Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: yug du nord on December 05, 2013, 02:18:57 PM
-
Is there a point when the weather temperature can be too cold for microphones?
Can damage occur from too cold of weather??
Possibly got an outdoor show that could be in the single-digits or negative-degrees Fahrenheit.
Thanks.
-
I've recorded bands in sub freezing temperatures with no problems, but not single digit temps.
I do put hand warmers in my bag when I'm waiting outside for the doors to open in very cold temps. I'll be doing that for moe this weekend since the temp outside will be in single digits.
-
Manufacturers put operating temperature ranges in their spec sheets. I suppose that if it's cold enough, the element in the mic won't respond based on the frequency response chart. There could be a point at which it would be damaged. I had a car door handle break off in my hand one time when it was abnormally cold. If you take something that is supposed to be elastic and make it rigid enough by freezing hard enough, it could break. Ever see a balloon dipped in liquid nitrogen? It shatters like glass.
-
Don't know about mics, but definitely battery life can be significantly reduced in colder weather. I would think that would be your main issue rather than the mics.
-
Is there a point when the weather temperature can be too cold for microphones?
Can damage occur from too cold of weather??
Possibly got an outdoor show that could be in the single-digits or negative-degrees Fahrenheit.
Thanks.
The Sennheiser MKH series have been used happily at both poles - in the Arctic and Antarctic.
What really suffers are batteries - so it's best to have these inside your clothing and run a cable from there to the equipment.
-
I recorded standing on snow. Recording and I am freezing when its snowing. Recorded when it was below zero Wind chill factor. Ski areas in CO have shows in the outdoors and it is cold. Recorder in fanny pack next to my body with preamp only mics exposed and I was running >:D rig most the time so mics had some cover...gear never failed. Hard to change setting with big gloves on though...
-
Thanks for the responses!
I'm mostly concerned about the diaphragms freezing up and breaking or constricting or something crazy... but it sounds like that should not be a concern I guess.
So it should be OK to use my "A" mikes correct??
Or should I play it cautious and use my "B" mikes??
Thanks again!
-
I never really thought much about it when I would do something like that (and never had problems). I recall running video tape in single digits or less at I think two of the early 90's Inaugurals on the Mall (it seems that is always on the coldest day of the year here) back when they still actually had quality performances the hoi polloi could avail themselves of there (now you have to pay a ton of money to see worse but it gets you indoors instead of out). No problem (even with tape, which is what I was worried about failing then).
Now I'm more paranoid.
I think the biggest issue would be to make sure you don't get any incidental condensation anywhere (from the warm to cold change). DATs and video tape cameras would freak out from that shit even when it wasn't cold. Assuming no condensation and everything being babied it should be fine. Part of it may be the M.O. in terms of keeping things like batteries and anything else that can be close and warm.
If I was going to run open at something really brutal I'd probably go B rig. >:D (or opting >:D ) I'd go B rig anyway.
-
Lots of interesting info on this topic: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=161417.msg2029366#msg2029366
Shamelessly quoting myself on the batteries issue:
Yeah, in my experience 1'5V batteries' performance is drastically worse when temperature goes below 5ºC/40F... I wouldn't be able to put a figure on it (10%, 20%, don't know for sure) but I do know that I could record about 10 hours or even more (never actually ran the risk to run out of bat., always changed them before) with my Zoom Q3HD in normal conditions, and only 1-2 hours when it was that cold.
(...)
This is official data by Energizer from their E91 (1.5V, 150-300 miliOhm) batteries:
(http://i45.tinypic.com/vfldtk.png)
So it seems that temperature does indeed have a powerful effect over battery life.
-
Yea Ive only recorded in the snow once[moe at All Good 2002 I *think*], and it came out okayalright ;) But it WASNT single digits and the snow wasnt coming down too hard. I, too, would be worried about condensation and battery life. If youre used to getting 20 hours from say, a Sony M10, then you'll probably only get around 4-5 hours MAX ;)
I record in all kinds of shitty rainstorms and the like, but cold would worry me way more than rain 8)
-
As a former member of Team Southern Wisconsin, I would say that battery life & frostbite on exposed skin are the two most obvious worries!
My coldest recording:
https://archive.org/details/MadisonRally2011-02-21A
-
What temperatures did you record in and what kind of mics did you use?
Other than frostbite to your person, did you notice any difference in your recordings compared to warm weather?
-
Have recorded the snoe.down outdoor set at killington a couple of times and lost one 9v battery prematurely last year and it was not that cold. The battery was wrapped in face cloth with hand warmer. Yes, batteries are the primary concern I would say.
-
One other thing to watch out for with any gear (including cameras): condensation when you bring it all indoors. It's a good idea to let things warm up slowly in a sealed container.
-
As an engineer that deals professionally with material issues and how they can impact equipment functionality, the stock answer is that you operate your gear within the specifications provided by the manufacturer.
Common sense goes a long way to answering this question though. Very low temps do indeed push the limits on what most manufacturers will 'qualify' their equipment to operate safely in. Keep in mind there are other environmental factors besides temperature that can be part of that equation (in my world, the radiation field), but the two main issues are indeed the operating temperature and relative humidity of the local environment. A less prevalent issue, but probably no less important to this particular question, is how long the gear is exposed to the extreme environment. Sometimes gear will be qualified to operate in the extreme environment, but only for a limited amount of time. (Over time, for example, corrosion due to the environment may cause the equipment not to operate properly, but in the initial stages corrosion might not be an issue. Another factor which is time dependent is fatigue...more on fatigue later.)
Applying some common sense to the question, in a cold weather environment I'd be more concerned with moving gear from inside to outside than the other way around...with respect to moisture intrusion, going from liquid to solid is a much larger concern that the reverse. In an extreme hot environment, I'd be concerned with moving gear from outside to inside, but less so than in a cold environment, since there's no potential for a moisture phase change, which can be damaging due to both the expansion and contraction of the moisture from solid to liquid and vice versa, but also the damage that can be caused when solid ice forms inside of gear in the case of accumulated moisure or standing water. Ice accumulation can cause potential for displacement of interrnal components, or perhaps in a worst case scenario to electronics the cracking of circuit boards).
With respect to circuit boards, exterme temperature changes can cause expansion and contraction. If there's no space margin provided to allow for that, bowing of the board can result or again, in a worst case scenario board delamination or cracking. Or course, it could be argued that the inside of your gear will stay warm due to ohmic heating, but my discussion is worst case.
However, with all of that said, I think my main concern in exteme cold would indeed be the mic diaphragms...especailly mylar diaphragms. Even though there's probably not much movement in a mic diaphragm, these things are razor thin, so it wouldn't take much to damage them. The concern I'd have is called high cycle fatigue (think about working a coat hanger to the point that it breaks...each back and forth movement is one cycle). Probably safe to assume diaphragms don't have a high cycle fatigue concern at normal temps. However, what about once you start lowering the temp below manufacturer specs? I really can't say for sure if it happens, but it's definitely conceiveable. If diaphragms do fatigue, over long time periods you could get some degree of diaphragm failure (longer times equals higher fatigue cycles...thus the term high cycle fatigue). I'd think this would be particularly true of mylar diaphragms, which intuitively I'd say become progressively more brittle at lower and lower temperatures. It's probably not as big a concern for metal diaphragms.
The bottom line is...I'm pretty sure that you won't find many manufacturers of electronic equipment that would qualify or warrant the performance of electronic gear for long term functionality below 32F / 0C specifically because of the concern for internal/trapped moisture going solid upon freezing, unless it's specifically designed for those temps.
Personally if faced with the decision, I'd assess my diaphragms and keep mylar out of the extreme cold. Beyond that, I'd probably use my gear outside for short time periods based on the comments people have made here that they haven't experienced issues, but say if I was going to snoe.down and was going to be outside for three straight days, if the weather forecast called for really cold temps, I'd probably consider leaving my best stuff inside.
-
^That's good stuff Steve!!.... thanks to all for the input!
I can't seem to find weather related specs for any mikes.....
I'll probably leave the "A" rig at home.
-
^ To be clear, I have no practical field experience with audio gear suggesting that any of the 'analysis' I provided is reality...everything I wrote is I suppose theoretical based more on a materials science type view, which may or may be reality. I think chances are good that you'd be OK based on what other people have experienced, so leaving everything home is probably the WAY conservative call. But at the same time, I don't think the issues I mentioned are out of the realm of possibility either...and at minimum if you can anticipate the situations where freezing condensation might come into play, plan accordingly (use hand warmers like Chuck suggested, or allow warm up and cool down periods).
As far as not finding operating specs, it's probably no surprise on mics, but I swear I've seen some operating temp range specs on some higher end gear, though doesn't seem like the norm for audio gear, perhaps because manufacturers never contemplated how insane tapers are that we'd tape in rain or snow. ;)
-
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic-University/Technology-Guide/Microphone-Stability.aspx
DPA says these mics continued to meet specifications after being exposed to extreme conditions, but they also say that the materials in these mics were chosen for their similarity in expansion and contraction.
Not sure I want to dunk any of my microphones in a glass of water like their photo. :o
-
Hi Tonedeaf,
The reason to be concerned going from cold to hot would be condensation inside the gear. With the inside of the gear being already cold and going from a likely cold and dry environment into a warmer and likely much more humid environment, you have the perfect conditions for forming condensation in/on the gear. Even small amounts of condensation on a circuit board can cause unexpected results since the condensation causes unintended conductive paths between circuit elements.
Miq