Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Popmarter on February 10, 2013, 08:37:53 AM
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Hi,
I need some advice on how to position the mics when stacktaping.
Tapersposition will be on a balcony, distance around 5m in front of left PA).
I would like to try XY, but I have 2 options, see pictures.
One option is two mics facing eachother on the same level (bit more easier to accomplish (st$%lth).
Second option is the 'true' XY position, which is a bit more hassle.
What would - soundwise - be the best option, or would it not make any real difference?
Thanks in advance.
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Personally I don't think it makes much difference and when I did it, I did same level but with a little space
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I always like the over/under approach.
I like to think of making the "X" with the mic diaphragms as reference.
The other approach always made it seem like the opposing mic was blocking sound...
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I don't see much sense in stack taping XY. I know people say to do this, but I don't find it does much. I think you're better off going A-B and just splitting as far apart as you can so you get a little stereo image.
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Nice looking mics.
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@ all, thanks for the replies.
I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.
I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.
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In your equal-level picture, one mic blocks off a significant amount of sound intended for its partner mic.
There's also a small issue, though, with the arrival times: your intensity-based stereo image would contradict the image provided by the arrival-time differences. When spacing is used, the R-pointing mic needs to be closer to the R-stack than the L-pointing mic, thus ensuring that any signal from the R-stack will be stronger _and_ earlier in the R-pointing mic, thus preventing a clash between the intensity- and arrival time info. I expect you knew all that, but I thought it worthwhile restating.
And why is it such a hassle to get XY...just use one or two thread adaptors as spacers?
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@ all, thanks for the replies.
I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.
I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.
Right, and I'm going to say again - I don't think X-Y will solve that problem for you. If anything, it might make it worse. The theoretical ideas about XY do not, in my experience, translate all that well to recording a PA system in a venue. I've tried it both ways a number of times to reach that conclusion. To achieve the best channel balance, just go dead-on at the stack you're taping. As to the split, I guess it really depends on the exact setup of where you are, but either way, I wouldn't do XY.
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@ all, thanks for the replies.
I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.
I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.
I can't imagine that adding some (and just a little) space between your mics will add to your crowd noise - and will do wonders for the sense of space.
For a stack tape - I would wonder if M/S wouldn't be the ticket?
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In your equal-level picture, one mic blocks off a significant amount of sound intended for its partner mic.
There's also a small issue, though, with the arrival times: your intensity-based stereo image would contradict the image provided by the arrival-time differences. When spacing is used, the R-pointing mic needs to be closer to the R-stack than the L-pointing mic, thus ensuring that any signal from the R-stack will be stronger _and_ earlier in the R-pointing mic, thus preventing a clash between the intensity- and arrival time info. I expect you knew all that, but I thought it worthwhile restating.
And why is it such a hassle to get XY...just use one or two thread adaptors as spacers?
I have read about this arrival-time difference, but I thought it does not matter because 1. I am very close to the source, and 2. because I am recording one PA only. I might be wrong about this.
The PA is (as with most PA) slightly turned right to the center of the room.
In my case I will be pointing at this left PA, does that (in case of A-B, +/-20 cm apart) I have to put the right mic slightly more to the front than the left one?
@all, my idea's about XY have changed a bit now, as most people here do not recommend XY as it does not seem to have any clear advantage. With that in mind (the hassle is: having to set up XY might be a bit to risky (st%^lth)), I will see if I can set the up A/B with a bit more space than 10cm. Thanks a lot so far!
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Any idea how much stage volume you'll get? I've had some success with 1 mic pointed at the PA and 1 mic pointed at the stage. It might not be balanced in volume, but you could adjust it in post.
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I think the XY config. is most beneficial when you want to tighten up the low-end. Even if you are getting crushed by SPL's at 5m, I still recommend spreading the mics of so at least you can produce a stereo image that perhaps could be manipulated in post by panning, eq'ing, etc.
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I have read about this arrival-time difference, but I thought it does not matter because 1. I am very close to the source, and 2. because I am recording one PA only. I might be wrong about this.
The PA is (as with most PA) slightly turned right to the center of the room.
In my case I will be pointing at this left PA, does that (in case of A-B, +/-20 cm apart) I have to put the right mic slightly more to the front than the left one?
I'm more of a 'hanging mics from the roof of a cathedral' classical guy than a ''pointing mics at distorting PA speakers' headbanger :-), so I guess my rather generic advice wasn't so useful.
It might help, though, to have more details about your venue. For example, are you so asymmetrically seated, much closer to the L-stack, that it's not felt worthhile capturing the much weaker R stack? And what's coming out of the stacks, anyway: mono or 'stereo' (pan-potted multi mono) information? Is there much direct sound from the stage?
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I have taped XY in a small bar taping just the left speaker and it turned out well. But the mics were like 1' from the left speaker not 15'
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I once taped Ratdog at the Orpheum in Boston. They put us way back in the last row of under the balcony, so I decided to pack up my gear and just watch the show from somewhere else. Well, one thing led to another and someone handed me a good seat about 10th row way ROC in front of the right stack. So I went (I had 20+ patchers in seconds...)
I used hypers x/y 90 and was very pleased with the tape. Yes the *direct music* was mono, and dead center in my tape, but the steady stereo image of the room and crowd gave a nice image all around.
YMMV, but I think XY is a good choice for what you are doing. And I agree with the others, find a way to have the *capsules* (not necessarily the microphones) aligned perfectly one above the other.
And finally; M/S is X/Y. Whether you run M/S or L/R at the show (even with near coincident and spaced configurations!), it is always a good idea to listen to your pull through a m/s plugin. That's a great way to add ambiance to a dry recording or solve a "hole in the middle" problem. You can always apply EQ and dynamic range processing to M and S separately.
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@all
Thanks, it seems like there are many opinions about this subject. In the meantime I have figured out a way to make an XY-setting or AB rather easy. So easy I can still make the decision when at the gig. If all goes well I will try to record the supportact with a different pattern than the main act. That will give us something to compare.
grts,
popmarter
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@ all, thanks for the replies.
I have taped here earlier with both mics about 10 cm apart facing forward (A-B) but to get the channels more balanced, I have plans to try XY.
I am in doubt wether or not putting the mics further apart (let say 30 cm) would be good. I might pick up some crowdnoise on the left (there are stairs) and again, channelbalance might be tricky.
Right, and I'm going to say again - I don't think X-Y will solve that problem for you. If anything, it might make it worse. The theoretical ideas about XY do not, in my experience, translate all that well to recording a PA system in a venue. I've tried it both ways a number of times to reach that conclusion. To achieve the best channel balance, just go dead-on at the stack you're taping. As to the split, I guess it really depends on the exact setup of where you are, but either way, I wouldn't do XY.
i agree with acidjack.
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@all
Thanks, it seems like there are many opinions about this subject. In the meantime I have figured out a way to make an XY-setting or AB rather easy. So easy I can still make the decision when at the gig. If all goes well I will try to record the supportact with a different pattern than the main act. That will give us something to compare.
grts,
popmarter
if you're running the milabs
at the stack...
I would not recommend this ... but if that's what you want, be sure to engage the 20db pad on the mics or they WILL clip and overload your preamp.
with those mics you be best about 15' to 20' back near the center or at east not right up on the stack.
Edit:
re read the OP
Tapersposition will be on a balcony, distance around 5m in front of left PA).
that will be about 15 feet back, if it's a loud show use the 20 db pad
if you can be center it would sound a bit better or run them spaced by 3 to 4 feet, really.
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I will run the Milabs and yes I will turn on the -12db pad. I have taped the same position few weeks back with the -12db pad not in use (milab > mix-pre-d > m10).
That recording did not distored, but since the mixpre is a hot preamp it was not easy to set the levels. I am sure with the -12db on it will be ok.
Bit in doubt now, wether or not to use the mixpre>m10 combo or go straight into a R44. Any advice on this? (I assume the mixpre can haddle the pressure better but i have no proof.)
Loudness will be most likely the same (rockband). I agreed the Milabs work better on some distance, but I have no real good alternative.
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I will run the Milabs and yes I will turn on the -12db pad. I have taped the same position few weeks back with the -12db pad not in use (milab > mix-pre-d > m10).
That recording did not distored, but since the mixpre is a hot preamp it was not easy to set the levels. I am sure with the -12db on it will be ok.
Bit in doubt now, wether or not to use the mixpre>m10 combo or go straight into a R44. Any advice on this? (I assume the mixpre can haddle the pressure better but i have no proof.)
Loudness will be most likely the same (rockband). I agreed the Milabs work better on some distance, but I have no real good alternative.
I'd go straight into the -44 personally, if you are worried about it. The -44 pres are good and I think they sound good with the Milabs. The MixPre is a nice unit, but if you're already kind of worried about things going right, leave the MixPre at home and have one less thing to worry about.
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Hi,
I am coming back on this subject, as last weekend I taped the show. You can find the result here: http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=439613 (http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=439613)
Attached a crappy picture that will give you an idea about the PA and it's distance from my spot.
With all tips from here in mind, my initial plan was to record the supportact in XY and decide afterwards (between support and main act) if I would leave it or change it. I followed Acidjack's advice to stick with the Milabs>R44 combi (instead of Milabs>Mixpre-D>M10). Very glad I did so!
The -12db switch on the Milabs was ON this time... very wise as the music was loud!
When I arrived at the spot it turned out XY was not possible with the 'creation' I had made. The balcony-floor has a slight edge that was a bit higher than expected. OK, plan B, A-B 20cm apart. Tape it firm and forget about it. Done.
Recording turns out much better that the previous time I was there. I am pleased with it. Anyway, judge for yourself. There are some samples included on Dime.
Thanks to everyone for the advice!
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What is that - a stack of bass scoops?
Looks like old school PA gear...
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Dunno, must be someone here who can identify this ;)
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I see the array on the right - but that is one big stack of bass scoops on the left...odd...maybe not for heavy stuff.
And - this must be some loud stuff - what is that on stage? 2 bassman amps and a 4/6 X 12 cabinet - with 3 twins behind it!
Holy loud!!!
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From all crappy pics, this one might tell a bit more.
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Excellent recording. Am I correct that this is also >:D ? If so, especially nicely done :)
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Thanks. Yes >:D , i did not bother go and ask people. ;)
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As they say, "WELL DONE SIR!"
Glad it worked out for you.