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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: whal on October 09, 2013, 06:23:24 PM
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Hello Folks,
Sorry to bother you. I was wondering if I could ask some experienced advice. I've searched but couldn't find the specific answer to my q.
I currently own a Fostex LE/NTG-3 but have been asked to do sound for a small upcoming independent film (my first). I have spoken to a professional who recommended that the Fostex/rode wasn't really up to the job and recommended purchasing a Sound Devices recorder. I was considering upgrading to a 2nd hand sennheiser mkh 416 and sound devices 702 (can't afford TC).
My question is, while it is a substantial mark up in price would a 702/mkh 416 really make a substantially noticeable/marked improvement in sound quality? I know the recorder is of higher build quality and better connection options.
Unfortunately I'm not in the position to rent this equipment.
Thanks for your time.
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Well, having owned an SD 722 from early 2006>summer 2011, I can say that from ALL the gear Ive EVER owned, the SD 722 was BY FAR the nicest piece of gear I have ever used/owned ;) But some people like its preamps and some dont. I, however, LOVED the SD 722s preamps, and ran 480/MBHO>SD 722 and was very happy with the sound. In fact, I sold off all of my preamps back then because I preferred the SD 722s preamps ;)
I have never run Sennheiser mics, but I would DEF say that if you 100% WANT/NEED a recording at the end of a session or night, then its a NO BRAINER to go the SD 7xx route ;) You will always come home with a recording, because they are extremely durable and rugged and work when you need them to ;)
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Congratulations Bean. You didn't mention the Sony M10 or a Rowi clamp in a TS post.
(I keed, I keed)
Bean is right, for location recording, the Sound Devices recorders are industry standard for a reason. Mic choices on the other hand are too dependant on environment to give a one size fits all answer.
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Congratulations Bean. You didn't mention the Sony M10 or a Rowi clamp in a TS post.
(I keed, I keed)
Bean is right, for location recording, the Sound Devices recorders are industry standard for a reason. Mic choices on the other hand are too dependant on environment to give a one size fits all answer.
;D 8) I also didnt mention Schoeps in that post either ;) Im making baby steps but steps nonetheless 8)
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How critical is it that you eek out a little better sound? I actually made that jump (the fostex to a 7 series). I never regretted it, but what I gained wasn't entirely in SQ (but it was noticeable) but also reliability. The SD boxes are quieter in my experience and I thought it was more transparent/glassy for quieter passages, but you're talking about last mile type differences. Unless you're dealing with major dynamic range (e.g. >40db), I think you'll get more bang for buck by going with a better mic first, then the SD box upgrade second (but both will help).
A 702 on the used market will likely set you back about $1350.
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I have owned both the FR2-LE and the 702. The SD is clearly a more impressive, solid, pro piece of gear, but I'd say the audible differences are minute. The difference in the advertised EIN (Equivalent Input Noise) is only a few dB, distortion is well below audible limits for both, and they're both flat 20-to-20, the rest is for cork sniffers.
What will make a huge difference in the final result is the operation of the boom, selection of location, cooperation of the crew. If you've got a quiet spot and a quiet crew and put the mic in the right place, you'll get your sound with your current gear. And if you don't, you won't get the sound with the SD and Senn.
Fran
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Few thoughts...
The Sennheiser K6/ME66 combo may be a cheaper solution to the MHK416, but it will give you a different set of pros/cons. Its a modular mic system, so you can apply it in many ways... but it may not have the performance...
As for the Fostex... Its a nice deck, but ultimately I'd think you'd want something with Time Code (to sync w/ video???) and/or SPDIF input (future growth)...
You could probably get a Sound Devices MP2 (or other) and run that via analog into your Fostex... That would be cheaper that buying a SD7xxx...
Terry
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independent film
(can't afford TC).
Because the purpose is for film, and you mention TC (assuming you meant timecode)
Have you looked into the Tascam HD-P2, possibly even a used or modded unit? I think Busman on this board may still mod these. Used units don't pop-up often but seem very reasonably priced.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404262-REG/Tascam_HD_P2_HD_P2_Portable_Stereo_CF.html
Coaxial SPDIF digital I/O, Time Code in, Video and Word Clock In, Firewire output for seamless digital audio, video and DAW integration
Sample Clock refs include SPDIF, NTSC or PAL Video, LTC and Word; comprehensive SMPTE frame rate support
Timestamps Broadcast WAVE recordings from SMPTE input, chase locks to incoming SMPTE timecode, Video clock input resolves to house clock
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independent film
(can't afford TC).
Because the purpose is for film, and you mention TC (assuming you meant timecode)
Have you looked into the Tascam HD-P2, possibly even a used or modded unit? I think Busman on this board may still mod these. Used units don't pop-up often but seem very reasonably priced.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404262-REG/Tascam_HD_P2_HD_P2_Portable_Stereo_CF.html
Coaxial SPDIF digital I/O, Time Code in, Video and Word Clock In, Firewire output for seamless digital audio, video and DAW integration
Sample Clock refs include SPDIF, NTSC or PAL Video, LTC and Word; comprehensive SMPTE frame rate support
Timestamps Broadcast WAVE recordings from SMPTE input, chase locks to incoming SMPTE timecode, Video clock input resolves to house clock
Forgot ALL ABOUT the Tascam HDP-2 :) Thats a great contender and like Ghenghis mentioned, are a total STEAL used ;) With its TC IN, and a very reliable deck, the HDP-2 might be the clear winner here ;)
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Thank you for all of your responses. Definitely a few things to mull over/consider. I'd definitely be looking to buy used equipment i think, just to get the most bang for buck + I will be going on a few courses before shooting begins (i know there's much to consider in this sometimes dark art aside from the technology).
Interesting that a few of you reported that the differences between the two units in sound quality are minimal. One online test i stumbled upon seemed to indicate a world of difference was here-
http://www.bradlinder.net/2007/10/comparing-sony-pcm-d50-fostex-fr2-le_06.html
However I suspect the difference volume of the recordings seems to be what's going. It's difficult to tell. I also own a DPA 4060 and was planning on buying a second for stereo ambience/nature recordings. Lastly I thought the MKH 416 sounded more natural over my rode in this test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbzNgmrCBQs
Re TIMECODE
I've never used this technology before. In my (probably naive) mind I have it as a luxury time saver feature to avoid having to align all the audio in post but is there more to it that this? My main role with sound has previously been sound design so recording sync is actually new to me. I will investigate the Tascam HD-P2. thank you.
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If you're doing sound for film, I would DEF say that you would want Time Code ;) I myself have NEVER used TC, so Im no help other than stating that if you're doing sound for film, TC is probably somewhat needed. Right guys?!?! I would imagine WITHOUT TC, syncing the audio to the film would be a logistical nightmare ;)
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i'd have thought a trusty clapper board or even hand clap on camera should be enough for a sync point? At the end of the day it was done this way for decades but I'll have to do more research to see if i'm missing something aside from convenience.
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Don't overlook the Fostex FR2 with TC option. While they have been around a long time they are still workhorses and can be found used in the $5-700 range. AES in/out instead of S/PDIF.
What will make a huge difference in the final result is the operation of the boom, selection of location, cooperation of the crew. If you've got a quiet spot and a quiet crew and put the mic in the right place, you'll get your sound with your current gear. And if you don't, you won't get the sound with the SD and Senn.
Fran
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i'd have thought a trusty clapper board or even hand clap on camera should be enough for a sync point? At the end of the day it was done this way for decades but I'll have to do more research to see if i'm missing something aside from convenience.
Sure, that works, especially if your scenes are short enough (e.g. 7min between between claps) so that clock sync differences aren't noticeable and it would just be alignment. If I had the cash, I'd get a TC enabled machine, if I didn't, I'd use a clapper like it's goin' out of style.
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I have both recorders, as well as the MKH416.
Never used the Rode Shotgun.
You will have more locational problems than the quality of the audio!
I used the Fostex a couple of times with clapper slate, camera was Bolex R16 converted to Super16mm with Tobin sync crystal in camera.
Sync was perfect in FinalCutPro.
What camera??
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Maybe grab one of these: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=406889&Q=&is=REG&A=details
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ouch! that's one expensive clapper board! I'm not sure what the camera will be used as i've not met the other crew members yet. I'm hoping to do a good few equipment tests and dry runs before we shoot anything proper. I don't think the director is a big tarkovsky fan or anything so i might be ok without timecode, it would really blow my budget. Indeed, reading some of the comments now i'm just wondering whether it is indeed worth upgrading. it seems like a lot of money for marginal gains. Think I'll keep my eye out for bargains.
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Maybe grab one of these: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=406889&Q=&is=REG&A=details
This one is cheaper... Oh wait...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Clapper-Sound-Activated-Switch/dp/B0000CGKLR
Terry
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That was of the first to pop up on a google search of clapper boards. Then I saw this one (a steal at $2,070): http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/327180-REG/Ambient_Recording_ACD301RF_ACD_301RF_Master_Radio_Slate.html