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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Phil Zone on August 25, 2013, 10:33:36 AM
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Hi
What makes a tube mic so great. I know that all best sound is usually tube amps and all that stuff down the line. But does a tube mic really sound that good?
Any opinions
Don't think I'll every have enough money to buy one, but I'd love everyone's opinion.
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harmonic distortion. Read up on even and odd harmonic distortion.
(no particular preference, but a quick search yielded):
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/382595-odd-vs-even-harmonic-distortion-2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound#Harmonic_content_and_distortion
I thought it was RANE, but there was a place that had a fantastic write up of it (and I swear it had that similar cream colored background). Can't find it at the moment though.
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Hi
What makes a tube mic so great. I know that all best sound is usually tube amps and all that stuff down the line. But does a tube mic really sound that good?
Any opinions
Don't think I'll every have enough money to buy one, but I'd love everyone's opinion.
Personally I am not that struck on valve (vacuum tube) microphones as I prefer cleanness and accuracy.
But a good valve mic. can add warmth and a colour that can be very much loved.
So, there is a place for both.
A good valve mic. can be very beneficial for the human voice in many circumstances.
So, it's always worthwhile getting a good one if you like the colour it brings to the recording.
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Hi
What makes a tube mic so great. I know that all best sound is usually tube amps and all that stuff down the line. But does a tube mic really sound that good?
Any opinions
Don't think I'll every have enough money to buy one, but I'd love everyone's opinion.
Tube mics are more than just tubes. You have a transformer as well for matching impedances. Most tube mics dont sound that great unless they are designed properly. Just because a mic is a tube mic does not guarantee a great sound. The best examples of good tube mics are Neumann mics from the 40's and 50's They used a special VF14 tube made by telefunken. These mics sound the best. Mics using the 12ax7 A new designed tube imo dont sound anywhere near as good as the original VF14 tube or retrofitted 13CW4 Nuvistor these use a lower plate voltage of 105v to 110v. Most people prefer the original VF14 Tube. The other popular tube was the 12AY7 or 6072. This tube is used in the ela m 250/251 and C12.
But generally speaking I think part of the magic is the old tubes that were inside them. We simply don't make the same quality of tube that we used to.
If you have a new tube mic with a 12ax7 replacing it with a Nice NOS tube can make a huge difference. Its also very important if you are using some Chinese tube mics that the plate voltage and heater voltages supplies have safety fuses on them in case the cable shorts out or a tube fails. Its also important to maintain and inspect the multi pin cables on tube mics for wear and tear because high voltage is present inside these cables.
I just wanted to share a few tips about thee mics. I do service quite a few of these mics every year. I do like the sound of tube mics but like anything a poor design tube or not will always sound like shit. Compared to a good solid state design. There is a mojo in a tube circuit that is just different than a solid state design and the main difference is the fact that its point to point wired. Not my first choice for capturing live music... But definitely my first choice for vocals. Having used original U47s and Ela M 251 mics in the studio there is no comparison between that and say a Akg 414. There is a glow that comes off these old vintage mics. That you just dont get from anything else.
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> I know that all best sound is usually tube amps ...
Yes, but that's musical instrument amplifiers. You can often make them sound more colorful and interesting by driving them into moderate levels of distortion. Many tube amplifier circuits have a considerable range of power output during which the distortion remains within, say 5 to 10%, and mainly emphasizes the lower, even-order harmonics of the sound (e.g. "soft clipping").
Microphones are another thing, though. Most of us typically record with a stereo pair of microphones that capture the overall sound of a performance--the entire "mix" at once. So any coloration in the microphone (or preamp, or recorder) applies to everything at once. That approach doesn't usually sound very good; it tends to sound like--well, like a distorted recording, actually.
Even for applications such as close-up vocals in a studio, the problem with using overload distortion in a microphone for "color" is that you usually have no way to control it. With guitar and bass amps, you can set the "drive" level (which determines the distortion) somewhat independently from the output level (volume level). Thus you can pre-set the range in which the desired distortion levels will be triggered. But with a microphone, you can't normally do that; the distortion is a simple function of the sound pressure level. I know of only one contemporary tube microphone that lets you move the overload point up or down within the dynamic range the way an instrument amp can. Much more commonly, that kind of arrangement exists in tube mike preamps. See, for example, ART tube preamps--no great shakes in terms of quality, to be sure, but they have the kind of gain controls that I'm talking about, and they've sold fairly well over the years.
Most "vintage" tube microphones weren't designed for close-up recording at screaming volume levels, so their audible overload range begins at a point below the limit of a rock singer's volume range. That, just coincidentally, allows a singer to use the overload range as an "effect" by screaming into the mike. (And that is pretty much how tube condensers got their reputation as studio vocal microphones during the Beatles era.) There also are people who will gladly, for a fee, modify a microphone's circuitry to bring its overload point down into the volume range that people can sing in, so that a singer can drive that microphone into varying degrees of distortion for effect.
Those approaches tend to yield rather specialized microphones that may work well for one person's voice, but not for another person's. And that can be good enough if you can afford what it costs to take that approach. But again, that's all close-up studio recording--spot or soloist-type miking. It's one thing to color a particular element of a recording, such as the bass or the vocals, but quite another one to smear everything with the same distortion. That gets old pretty quickly.
--best regards
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> I know that all best sound is usually tube amps ...
Yes, but that's musical instrument amplifiers. You can often make them sound more colorful and interesting by driving them into moderate levels of distortion. Many tube amplifier circuits have a considerable range of power output during which the distortion remains within, say 5 to 10%, and mainly emphasizes the lower, even-order harmonics of the sound (e.g. "soft clipping").
Microphones are another thing, though. Most of us typically record with a stereo pair of microphones that capture the overall sound of a performance--the entire "mix" at once. So any coloration in the microphone (or preamp, or recorder) applies to everything at once. That approach doesn't usually sound very good; it tends to sound like--well, like a distorted recording, actually.
Even for applications such as close-up vocals in a studio, the problem with using overload distortion in a microphone for "color" is that you usually have no way to control it. With guitar and bass amps, you can set the "drive" level (which determines the distortion) somewhat independently from the output level (volume level). Thus you can pre-set the range in which the desired distortion levels will be triggered. But with a microphone, you can't normally do that; the distortion is a simple function of the sound pressure level. I know of only one contemporary tube microphone that lets you move the overload point up or down within the dynamic range the way an instrument amp can. Much more commonly, that kind of arrangement exists in tube mike preamps. See, for example, ART tube preamps--no great shakes in terms of quality, to be sure, but they have the kind of gain controls that I'm talking about, and they've sold fairly well over the years.
Most "vintage" tube microphones weren't designed for close-up recording at screaming volume levels, so their audible overload range begins at a point below the limit of a rock singer's volume range. That, just coincidentally, allows a singer to use the overload range as an "effect" by screaming into the mike. (And that is pretty much how tube condensers got their reputation as studio vocal microphones during the Beatles era.) There also are people who will gladly, for a fee, modify a microphone's circuitry to bring its overload point down into the volume range that people can sing in, so that a singer can drive that microphone into varying degrees of distortion for effect.
Those approaches tend to yield rather specialized microphones that may work well for one person's voice, but not for another person's. And that can be good enough if you can afford what it costs to take that approach. But again, that's all close-up studio recording--spot or soloist-type miking. It's one thing to color a particular element of a recording, such as the bass or the vocals, but quite another one to smear everything with the same distortion. That gets old pretty quickly.
--best regards
I just want to say as always you are so eloquent in your posts. I wish I could communicate as well as you do. I hope someday we can have a chat about audio. Its pretty rare to meet someone that has as much knowledge as you do. Thanks for sharing and being a part of this community. As far as tube amp distortion measurements.. I was shocked the first time I measured the THD of a tube guitar amp I finished servicing it looked really nice on the scope a nice 1k sine wave.. Until I hocked it up to my computer and analyzed it for distortion. It was over 7 % THD I now know these things are not meant for sonic accuracy more for the "tone" and like you said much of that tone is the distortion they impart on a signal.
Chris
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The Telefunken ELA M 260 are tube mics? I really like the shows that I have heard with these mics as the source. Nice sounding and detailed.
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Busman makes tube mics. Are those any good?
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yes...yes they are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlPWeH6i-vY Love the Busmans!
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The Telefunken ELA M 260 are tube mics? I really like the shows that I have heard with these mics as the source. Nice sounding and detailed.
The reissue uses the EF-732 tube. The original used the vf14
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The Telefunken ELA M 260 are tube mics? I really like the shows that I have heard with these mics as the source. Nice sounding and detailed.
yup me too ;D
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i like just about anything with tubes in it, but i'm not sure i would want to use tube mics to record concerts in "uncontrolled" conditions from a distance. seems risky, but that's probably just me.
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The Telefunken ELA M 260 are tube mics? I really like the shows that I have heard with these mics as the source. Nice sounding and detailed.
The reissue uses the EF-732 tube. The original used the vf14
The original used the ac701 not the vf14 - the vf14 wouldn't fit in the 20mm diameter body
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i like just about anything with tubes in it, but i'm not sure i would want to use tube mics to record concerts in "uncontrolled" conditions from a distance. seems risky, but that's probably just me.
Shit i recorded 4 days at HSMF in the heat and direct sunlight with the telefunkens....so far everything is workin fine. ;D
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The Telefunken ELA M 260 are tube mics? I really like the shows that I have heard with these mics as the source. Nice sounding and detailed.
The reissue uses the EF-732 tube. The original used the vf14
The original used the ac701 not the vf14 - the vf14 wouldn't fit in the 20mm diameter body
You are correct I got the two confused the 261 and the 260 261 used the vf14 the ac701 tube. I realize the vf14 would not fit into the case of the 261 ;) There are also no known substitutes for the original that do not require some modification to the original circuit and it voltage changes. This tube does not have a socket it's hard wired into the circuit.
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Just for fun, I did a recording of my jam band on (almost) ALL tube mics.
We had a pair of Tube mics on my Steinway, Tube mics for Drum O/H, Sax, Upright Bass.
The next session we did ALL FET. The surprise was that the ALL Tube Session sounded muddy
by comparison. I know that the Early Miles/Coltrane Sessions featured a plethora of U-47/67.
And those albums DO sound fantastic!
I was surprised how much cleaner and more detailed the FET tracks were by comparison.
My takeaway was for Lead Vocals (or even Lead Horns) the tubes are sublime.
But for multiple tracks and particularly percussion and piano, my ears preferred 'solid state'.
Thoughts?
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Well, just like other audio gear, there are tube mics and there are tube mics. Some will be much better than others. I assume you weren't using U-47s and U-67s for your recording. It certainly isn't the case that all FET mics will sound better than all tube mics. What mics did you use? I have some first run Groove Tubes tube mics (the US made ones) and a Gefell LD tube mic that are fantastic. I've used (and own) some of the more recent Chinese tube mics that are fairly mediocre. So as with many things in audio, it depends.