't help you fix what's already happened, and it's a bummer that you lost this recording, but I'd at least consider taking this advice to heart for future shows. Best of luck on your next one.
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also, using this mic>preamp>recorder rig, should i be plugging the preamp into the line in or the mic in on the recorder. always been going line in in the past...
Although I'm not an active poster here, I dare to answer :) When using a pre-amp you should use line-in on the recorder.
I'm sorry to hear you lost the recording, my guess would be what willdnbm said. It did not happen to me, but to a friend, and the result was similar to what I listened to resp. looked at the sample you uploaded.
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As a paranoid taper, I generally swap out the batteries after every show or I at least carry an extra pair with me. Oh, and never keep the batteries in your recorder or preamp in between taping gigs.
I am going to make swapping out batteries every show a new rule...
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(...)
also, using this mic>preamp>recorder rig, should i be plugging the preamp into the line in or the mic in on the recorder. always been going line in in the past...
Although I'm not an active poster here, I dare to answer :) When using a pre-amp you should use line-in on the recorder.
I'm sorry to hear you lost the recording, my guess would be what willdnbm said. It did not happen to me, but to a friend, and the result was similar to what I listened to resp. looked at the sample you uploaded.
Is it possible I have somehow damaged the preamp/mics/recorder by running a preamp with a dead/losing life 9v battery? Maybe I am being paranoic, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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I wouldn't worry that you damaged anything with a weak battery.
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I always ran ca14>SP BB/CA 9100>M10. Using the 9100 LINE IN, using the SP BB using MIC IN ;) You only need a HQ BB for recording anything other than quiet jazz or the like. I even recorded LOUD oldies bands going ca14>SP BB>MIC-IN>M10 m:)
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Folks:
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--bigu2fan
Just dropping by to say I love your nickname :)