Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: imsammyd on December 17, 2012, 09:25:47 AM
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Hey all. After hours on the taperssection and advice from a lot of people, I recorded my first gig. CA-14 mics with the Church BB. My zoom h2 bit the dust when I plugged the mics into the line in, so I had to rush buy a horrible little Alesis PalmTrack from craigslist so I had a recorder. It actually worked ok though. 24Bit mode was busted, so I recorded in 16.
I rigged the mics up with some of that flexible twist tie stuff, it is nice and rubbery on the outside. Then I made a bracket with some alligator clips and hooked the thing to a shelf with a plastic clip. I set the mics in an XY configuration, no other reason than I don't know enough to pick a different one :).
Overall, I am happy with the mics and the sound. On the recordings, I added a little EQ and a little compression. The instruments sound good. The vocals sound a little like tin canny, know what I mean? Any suggestions or improvements would be greatly appreciated. Here is some stuff:
You tube video shot with iphone and synced audio from mics. I know it converted audio to 48. Not sure what else might have happened to it:
http://youtu.be/5n9E2ci3SoI
A couple uncompressed files. 16 bit WAV 44.1
http://archive.org/details/TheWeight_dkb_12-14-2012
http://archive.org/details/HelloTrouble_dkb_12-14-2012
A picture of my MacGyver setup :)
(http://danieldonato.com/crap/20121214-IMG_9843.jpg)
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Was the show in a store or just the picture?
Country artist? Lol
I used xy when trying to cut bass some but you can try din for example if you like
There is a thread with all the sit-ups here, I'll try and find it
This isn't what I was looking for but it will shoe you different options if you want to try something besides xy
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/StereoTechniques.aspx
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Hey all. After hours on the taperssection and advice from a lot of people, I recorded my first gig. CA-14 mics with the Church BB. My zoom h2 bit the dust when I plugged the mics into the line in, so I had to rush buy a horrible little Alesis PalmTrack from craigslist so I had a recorder. It actually worked ok though. 24Bit mode was busted, so I recorded in 16.
First of all, nice work and congratulations on your first recording! Sounds good, I think.
For posterity, I hope that people read the two bolded portions of your post above. I feel like there are times when people criticize folks on this board who correctly tell new people to stay away from crummy recorders like Zooms and Alesis Palmtracks and say "oh, that will work fine, these guys just want you to spend a bunch of money." Posts like the above are why folks should stay away from Zooms and similar products. Yes, they "work fine" in that they will make a recording, if they're working at all. Some devices are better made than others. In this day and age, a perfectly good and reliable recorder can be had for very little money - actually, for less than a Zoom H2. When people here say "don't buy a Zoom", they aren't being snobs - they're trying to steer people away from products that are unreliable.
Sorry for the PSA in the middle of your post. Were you using X/Y because you were off-center?
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The place used to be a boot store, but is a bar now. They just keep the boots for posterity.
I have read about the different microphone setups, just not real sure about what or why.... I was off center AcidJack, but if that was the best configuration, I just got lucky. For my next recording, I was going to place the mics about three feet higher and try ORTF. It is always a busy place and I am hoping that I can cut some of the crowd. ORTF, just because like XY, is pretty easy to angle the mics :)
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XY can be useful off center, or at least some people think it can. I would recommend a much simpler configuration - just point the mics right outside each PA stack. Unless you're up very close, ORTF will be too wide.
If you're WAY off center, like basically facing one stack, you can also just point both mics straight ahead at that stack. Of course, this means you'll lose whatever stereo information is coming out of the other stack, but usually that's not much anyway in small venues.
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Thanks AcidJack. I guess the moral of the story is that I don't have to be locked into any specific angles at all? This club is pretty narrow. The band has two overhead PA's for vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe some of the drum kit. The guitar and bass are straight out of the amps. Maybe I will try to point the mics somewhere below the PA's and above the amps. Then space them so that they are pointing to the left side, and right side of the stage, right outside of the overhead PA's.
Anything I can do to get the vocals a little clearer?
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Thanks AcidJack. I guess the moral of the story is that I don't have to be locked into any specific angles at all? This club is pretty narrow. The band has two overhead PA's for vocals, acoustic guitar and maybe some of the drum kit. The guitar and bass are straight out of the amps. Maybe I will try to point the mics somewhere below the PA's and above the amps. Then space them so that they are pointing to the left side, and right side of the stage, right outside of the overhead PA's.
Anything I can do to get the vocals a little clearer?
All of those recording angles - DIN, ORTF, etc. were designed for broadcast and studio-type recording - in general, pretty up-close and with different parameters than what we're doing here. The obsession with maintaining precise patterns has gotten popular on here in the past few years, but I think real-world evidence tends to show that just pointing outside the stacks is often better for live recording.
As to making your vocals "clearer", the more direct sound you are recording, the more you will hear direct sound rather than reverberant sounds. So again, the more your mics are pointed at the sound coming out of the stacks, the more likely you will hear clearer vocals (and everything else coming out of the stacks).
I never have really liked my recordings done with X/Y and wouldn't use that except for onstage.
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The obsession with maintaining precise patterns has gotten popular on here in the past few years, but I think real-world evidence tends to show that just pointing outside the stacks is often better for live recording.
QFT.
I guess the moral of the story is that I don't have to be locked into any specific angles at all?
To oversimplify, just think of your microphone pattern as a trade-off between distance and angle with a continuous and infinite number of options. It does help to a good sense for what a 'standard' config will sound like (For me, it's DIN (20cm at 90 degrees) using cardioid capsules, but if you're more familiar with, for example ORTF, that's fine too) and then work backwards. 90 degrees will usually point your microphones well outside the stacks, so if you wanted to run PAS one just needs to reduce the angle (i.e. 70 degrees) while increasing distance (i.e. 25cm).
Once you understand the contiguous scale of angle vs. distance, you'll find that every room and position has its own nuances and that by adhering to only a few common configs leaves a lot to be desired. The fixed-config delrin bars we're all fond of are great tools for many reasons, but everyone should still have a t-bar and standard shock mounts in their toolkit if for nothing more than a way to experiment and learn.
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You're getting some good advice that I won't contradict, but I will add that in a narrow club where a lot of the sound is coming from amps on stage, you may want to point INSIDE the stacks. This will increase what your mics hear from on stage, and reduce some of the reflections from the walls. YMMV
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You're getting some good advice that I won't contradict, but I will add that in a narrow club where a lot of the sound is coming from amps on stage, you may want to point INSIDE the stacks. This will increase what your mics hear from on stage, and reduce some of the reflections from the walls. YMMV
Interesting idea. I'll give that a shot myself!
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That is interesting Briansos. Attached, is a picture of the club. There isn't much down the middle, but on either side, there are lots of places to put a mic. It is about 8 feet from where I clip the mics, by the boots, up to the stage. When it gets busy, that 8 feet is packed with people so I am afraid to go any further back as the audience will get picked up.
I am really interested in getting the guitar the most(it's my son), but of course want the whole band to sound great. Vertically, where would you suggest I point the mics in order to pick up the amps?
(http://danieldonato.com/crap/robertsMonitors.png)
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That is definitely a tough spot. If you're clipped there, and that close, I'd just point the mics A/B (i.e., straight ahead, parallel to each other) straight at the center of the stage, and space the mics apart from one another as much as you can. I would angle them up slightly toward the PA stacks, both so you get more vox, and also so you get less crowd.
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Is it possible to get there early and setup your mics on the fans? They are about DFC
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Is it possible to get there early and setup your mics on the fans? They are about DFC
I thought the exact same thing when I saw the pic. It would be the best option UNLESS the fans are actually working :-X
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They just showed a clip of that bar on MNF Countdown on ESPN. The fans were cranked up big time!
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Is it possible to get a stack recording like a foot or so from the stacks ???
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I would probably stand where that guy with the white hair is standing and clip the mikes to a baseball cap.
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If my assumption is true -- that the monitors are used primarily for vocals, with no or minimal reinforcement of instruments -- I'd ignore the monitors almost entirely. Wherever you are, as long as you're not waaaay up close and under the monitors (like stage height), should be fine for capturing the vocals. You're going to pick up most of your sound from the stage, so I'd position myself and / or my mics accordingly to achieve the best direct sound and balance as possible. It looks like the stage is in the corner, on a bit of an angle. I'd probably wear the mics and set up 2nd or 3rd seated person to the left of the gray-haired guy standing up, oriented towards the center of the stage.
Alternatively, you might also consider clamping to what looks like a pole hanging down from the ceiling behind the ceiling fan. Might require some effort to run the cables to a suitable place for your recorder, though, and I don't know if the house will give you the run of the place to do so.
Re the tin canny vocals...how did they sound in the venue? My experience is that for small stages with small monitors, the vocals never sound particularly good, and often produce a tin canny sound.
Challenging space, for sure.