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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Ozpeter on December 20, 2022, 06:42:57 AM
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I've scrolled down the forum a fair way but can't see this one mentioned. Forgive me if I've overlooked an existing topic.
"The ZOOM M2 MicTrak Stereo Microphone and Recorder combines two cardioid microphones in an X/Y position with a quality microSD-compatible field recorder. This all-in-one design makes it a convenient solution and it also includes the ability to record in up to 96 kHz / 32-bit float. The M2 MicTrak was designed to fuse the professional guts and features of the F-Series recorders with the convenience and portable form factor of the Handy Series. This middle road allows the M2 to provide excellent functionality at an attractive price."
https://www.newsshooter.com/2022/12/15/zoom-m2-mictrak-stereo-microphone-recorder/
$199 US - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1737327-REG/zoom_zm2_m2_mictrak_microphone_and.html
And there's an M4 also - https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/mictrak-recorders/mictrak-recorders/m4-mictrak/ - four tracks with timecode. It has built in stereo mic, XLR x 2 inputs, and also seems to have a 3.5mm stereo mic input. This perhaps is the device most likely to be of interest here but it's more expensive than the other two models.
And an M3 for on-camera mounting, which interests me more than the others. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoom-M3-Microphone-Shockmount-Compatible/dp/B0BN4D8GCH
https://zoomcorp.com/en/jp/mictrak-recorders/mictrak-recorders/m3-mictrak/
That also seems to be only $199. There's a YouTube video at https://youtu.be/4A3S1tuq2GQ showing it being used with its post-production width control for pipe organ recording. This I find impressive, except that when it's set to mono, it's actually 120 degree stereo. This could be an error in the video - or a bug in the mic or software which Zoom should have spotted!
"It's just a mic that I happened to have in my pocket, Mr Security Man. I haven't got a recorder with me to connect it to."
I'll leave you to google for other links - or not, if you think it's not in the least interesting!
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Inn terms of the mics, you get what you pay for. Can't vouch for it beyond that.
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I ordered the new 32 Bit Float Zoom M3 MicTrak Stereo Shotgun Microphone and Recorder for my camera since I do concert video. Should be here today.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1737328-REG/zoom_zm3_m3_mictrak_shotgun_microphone.html
They came out with 3 new 32 Bit Float recorders.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/pro-audio/news/zoom-m2-m3-m4-mictrak-microphone-recorder?BI=572&gclid=Cj0KCQiA14WdBhD8ARIsANao07hivdmxcSioQfwV-dbtoqfrSTQO4ZrwYEMhM0aUQ60iTy-fvOhrJIkaAq3bEALw_wcB
https://www.youtube.com/user/datflys
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Inn terms of the mics, you get what you pay for. Can't vouch for it beyond that.
I thought the pipe organ recording was pretty good - certainly nothing unpleasant about it.
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I ordered the new 32 Bit Float Zoom M3 MicTrak Stereo Shotgun Microphone and Recorder for my camera since I do concert video. Should be here today.
Me jealous? Of course not... it's not available here in Australia until February. I could get B&H to ship me one though... I have to say that having started recording using an EMI L2 recorder (with valves) https://reel-reel.com/tape-recorder/emi-l2/ and having once intterviewed Sir Yehudi Menuhin at his home about his days of recording on wax discs - for which I used a HHB Portadat which intrigued him - being able now to buy a one-piece 32 bit float camera mounted mic/recorder does amaze me. I look forward to your feedback in due course!
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Bad review for the M2 & M4. Picks up EMI & bad handling noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wF99pmA3y0
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Bad review for the M2 & M4. Picks up EMI & bad handling noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wF99pmA3y0
Certainly one way to get many views/clicks.
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I did not make the video I'm just sharing the video that I found with pretty important information.
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I did not make the video I'm just sharing the video that I found with pretty important information.
I don't think that comment was directed at you. What annoys me about that guy's videos are that they make all sorts of assertions with limited comparisons and they are at variance with all (that I've seen) other end-user samples and reviews. Why is his different? Why is his the most credible review? But he seems to be surrounded by fan boys who then post adverse comments on the official Zoom channels on the basis of this limited information. There could be a problem. Maybe there isn't, or it's a problem under circumstances which won't normally arise. For instance his assertion that the H1N has low handling noise by comparison is nonsense- the H1N is notorious for handling noise. In fact, when it comes down to it, all these small devices suffer from it as it's just about impossible to decouple the small, llight capsules from the body.
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What annoys me about that guy's videos are that they make all sorts of assertions with limited comparisons and they are at variance with all (that I've seen) other end-user samples and reviews. Why is his different?
If you watch the video there is no denying that these recorders produce so much interference that they are unusable "in his use case" which looks to be his home.
Don't know why you have so much beef with that dude but based on his video alone I wouldn't buy one of these.
No denying what's in the RX output file he showed.
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M4 has interesting potential for a super simple 4-channel mic-array consisting of a spaced-pair + coincident-center-pair, which in my experience is the most useful 4-channel microphone array for tapers.
I'd love to see someone plug two rigid extension tube podium-style microphones (the kind with a rigid section ~25 to 50cm or so long with XLR at one end and short gooseneck with microphone at the other end) directly into the XLRs on opposite sides and mount the entire thing on a clamp or stand, eliminating mic-bar and wiring. The mics need to be light enough that the latching XLR connection can support them, but seems reasonable to me. May want to use a section of coat-hanger wire to connect the two and reduce strain on the XLRs with wider spreads.
Visual aid below. In place of mic-cables, plug in two rigid-extension-tube podium mics.
(https://zoomcorp.com/media/original_images/Hero_2_eM4T9xn.png.768x0_q60_focal_area-855%2C825%2C1589%2C1650.png)
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(https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/seminar-podium-260nw-83281513.jpg)
^except extending out sideways rather than upward.
Available in various lengths:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDaheZ6ZES9k-UZoVp0rBLQK6tf_Ba0mcYug&usqp=CAU)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTq-a5SXbAqbsshjCqIl3Rf3MllvCvhgemIyRes7WqNVovUD_iAIDOhXr58G31kpYHH2ziyBCAKqH5BSyWZ3Q8MGgNRtJYAf82MoqsqF_QGM2X-a-NfZQ)
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There's some very interesting moments in this video about the M3 - it's the first time I've heard a viable voice recording made 100 feet away from the speaker! The end-user reviewer has had no problems with RF breakthrough, by the way.
https://youtu.be/_ZChtqgCit8
I think I won't be able to avoid the temptation any longer - if only to graduate from my first portable valve-equipped recorder with 7 minutes battery life (60 years ago??!), to a 32 bit float digital recorder with a good quality MS mic built in. Wow, things have changed...
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RF interference has been confirmed by Zoom and a batch of M3 devices has been recalled. If the last 4 digits of the serial number are in the range 0302 - 1096, you can request a free replacement. It seems that this was caused by an assembly problem during early production. Stuff happens - personally I wouldn't let this put me off buying the product now. I'm still waiting for my pre-order to arrive.
Units of the M2 and M4 are also affected but I don't have the serial numbers to hand right now.
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At last my Zoom M3 has arrived. First impressions -
- It feels very light and has an air about it of something which should be treated with care. But mics should always be treated with care. As for lightness, this is a plus point in the video sphere. When doing video I might well mount it on my camera gimbal, and in that context, lightness and balance is very important.
- It is heavier than my Sennheiser stereo video mic but that only has one AA battery.
- The dead cat for the Sennheiser fits onto the Zoom, just about, and that will save me a few dollars.
- Changing the battery of the Zoom will be awkward when it is mounted on its suspension clip, but I'll probably not keep taking it on and off the clip for fear of stressing it.
- The mic can't be fitted to the clip upside down, for dangling above musicians. That means I would have to reverse left and right when editing but I guess that's no big deal.
- It's weird to have a recorder with no metering and no time display. But in the context of this device, meters and displays really are not required. There are buttons to set stereo width (it records a left right file and an MS undecoded file at the same time) and low cut, and these do have tiny but bright LED indicators. Likewise the power and record buttons are well lit.
- If the record button is held down to start recording, the system is in lock mode. To stop recording, long press the record button again.
- There's a simple but not-obvious routine to format the memory card but the case is marked to show the method.
- Only the most recent file can be played. This is perhaps the biggest issue for me (but I knew about it in advance). And I don't think there's a fast forward or back method. But I think a whole new approach is required with this device in my world of recording acoustic (classical mostly) music. Instead of turning up for a concert an hour before rehearsal time, setting up mics, cabling back to the control room while somehow avoiding tripping hazards, setting up the recorder and monitoring system and so on, with this device it would be perfectly possible to arrive five minutes early, plonk down a stand with the mic on top, press record, and come back from the nearest bar when the concert is finished.
Anyway, next step is to actually record something with it. Right now I don't have any music gigs lined up but I might just do some initial tests using my Tannoy speakers as a source in my 'studio' and comparing with other well known devices. I am hoping that Zoom have designed this with the 32 bit float recorder being matched with a reasonable preamp (dual in fact) and with mic capsules that don't let the back end down - leading to an integrated whole that performs perhaps better than could be expected from individual components to the same value. Otherwise, the point is lost. I will check for obvious signs of RF interference but given that the initial batch were withdrawn and replaced, and it's been some months off the market while the problems were sorted, I would be very surprised if they had still got that wrong.
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Briefly, I've done some very quick tests in front of the Tannoys. Results are encouraging. Looking at the spectral display in Audition, I can't see anything amiss in terms of whistles at set frequencies. Noise level is low (well, in practical terms I can't hear any but my ears are old...).
The thing that made me really sit up was the very high level available in the cans (DT100) for monitoring and playback. Monitoring is present as soon as you turn it on (there's no record pause button). But I have a tiny suspicion that there may be some kind of limiter at work on the headphone output. When replayed direct from the memory card, I don't hear anything of the kind.
Frequency response - well, in such a crude test it's going to be messed up by the room acoustics. But the top end is very clear and punchy. Bottom end seems fine but I haven't yet tested that with a really revealing track. Stereo image is very well defined indeed (when set to 120 degrees). Recording between the speakers, then putting it right up against one of them to cause it to "overload', causes no problems when normalised, as you'd expect from 32 bit float.
More crude tests to follow (including testing against the H2N with is the other recorder I have that I would describe as "a mic that records") but I really do need to try it on actual live acoustic music. And maybe some traffic noise for the bottom end!
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Something I've noticed on samples on YouTube, and now confirmed with my M3, is that the stereo image at the rear gets inverted - speaking towards the mic from the rear left actually plays back on the rear right, etc. But I think I read somewhere that this is a known consequence of MS mic techniques. Maybe it's more pronounced because the centre mic is a shotgun type. At the dead centre at the back, there's a distinct reduction in signal but that could be useful in many situations. I've heard a shotgun-based MS recording from the rear of a hall, up in the gallery, and the stereo image and apparent closeness of the recording was beyond expectation.
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First test- a domestic recording showing spectral analysis display set to show a 140dB range to ensure nothing untoward is lurking in the noise, and later I've shown frequency response and phase. Looks good to me. Beware, it gets loud. But even though I recorded a spinning washing machinie with a tumble drier on top of it close up, it still needed +12dB approx of normalisation, so Zoom have clearly configured it to only need post processing gain reduction if the incoming audio was really loud.
https://youtu.be/zNzRcAY13FE
I don't know how badly YouTube mangles the original audio, but obviously the display shown comes from the original audio flle, unprocessed apart from normalising.
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Monitoring is present as soon as you turn it on (there's no record pause button).
Zoom F8 is the same with regard to monitoring. Effectively in rec/pause as soon as turned on, although you can pause after you start recording. Presumably other current Zoom recorders work similarly.
Something I've noticed on samples on YouTube, and now confirmed with my M3, is that the stereo image at the rear gets inverted - speaking towards the mic from the rear left actually plays back on the rear right, etc. But I think I read somewhere that this is a known consequence of MS mic techniques. Maybe it's more pronounced because the centre mic is a shotgun type. At the dead centre at the back, there's a distinct reduction in signal but that could be useful in many situations.
The rear image flip you describe is a consequence of the polar pattern of the microphones used in X/Y, and of the polar pattern of the Mid microphone in M/S in combination with the Mid/Side ratio used. The classic example of this is Blumlein configuration crossed fig-8's, and the result is the same if set up in the classic manner as X/Y, or as M/S. With a Blumlein stereo pair, all sound sources located behind the microphone position will be picked up with the same sensitivity as everything in front, but upon playback the positional imaging of everything in back will be flipped Right/Left in comparison to everything in front. Substituting supercard/hypercardioids that have a less sensitive "rear-lobe" than fig-8's, the same image flipping occurs for sources in back, but they will be picked up with reduced sensitivity. With Mid/Side using a cardioid Mid and a 50/50 M/S ratio, the decoded output will be similar to X/Y using supercardioids. Substituting a supercardioid Mid the output will be similar to X/Y hypercardioids.
I don't know the pickup pattern of the capsule Zoom is using in the shotgun Mid here, but I presume its a supercardioid or cardioid. Its the interference tube that defines it as being a shotgun rather than the polar pattern of the capsule behind the interference tube, but typically something supercard-ish is used as that pattern minimizes sensitivity for everything off-axis more than any other pattern and thus provides the best starting point for creating a maximally exclusive "shotgun" design.
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Wow, thanks for that tech explanation. I have used MS mics as the basis of all my serious recordings since 1984 but I remain slightly hazy about the underlying theory! My go-to pair for classical recording was a Sennheiser MKH 30 and 40 (if I recall the models correctly), and that rear image reversal phenomenon was never very apparent, but of course when recording classical musicians in front, and the room reverb behind, there wasn't much to reveal any such problem. Now, with the Zoom mic that weighs a few grams and is thus easy to hand hold and speak into at odd angles, the issue is more manifest (and as you explain, the capsules used would be relevant).
It grieves me that these days I have almost no chance of recording anything, let alone a classical performance in a good acoustic, but I am hopeful that before the end of the year I will be able to get some opportunities to discover whether the M3 is a breakthrough or a disaster! Probably somewhere in between.
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The good news is that someone has tried the M3 for recording an orchestra with violin soloist. The bad news is that he placed the mic somewhere towards the back of the hall, and afterwards applied compression and / or limiting, eq, and heaven knows what else. So I'm not sure it's the test I was hoping to see (and, of course, hear). (Also the violin soloist seems to be having some issues but it looks like it was a rehearsal and maybe she wasn't warmed up, to be fair).
https://youtu.be/qLEMRTx8n5M?si=541vZs85EciiUyQ2&t=1489
Perhaps more impressive when it comes to a demonstration of dynamic range is this video where the reviewer plays his trumpet straight into it at a variety of dynamics. This does seem to show that not only is the 32 bit float recorder section doing what it should, but also the capsules and preamps seem comfortable with the considerable dynamic range.
https://youtu.be/qanMWDrx0wM?si=nNEDelbFLlU9Xibj
Sadly my present circumstances do not allow me to get out and do my own tests, but one day that will happen (otherwise, why did I buy the mic?!)
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I'd love to see someone plug two rigid extension tube podium-style microphones (the kind with a rigid section ~25 to 50cm or so long with XLR at one end and short gooseneck with microphone at the other end) directly into the XLRs on opposite sides and mount the entire thing on a clamp or stand, eliminating mic-bar and wiring. The mics need to be light enough that the latching XLR connection can support them, but seems reasonable to me. May want to use a section of coat-hanger wire to connect the two and reduce strain on the XLRs with wider spreads.
Is there a way to use a supercardioid for this purpose?
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/instrument/4099-instrument-microphone
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I recently got a MicTrak M2 stereo mic and was wondering if anyone has found a decent windscreen or dead rat for this mic.
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I repurposed one from another mic. Sadly I still haven't given mine a test run yet. I must stop buying stuff that I don't have time to use...
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Sorry, Colin, I misread M2 for M3.
But... I really am tempted to add the M2 to my collection of grossly underused recording devices. Here in AU it's going for around half recommended price for the next few days, and I can't resist a bargain. But looking through the manual of it, there seems to be much more to it than meets the eye. There's onboard normalisation after recording if desired, and export to other bit depths onboard too. And it can be used as a 32 bit float USB-C mic too (or 24 bit). Much of the functionality seems based on the Zoom F3 except you don't get to choose the source - it's the inbuilt mics in stereo or mono, and that's it. But Zoom have a serious amount of experience with small inexpensive mic capsules, and there would be no point at all in building a 32 bit float device with totally crap mics, so... OF course it's far from a stealth device, proclaming itself to be a recording mic as loud as it can, but in my uses that's not a problem.
Watch this space...
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I'd love to see someone plug two rigid extension tube podium-style microphones (the kind with a rigid section ~25 to 50cm or so long with XLR at one end and short gooseneck with microphone at the other end) directly into the XLRs on opposite sides and mount the entire thing on a clamp or stand, eliminating mic-bar and wiring. The mics need to be light enough that the latching XLR connection can support them, but seems reasonable to me. May want to use a section of coat-hanger wire to connect the two and reduce strain on the XLRs with wider spreads.
Is there a way to use a supercardioid for this purpose?
https://www.dpamicrophones.com/instrument/4099-instrument-microphone
Sure. A coincident pair in the center, in this case the internal mics of the recorder, works very nicely between either omnis or a directional pair (or both). Choice of which mostly depends on the room, the acoustics, how far back the recording position. Generally a pair of omnis are best spaced wider (something 3' apart minimum is good), where as a near-spaced directional pair needn't be spaced as far (something like 2' apart is good) if angled +/- 45 degrees apart.
I mostly use DPA 4098H supercards for this in my arrays, which are choir mics intended for hanging, similar to 4099.
If using both omnis and near-spaced directionals on either side of a coincident center pair (recording 6 channels), space the directional pair 2' apart angled +/- 45 degrees and increase the minimum spacing of the omnis to 4'.
In either case, 5' or 6' between omnis is usually better than the minimum spacing I suggest above.
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Here is my first test of the Zoom M2 Mictrak. It is simply a recording of the silence in my suburban garden after midnight, massively amplified by normalising. There was some very light rain on the garden umbrella, barely audible out there at the time, but on this recording it's now really loud. Far away you can hear the rumble of a distant motorway. At the end there's a short recording of me speaking quietly in the same environment on a separately normalised file, to give some idea of how quiet it really was.
My elderly ears can't hear any system noise at all, despite the massive digital gain. But maybe yours can? Anyway, I am hugely impressed with this odd looking device - especially at half price! Sadly, the first batch produced had a fault which caused RF breakthrough to spoil the sound, and its reputation was badly damaged. Subsequent production runs (after that one was withdrawn and money refunded) seem fine. Certainly I couldn't hear anything amiss. I'll be doing a few more tests in the next couple of days, I hope, and will post the links here in due course.
https://youtu.be/Fb1r11dYpUY?si=wAutkTTvWA3TtDpM
[Edit - I just checked and the price I paid was about the typical price of a Zoom H1N. I mean, I can't complain, can I?!]
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Today I made a very quick video which included some testing of the M2. The supplied wind muff does help with wind noise but it really needs something more effective out of doors. Of course for recording music indoors, that's less of a problem (apart from strong air conditioning in a hall!). Right at the end I included a spur of the moment recording of a dog barking at me as I passed its garden gate. It's a quite good demo of what 32 bit float is all about.
I just checked the F3 user manual and that device seems to lack some of the neat features of the M2 - perhaps the M2 is aimed at a more amateur market which needs help! In particular, the ability to export in 24 or 16 bits, to create a normalised copy internally, and to play back at a normalised replay level (which is really, really handy).
https://youtu.be/UGMiVgoUerU
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And here's another one showing the Zoom M2 being used as a USB-C mic connected to the Pocket 3 camera. In this mode it has some handy features such as changeable output level, mute button, replay via headphones of what has been recorded on the external device, and choice of 24 bit or 32 bit float output to the recorder. Sadly the latter can't be recorded by the Pocket 3. But I wonder whether the F3 accepts USB-C mics with 32 bit float output? A 32 bit float USB-C mic at this price point has to be pretty rare.
https://youtu.be/p6I4rtF_dWc?si=m7DpAXvif0xyjJ-z
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On Christmas Day the weather forcast warns me that we will have the most severe thunderstorms for many years. Oh great. Well, nevermind - I will take the M2 with me to the family party and see if I can record some good 32 bit float low frequency test material while I chomp on the turkey. ;D
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According to Zoom these devices should share the F series preamps, which should be good thing.
The functionality of the M4 is interesting to me as it offers both XLR and mini-jack input and perhaps even passable build-in mics(?). The missing mini-jack stereo input of the F3 makes it a no-go for me.
However, the design layout of the M4 is not my cup of tea, to say the least, but I will set up some price alerts should a lower price make this device more appealing.
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I just came across this video where the sound comes from the Zoom M3 Mictrak device (it says). If nothing else it's an ideal test of 32 bit float, as the location sound gets pretty loud aqnd peaky and personally it's the kind of unpredicatable scenario where level setting is best avoided. I'd suggest watching the last five minutes or so to evaluate the sound - or of course watch the whole thing if interested! It certainly seems to have no trouble with the high frequencies and the stereo image is good and wide. The drums in use seem to be relatively small so the amount of LF on offer may have been a bit too modest to really test that aspect.
https://youtu.be/ihA2xNKDxPY?si=MDiEiL9iChOeDeFl
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I am resurrecting this thread to report that at last I have had a chance to use the Zoom M3 with its 32 bit float stereo sound in a real world scenario. I attended a local festival which included market stalls, stage performances, food avenue, and fire sculpture, which began in mid afternoon and ended at 9pm. I used a DJI Pocket 3 camera whose audio capabilities are pretty good for a tiny camera, but I attached with some difficulty the Zoom M3 in order to be able to forget about level setting. Levels varied considerably, from scenes at some distance in the festival field, to standing right by the stage during live performances including a group of three drummers.
I realise that this is hardly a stealth device, but for occassions when stealth is not required, it's very light and simple to use. In essence, it has a power button, a record toggle button, and that's about it. Not even a display.
I was generally pleased with the sound quality, and the stereo image is excellent (and is recorded in both A/B and M/S formats so you can play with the width afterwards). I was careful about how it was mounted to the video rig but I experienced no handling noise issues.
Apart from the fiddly task of lining up the audio and video when editing, the biggest problem was dynamic range. Most video that you see on YouTube has audio which has been captured via automatic gain control, and viewers would be quite disconcerted to hear a video with full dynamic range. And let's face it, a substantial majority of viewers are using a phone where dynamic range means a lot of stuff being inaudible. I decided that I would normalise the audio at the outset, clip by clip, but perhaps this was a mistake. I then struggled to bring down the level of the performances, and bring up the level of the quiet bits, because the editing software I used didn't have enough control range for the task. I then started over from scratch and used audio which I had pre-levelled using Reaper, although it was still a struggle. I used a limiter VST to help matters, but I was careful that it was set only to catch transient peaks.
So you might wonder, what was the point of using 32 bit float audio and then squashing the dynamic range like that? Well, the chief benefit was knowing that clipping at the outset would be very unlikely even close to the stage PA speakers. At one point there is some clipping audible, but that could be heard with my own ears when recording, in other words, the canned music they used was clipped at the outset just for one item. And I had a complete choice over final levels in the quietness of my 'studio' back home.
However, normalising 32 bit float audio from a live recording means that the most trivial and instantaneous peak may dictate the overall level of the result. For instance, someone clapping enthusiastically near to the mic might cause a higher transient level than the performance audio. In non 32 bit float recordings, if that got clipped it wouldn't matter much, because the transient was too short for the clip to be heard. So the use of a limiter might actually be almost required in video post production, depending on the nature of the material. But at least there's a choice, rather than being stuck with the wrong level at the outset.
Here's a link to the edited video - which is rather long but it has chapters which could enable you to skip to the drummers, where the audio is perhaps the most interesting.
https://youtu.be/KCT_izLIJqQ
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This morning was sunny and pleasantly warm with little wind, so I grabbed a video camera and the Zoom M2 MicTrak device and drove to a park about 15 minutes drive from my house at the edge of the Melbourne suburbs. The last half of the drive is along single track dead straight roads where I passed I think one other vehicle coming the other way in that time. In other words, once you get to the park there's no audible background suburban traffic rumble. There's the odd small plane high overhead but that provides a bit of audible context.
Once there I was really struck by the silence. I spend too much time in town! The sound was punctuated by distant bird calls, and I walked down to the stream eventually and recorded the water, together with the sounds of a dog slurping it up and splashing around a bit. The dog and its owner seemed to be the only other people in the whole park.
Normalising the files afterwards seemed to lift their level by about 30 to 40dB. Before normalising they weren't much more than a thin line in the Audition display. Despite the massive gain, I can't hear anything in the way of troublesome system noise. I do hear the sounds of suburbia maybe 10km away! The tiny sounds of nature are perfectly clear (and most of them I could not hear when I was at the location). Even a few little flies buzzing around. Frequency response seem well balanced. Possibly I accidentally rolled off the top end a bit by covering the mic with two wind muffs just to be sure...
Really, the Zoom M2 seems to be a remarkably good device at the price. Sure, there are all sorts of devices which not only have mics but have inputs too, but if you add the cost of the device and the cost of better-than-fitted mics, you don't end up with much of a bargain. Nor do you end up with system with no dangling wires. And as I've have said before - often! - the Zoom would not release a recorder with the guts of the F3, and with built in mics creating an end-to-end predefined system, if the mics were crap. Otherwise it would be pointless. IMHO.
Here's the result. My YouTube channel is not monetized so I don't get any money from suggesting people might view it.
https://youtu.be/sP47wGM7jsU?si=YcYAXN0Y1yLXCUT9
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Thanks Peter. I watched the first 10minutes.
That is impressive from a recorder from which you wouldn't expect much, judging from it's appearance - at least in my opinion.
It could have been fun if you had also brought the H1 XLR and your Superlux - for comparison.
I am sure you are aware that the quietness of the scene you describe doesn't come across in the actual video.
The raised levels makes even the flies and the falling leafs sound deafeningly loud, but it is an excellent demonstration of the capabilities of the recorder/mics!
So much that I think I will get the M4 when I go to Japan in a few months, provided I can find confirmation that it uses the same microphones as the M2.
At the current price of 22,000 JPY, it crazy inexpensive for a 4ch recorder with XLR, seemingly good build-in mics and F3 preamps.
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Indeed, if I hadn't raised the levels bigtime then the video might have been mistaken for one without sound! I am so unused to really quiet places...
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Ozpeter, thanks for the video and the recording with the M2. The M2 certainly hasn't been a recorder I've spent much time considering, but the audio in this video sounds quite nice.
The dog lapping up the water out of the lake/stream (?) sounded really clear. I know the camera you have probably has a wide angle lens, so it's not quite clear how far away you were.
With the gain being bumped up so much, how did you not have handling noise, especially when you were walking? Were the camera and M2 connected somehow or were you holding them in your hands?
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Ozpeter, thanks for the video and the recording with the M2. The M2 certainly hasn't been a recorder I've spent much time considering, but the audio in this video sounds quite nice.
The dog lapping up the water out of the lake/stream (?) sounded really clear. I know the camera you have probably has a wide angle lens, so it's not quite clear how far away you were.
With the gain being bumped up so much, how did you not have handling noise, especially when you were walking? Were the camera and M2 connected somehow or were you holding them in your hands?
Cheers, glad you found it interesting. Yes, I was surprised that the dog lapping was so clear. I wouldn't care to estimate the distance - put it this way, the dog noise is clearer on the recording than it was with my own ears at the time!
I was pretty careful about handling noise. I used a springy mount for the mic which was on a compact rig I devised for it and the camera, which included an extra handle to help maintain grip without too much noise. And I was careful! The section of the video where the level was closest to "normal" was when I walked through that gate near the start, which made a very helpful high pitched squeak followed by a kind of ring which decayed to silence. You may notice that there's almost no background ambience in that short clip, but that is simply because the gain was raised very little due to the loudness of the gate.
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The M4 price appears to be in free-fall in Japan - last week I picked one up for 14,900 yen in Tokyo (equivalent of US$ 105 at the current rate).
At that price it was impossible to resist.
I am guessing it is about to be discontinued.
I will be using it for field recording, video sound (it has build-in time code generator) and maybe a little open taping so the large somewhat awkward size will hopefully not be a big issue.
The M4 shares the very decent stereo mics of the M2, the qualities of which Ozpeter already demonstrated above.
It also allows for two XLR inputs utilising F series preamps, so they are expected to be good.
I did some close proximity recordings of very loud trains running over a metal bridge across Tama River (Kawazaki), both with the build in stereo mics and a DPA 4060, and both came out very good and detailed to my ears.
Also more subtle recordings of frogs along Jinzu River (Toyama) came out very good.
I plan occasionally to use the stereo 3.5mm input for my Clippys, but have not tested that combination yet.
According to the manual, the 3.5mm input utilise a dual ADC (although not F-series), but rather those used by the build in mics. I don't think that will be a problem as the ADC's seem to serve those mics very well.
The operation is very simple, and the start-up is super fast with a 128GB MicroSD card - much much faster than my Roland R-07 with a 32GB card!
Aside from failing to understand the overall design choices of the device itself, my only point of irritation so far is the many button presses required if I want to normalise a recording and export to 24bit in the device.
If you mostly do hour long taping, the above probably wouldn't be an issue, but I often do many short recordings and can't always wait until I have a PC available to bulk convert.
With that said, the actual processing of the relatively small files I have recorded so far has been very quick, approximately 3 sec to export and normalise a 3 minute recording - it is just all the menu navigation it takes to get there that irritates me.
Anyway, it is my understanding that some of the Zoom F-series recorders can't even normalise and export to 24bit, so I shouldn't complain, especially considering the current price of the M4.
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I got my m2 for $128 as a factory refurb on eBay. It was a brand new unit. For what it is it is pretty amazing. I would have probably killed for one 45 years ago. I have used it several times as a backup and once as a primary recorder for concerts. Many cheap microphone are lacking in bass but not this one. Dead quiet in self noise too.
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Niels, do you have any audio samples to share?
I remember ozpeter did an expensive recording session with several different recorders and the mictrak ones sounded good (to me). This is the post: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=206569.0
Good to hear your results are similar and you sure got a great price on the m4!
Does the mic cage act as any kind of windscreen? Lately it's in very windy in my city so recording the ambiences have been very difficult. Finding a windscreen to cover the m4 may be a challenge, but I didn't look up the specs of the size of it.
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Niels, do you have any audio samples to share?
I remember ozpeter did an expensive recording session with several different recorders and the mictrak ones sounded good (to me).
I'll see if I can pull some samples if I can find something that gives meaning out of context when I have time.
I am certainly not going through the massive effort of Ozpeter - but grateful he had the patience.
Does the mic cage act as any kind of windscreen? ... Finding a windscreen to cover the m4 may be a challenge, but I didn't look up the specs of the size of it.
A windscreen with a 1-1,5cm fur layer was included with the recorder. That is all I had and what I used in Japan.
It will not be sufficient in more windy situations, but seems adequate outside in light breezy situations.
On some review videos, I have seen the M4 grill covered with something that looked more like a hairless sock to my eyes, so I am not sure if Zoom has changed this included accessory during production. I'd imagine the sock I saw would work more like a pop filter than an actual windscreen.
I checked just now, and the Zoom WSU-1 Universal furry windscreen I had lying around fits perfectly over the grill/cage.
I have not tried it outside yet on the M4, but it has worked fine with other microphones as long as it can be mounted so it doesn't directly touch the microphones (which is no problem on the M4 due to the grill/cage).
https://zoomcorp.com/en/de/accessories/accessory-packs-and-windscreens/wsu-1/
Guttmann also sells German made dedicated windscreens for the M4. Their products usually have a good price/performance ratio (and they will custom make a screen if your mic/recorder isn't on the list).
https://microphone-windscreen.com/windscreens-for-audio-recorders/zoom/864/microphone-windscreen-for-zoom-m4-mictrak?c=23
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There are a few very critical high ranking M4 review videos on YouTube which demonstrates severe RF interference.
It has later been said that this was fixed by Zoom although I haven't seen reference to the source.
Therefore; I did of course check my M4 sample (SN: C87008689) to verify.
Recordings around a microwave, a TV set receiving Free to Air signals, an active WiFi access-point, a smartphone receiving a call - No interference at all was recorded.
Another critical point of a video was the alleged tight tolerances of the XLR connectors (a reviewer claimed he couldn't pull out his no-name XLR cables and had to dismantle the device).
I tried all my cables, Neutrix branded, non branded and some very cheap free-bees - 11 different cables.
None got stuck - or even had what I would call an overly tight fit.
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Because of that initial problem, indeed the first reviews were very critical - some reviewers seemed relish the chance to be very critical! - and those reviews are still online, although I think I have left comments in all of them to say that the problem was fixed. The upside is that the recorders can now be bought quite often at really low prices. But I do feel they should now have a good reputation.
Here is the notification from Zoom about the RF problem, in which they state the affected serial numbers.
https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/news/mictrak_notice/
I'm very glad that yours is ok! Mine too. Thanks for putting that on record. (pun not intended...)
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I chopped my circa 45 minute outdoor festival video using the Zoom M3 down to 4 minutes, designed to help interested people get some idea of what it sounds like.
https://youtu.be/FBBiJ-qZwRo?si=8EbRLD7_t8feHy_p
My channel is not monetized so watching it won't make me any money!
Finding good examples of audio from this device is remarkably hard - many reviews don't include any samples, or the simply record passing trains. At least in this video you hear crowds, amplifed music from a PA system (relevant to this forum), and amplified drummers. Yes, I would love to record a symphony orchestra with it but those days seem to have gone...
Overall I can't believe that you could buy a better system for the current $199.99 price - you'd need a 32 bit float dual ADC F series recorder, plus a decent MS stereo shotgun mic plugged into it. Probably twice the price at least?
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With the Zoom M4 under $150 on fleabay now I decided to give one a try. So far I am very happy I did. No RF issues and much less handling noise than I expected. As soon as I got it I started taking it apart. I needed to see what the mic setup was like under the cover. Not what I expected. Here is a video if anyone cares. Zoom M4 onboard mics exposed. (https://youtu.be/m4ZFEJHft1s) I Will make a few more with the M4 soon.
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I have to say that those who have reported purchase of the M4 (and in general the M2 & M3) seem to be very happy with these devices, which makes them a very worthwhile bargain at the moment, unless the form factor just wouldn't work for you.
As for mic suspensions, I think the problem with all such devices is that as the capsules weigh hardly anything, and therefore they have no inertia, a functioning suspension between the capsule and the body would have to be incredibly flexible and probably therefore not very robust. I don't recall any hand held recorder being famous for its low handling noise, although some get complained about more than others - low end devices possibly being used by people not used to simply having to keep their hand immobile relative to the device. The shiny surface on the M series devices was intended to reduce handling noise by being slippery, but of course then you have to be careful not to drop it....
Anyway I look forward to your next video!
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With the Zoom M4 under $150 on fleabay now I decided to give one a try. So far I am very happy I did. No RF issues and much less handling noise than I expected. As soon as I got it I started taking it apart. I needed to see what the mic setup was like under the cover. Not what I expected. Here is a video if anyone cares. Zoom M4 onboard mics exposed. (https://youtu.be/m4ZFEJHft1s) I Will make a few more with the M4 soon.
Thanks for the video. It has actually convinced me to pick up a cheap M4 on eBay. I’ve also read reports online that the capsules are the same as those used in the Sony D100 which is encouraging.
I really don’t like the form factor of this at all. I dislike the design of most Zoom products, but this one looks very odd. I will probably have to hide it in a case when I use it!
I expect the wind noise will be a problem, as it is with my Sony D100, but if I use omni mics simultaneously in the XLR inputs I can imagine this unit being a very useful addition to my collection.
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I’ve also read reports online that the capsules are the same as those used in the Sony D100 which is encouraging.
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Adrian, do you recall the source of that claim? The capsules on the M4 should be fairly easy to ID as they are basically mounted naked under the removable grille. I have never seen a D100 under the hood, though.
Many design choices of the M4 are a bit puzzling. I thought the rationale behind them would become apparent when I started using it, but not so far.
Still a killer recorder for what I paid - but not for stealth.
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Adrian, do you recall the source of that claim? The capsules on the M4 should be fairly easy to ID as they are basically mounted naked under the removable grille. I have never seen a D100 under the hood, though.
I first read the claim made in the comments in this video. A video that also helped me decide to buy one, the low noise stereo capabilities of the M4 and built in mics seem to be on a par with the D100.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WjUcZYVfNJQ
I read the claim made elsewhere but have been unable to find that.
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Regarding the form factor of the M4; the M2 and M3 are of course just mics that record. And that's what they look like (well, some types and brands look like that). A plus of the design is that if used for live recording on a stand, the audience just see a mic but not a glowing display or flashing LEDs. The M4 follows the same rationale - a mic that records - but with the option of connecting external mics, as a second use case. I think there are other mics that record out there from some years back and they have a similar form factor - but no inputs.
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Both M2 and M3 makes sense. The ting with the M4 is the XLR input placement and the fact it has TimeCode intended for video. It is not suited for mounting on a video camera nor for putting in a bag (with mounted xlr mics).
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I'm waiting for the ebay seller to ship out the M4 I ordered earlier this week; hopefully I'll have it a week from today.
The video above of the birds flying around is a nice soundscape. I wouldn't have thought the flutter of their wings would be so noticeable/audible.
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I’ve also read reports online that the capsules are the same as those used in the Sony D100 which is encouraging.
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Adrian, do you recall the source of that claim? The capsules on the M4 should be fairly easy to ID as they are basically mounted naked under the removable grille. I have never seen a D100 under the hood, though.
Many design choices of the M4 are a bit puzzling. I thought the rationale behind them would become apparent when I started using it, but not so far.
Still a killer recorder for what I paid - but not for stealth.
The capsules are not easy to see once the cover is off. They are inside a cage that is glued into the rubber suspension mounts. I could not see the numbers or letters on the capsules without taking them apart. https://youtu.be/m4ZFEJHft1s
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OK. I'll consider the Sony D100 capsule theory as speculations for now.
It is not unlikely - of course.
The Sony M10 recorder used Primo EM172 so it is fair to assume that the D100 probably also used some commonly available capsules.
The M4 is likely utilising common parts as well.
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The capsules are not easy to see once the cover is off.
I see. I thought I was seeing a capsule, not a cage in your video.
Did you measure the diameter?
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The capsules are not easy to see once the cover is off.
I see. I thought I was seeing a capsule, not a cage in your video.
Did you measure the diameter?
They are between 12-15mm. Can't tell for sure because of the cage. I am leaning towards 14.6mm. That is the same size used in the H5 Studio. Primo makes a few 14.6mm caps.
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It could be the Primo EM200 then https://www.micbooster.com/datasheets/EM200.pdf
Very similar specs to those of the M4 published by Zoom
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This page reports the mics on the sony d100 are 15mm diameter, but that may also include the housing.
https://www.creativefieldrecording.com/2017/01/18/sony-pcm-d100-review-one-year-later/#Microphones
I'm not really interested in buying the d100, but there are several for sale sub $1000: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=sony+pcm-d100
A few years ago they were harder to find an quite pricey
Back to talking about zoom m2/3/4...
Niels, were you able to put together some recordings you did back in May?
I did some close proximity recordings of very loud trains running over a metal bridge across Tama River (Kawazaki), both with the build in stereo mics and a DPA 4060, and both came out very good and detailed to my ears.
Also more subtle recordings of frogs along Jinzu River (Toyama) came out very good.
Regarding the form factor, without having it in hand, I can't say for sure how it all works out. Most recorders to have the xlr connectors adjacent to one another and not on opposite sides of the body, but this fella seems to have the right idea: https://old.reddit.com/r/fieldrecording/comments/1lo5fks/my_setup_with_zoom_m4_great_recorder/
I see Ozpeter made a similar comment in the post as well.
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Niels, were you able to put together some recordings you did back in May?
Not really something presentable, but I could share a 2 min. sniplet directly out of the recorder with the build in mics that could be intersting for some.
It is taken from a static position and holds the range from frogs singing on the riverbed to trains running past nearby - and some city rumble in the background .
It is recorded by Tama River (Kawasaki, Tokyo metropolitan area) so a city recording - not nature but with a good range.
Lo-cut 80Hz was engaged. Normalized and exported to 24bit WAV in the recorder.
I don't usually share stuff publicly on the web so I don't know where to put it (30MB). Maybe I could put it on Google Drive? But I will need to space sometime, so it wouldn't be permanent. Any other ideas?
but this fella seems to have the right idea: https://old.reddit.com/r/fieldrecording/comments/1lo5fks/my_setup_with_zoom_m4_great_recorder/
I saw that. It is a good setup for some types of field recording.
A little ironic as Zoom is pitching the M4 to musicians and filmmakers. I guess that if placed on a stand on stage and used to record while filming as they show in their marketing, it is probably perfectly fine.
I really just needed a robust substitute for my iRig PreHD to get more use out of my XLR microphones, and the M4 does fulfils that purpose, if not perfectly, then perfectly given the price.
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It could be the Primo EM200 then https://www.micbooster.com/datasheets/EM200.pdf
Very similar specs to those of the M4 published by Zoom
I did wonder that, but I have also wondered previously if the Sony D100 uses those capsules.
They are very decent capsules, and not cheap. If the Zoom M4 does use them it means that for the price I’ve paid on eBay I’ve almost got the recorder for nothing!
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It could be the Primo EM200 then https://www.micbooster.com/datasheets/EM200.pdf
Very similar specs to those of the M4 published by Zoom
I did wonder that, but I have also wondered previously if the Sony D100 uses those capsules.
They are very decent capsules, and not cheap. If the Zoom M4 does use them it means that for the price I’ve paid on eBay I’ve almost got the recorder for nothing!
I’m pretty sure the Tascam Portacapture X8 uses the Primo EM200 capsules (I’ve had the mic heads apart and see telltale markings), and can say with almost complete certainty that the Sony PCM-D100 does not use Primo EM200 capsules. I think Sony either made their own capsules, or has custom units made to their spec. I own both the X8 and D100, and comparison recordings are both outstandingly good, but slightly different.
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Niels, you could consider a file sharing site like https://wetransfer.com/
The file won't be available forever, but it's free, fast, and I don't think an account is needed.
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Wetransfer only allows 3 days for free, so I will rather make it available through Google Drive - I can leave it up longer than that.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBghGGQCk3xBPNUEyeeHFOeYgKoTlUzP/view?usp=sharing
Let me know if there are access issues.
Description of the recording: Frog chirping, crows and trains crossing river.
Location: Tama River. Kawasaki city, Japan.
Google Map:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1FHDGCOvlv0ctvsDuJ4JriONc5dlkM3s&usp=sharing
Recorder Zoom M4 Mictrak on a table tripod placed on the ground (concrete) at the purple indicator on the map.
Internal mics used.
Manufactures included wind protection was used.
Lo-cut set to 80Hz
Recorder points towards the riverbank (along the red line on the map) where I heard frogs (circa 10 meters away) - See exact location on linked map above.
40 meters further away from the frogs is a train bridge (the loudest train on the recording)
Additional two train bridges are located 120 meters further up stream from the first bridge (the other trains on the recording).
300m behind me (opposite of the direction the recorder is pointing) is a busy 6 car lane bridge.
Weather: Sunny 29°C with a very light breeze towards the recorder
The recording was normalized and exported to 24bit in the recorder. No other processing.
Comments: The trains sounds a little louder in the right channel because of the direction the recorder was pointed.
Don't know if this is of use to anyone.
Field recording examples are very difficult to evaluate without good knowledge of the properties of the location.
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Wetransfer only allows 3 days for free, so I will rather make it available through Google Drive - I can leave it up longer than that.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cBghGGQCk3xBPNUEyeeHFOeYgKoTlUzP/view?usp=sharing
Let me know if there are access issues.
Description of the recording: Frog chirping, crows and trains crossing river.
Location: Tama River. Kawasaki city, Japan.
I’m quite impressed with that, especially considering it’s a budget recorder with internal microphones.
I look forward to doing some comparisons with my Sony D100.
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My Zoom M4 MicTrak recorder arrived yesterday and I’ve spent today doing some comparison recordings alongside my Sony D100.
I have to say that I am really impressed with the Zoom M4. It holds up really well in comparison to the D100, and you would have to pay four times as much on a used one. If I was to listen to the recordings blind I don’t think I would be able to distinguish between them, although the M4 seems a bit less vulnerable to wind noise.
I still hate the form factor though, and the shiny plastic. The advantage of this, and the low cost, is that I am going to feel a lot less bothered about getting it scuffed and damaged so imagine it will get a lot of use.
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My Zoom M4 MicTrak recorder arrived yesterday and I’ve spent today doing some comparison recordings alongside my Sony D100.
I have to say that I am really impressed with the Zoom M4. It holds up really well in comparison to the D100, and you would have to pay four times as much on a used one. If I was to listen to the recordings blind I don’t think I would be able to distinguish between them, although the M4 seems a bit less vulnerable to wind noise.
I still hate the form factor though, and the shiny plastic. The advantage of this, and the low cost, is that I am going to feel a lot less bothered about getting it scuffed and damaged so imagine it will get a lot of use.
Yes, I am finding the M4 way better than expected. I am almost positive the M4 and the H5 Studio share the same mic capsules.
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Shiny plastic is intended to reduce handling noise. I deliberately used the word "intended"! But I can understand reservations about its appearance and form factor. Well, just close your eyes and enjoy the audio...
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Shiny plastic is intended to reduce handling noise.
That is Zoom's way of spinning their problem with the matte "rubber" surface finish going sticky. The handling noise on the M4 does not qualify as "better" than any other handheld recorder I have used.
But if one can incorporate the unit's form factor into one's workflow, then I don't think this recorder will disappoint.
At this point, my greatest gripe with the M4 is that normalisation/export to 24bit has to be done on each individual file. Which is a non-issue for those who do that outside the device or only have to do a few.
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It’s quite a breezy day here today, so just spent a couple of hours comparing all the handhelds currently in my ownership. The Zoom M4 and Sony M10 were the only ones that could produce usable recordings, and the latter are omni mics so not comparable really.
I’m getting to be really impressed with the M4. I guess the good wind performance is due to the cage, sort of like a mini baby ball gag.
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I got this dead kitten https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CWYRFMKZ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1 from
Amazon. I recorded an all acoustic stage all day long with my M2 on a very breezy day with no wind noise. For what
it is and what it costs the M2 is pretty amazing. I played it back over headphones for some of the performers and
they couldn't believe how good it sounded and a few said they were going to buy one. It's great for a run and gun
situation with minimal hassle.
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I got this dead kitten https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CWYRFMKZ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1 from
Amazon. I recorded an all acoustic stage all day long with my M2 on a very breezy day with no wind noise. For what
it is and what it costs the M2 is pretty amazing. I played it back over headphones for some of the performers and
they couldn't believe how good it sounded and a few said they were going to buy one. It's great for a run and gun
situation with minimal hassle.
I assume the M2 has the same capsules as the M4 and arranged in a similar way to that described in the video provided by ICatchSounds?
If it does then the M2 is being sold at about the same price as buying the capsules alone!
I’m now seriously considering buying the M2 as well.
The dead cat from my Sony D100 fits my M4 perfectly. Since a breezy day was unable to create wind rumble in the M4 I’ve just been holding it in front of a fan and still not been able to create rumble to destroy the recording … just the noise of a fan.
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I guess the M2 (and M3) simply have to have good capsules, as otherwise there would be no point to using them, as no other input is provided. And as I've probably said before, going to the lengths of equipping them with F series preamps and dual ADCs would be pointless if fed from crap capsules. And apart from the actual sound, the 135dB SPL rating is pretty good too. I just wish I had more opportunities to actually use them!
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I guess the M2 (and M3) simply have to have good capsules, as otherwise there would be no point to using them, as no other input is provided. And as I've probably said before, going to the lengths of equipping them with F series preamps and dual ADCs would be pointless if fed from crap capsules. And apart from the actual sound, the 135dB SPL rating is pretty good too. I just wish I had more opportunities to actually use them!
It shouldn’t be a surprise that the quality of the capsules used are good for the reasons you give, and my initial use has resulted in some good quality recordings.
What has really surprised me is their performance in windy conditions. All the cardioid mics I’ve used have been terrible in windy conditions, and I’ve spent a fortune on dead cats and wind protection. This is not related to quality since even my Sennheiser 8040 mics are defeated by the slightest breeze unless I hide them in an expensive blimp.
Yet it seems that currently for £99 I can buy an M2 that sounds as good as my Sony D100 without any wind noise issues. Due to all the negative initial reviews I managed to get an M4 for just £130 with all that plus the extra flexibility.
I would often postpone a hike and recording session because it was too breezy, now I’m looking forward to trying the M4 out in the field with the addition of two pluggy mics on the side.
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And as I've probably said before, going to the lengths of equipping them with F series preamps and dual ADCs would be pointless if fed from crap capsules.
I don't think the M2 & M3 have F series preamps. I have only seen F series preamps mentioned by Zoom in relation to the XLR input on the M4.
But regardless, your point about crap capsules makes sense.
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Hmm. Vendors of the M2 mention F series internals (eg B&H, quoted below) though that doesn't appear on the actual Zoom publicity. However, the vendor mentions are a bit obscure - eg..
"The M2 MicTrak is designed to fuse the professional guts and features of the F-Series recorders with the convenience and portable form factor of the Handy Series. "
"Dual AD converter circuits, derived from the F-Series, make manual input gain adjustment unnecessary "
Interesting B&H use exactly the same wording in their M3 and M4 blurb.
So - who can tell. Just leave me with my dream that I have a couple of F series recorders for a fraction of the price! :)
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Some considerations for the m2/m3 mic recorders...
Neither one has a mic input of any kind. It would have been nice to have 1/8" input on both of the recorders, but Zoom didn't want to include that.
The m2 does not have a 1/4-20 thread to mount it on a tripod. You will need to use the supplied mic holder or something else.
I think the battery compartment on the m2/m4 is quite clever to work with the shape of both recorders.
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A good-to-know piece of info related to Normalisation and 16/24bit conversion - applicable for the M4 but possibly also the M2:
If you connect the recorder in File Transfer mode to your computer or remove the SD card to listen to any of the tracks while they are still on the SD card, you will NOT be able to put the card back in the M4 and normalise or export those specific tracks to 16/24bit in the device.
The M4 will think the file is modified outside the device and refuse to proceed.
The manual does state that you can only use the Normalise and Export functions on un-edited files produced by the M4.
When you listen to the track via the PC, the computer will write to the file - probably just "last opened date/time", but that is apparently enough to be considered "edited".
In other words: If you plan to normalise/convert to 16/24bit in the device, don't listen to the file on the card with another device before doing so.
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Thank for taking the trouble to pass that on - I didn't know about it.
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A good-to-know piece of info related to Normalisation and 16/24bit conversion - applicable for the M4 but possibly also the M2:
If you connect the recorder in File Transfer mode to your computer or remove the SD card to listen to any of the tracks while they are still on the SD card, you will NOT be able to put the card back in the M4 and normalise or export those specific tracks to 16/24bit in the device.
The M4 will think the file is modified outside the device and refuse to proceed.
The manual does state that you can only use the Normalise and Export functions on un-edited files produced by the M4.
When you listen to the track via the PC, the computer will write to the file - probably just "last opened date/time", but that is apparently enough to be considered "edited".
In other words: If you plan to normalise/convert to 16/24bit in the device, don't listen to the file on the card with another device before doing so.
I guess taking out the SD card and setting the read-only switch on it should prevent the OS to write to it. If the OS properly obeys the switch position, that is…
Edit: stupid me! Micro SD doesn’t have such a switch! But maybe when inserting it in an adapter that does have such a switch??
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Edit: stupid me! Micro SD doesn’t have such a switch! But maybe when inserting it in an adapter that does have such a switch??
Yes. True - there are ways to get around it if you are aware of the behaviour of the recorder.
I had made a lot (~25) of short 2-5min recordings and needed to export/normalise one specific file. Instead of navigating the slow filesystem of the recorder, I thought I could more easily identify the relevant file by connecting the M4 to my laptop via USB-C and browse the recordings that way.
I thought I would give a quick listen to make sure I had found the right one, but then ... well...
I haven't really established a workflow for converting and normalising 32bit files to 24bit. I do most of my processing in GarageBand (Mac) which seemingly treats 32bit as 24bit and therefore doesn't allow me to recover clipping parts.
I need to find a simple tool to normalise and convert a 32bit float to 24bit with as little fuss as possible on my Mac - so I can proceed in GarageBand from there.
Maybe the subject of another thread?
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Perhaps this?
https://github.com/slhck/ffmpeg-normalize
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Perhaps this?
https://github.com/slhck/ffmpeg-normalize
I gave this try, just out of curiosity. And yes, it works...
D:\hoi\test>ffmpeg-normalize clipping_32bit.wav -v -nt peak -ext wav
INFO: Normalizing file clipping_32bit.wav (1 of 1)
INFO: Running first pass astats filter for stream 0
INFO: Running second pass for clipping_32bit.wav
INFO: Adjusting stream 0 by -54.664590000000004 dB to reach -23.0
INFO: Normalized file written to normalized\clipping_32bit.wav
You could also use Audacity, which is available for Mac... It is free and does the job well.
Also, you could use just the ffmpeg command line tool in this way:
Step 1: Determine the peak amplitude
ffmpeg -i clipping_32bit_input.wav -filter_complex "ebur128=peak=true" -f null -
...
[Parsed_ebur128_0 @ 000001ce620b1280] Summary:
Integrated loudness:
I: -7.1 LUFS
Threshold: -19.1 LUFS
Loudness range:
LRA: 20.2 LU
Threshold: -29.1 LUFS
LRA low: -22.8 LUFS
LRA high: -2.6 LUFS
True peak:
Peak: 31.7 dBFS
It tells the true peak of the input file is 31.7 (which is well above 0dB!)
Step 2: Applying gain
As the peak is 31.7, we need to apply a gain of -32 to assure all samples will be < 0dB:
ffmpeg -i clipping_32bit_input.wav -af "volume=-32dB" -c:a pcm_f32le output_normalized.wav
(The -c:a pcm_f32le option is needed to prevent the file is internally converted to 16 bit before applying the gain, as that would result in chopped-off peaks)
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I gave this try, just out of curiosity. And yes, it works...
You could also use Audacity, which is available for Mac... It is free and does the job well.
Also, you could use just the ffmpeg command line tool in this way:
Thanks for the suggestions @rattasean and @TheJez.
I am not a complete stranger to command line apps, but it is 25 years ago I last worked with linux/unix prompts. I am not sure if my aging- and blood cloth challenged brain can reenter that state-of-mind again, so I'll probably give Audacity a try first :-)
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One feature i don't see available on the m4 would be to link two units together so you can have eight channels of audio.
There is a remote port, but it's smaller than 3.5mm, and even if you had a cable to connect to another m4, there's nothing in the menu to determine which is master/slave.
I remember the edirol r44 allowed you to link two recorders together, and sound devices probably have some way to do that as well.
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One feature i don't see available on the m4 would be to link two units together so you can have eight channels of audio.
There is a remote port, but it's smaller than 3.5mm, and even if you had a cable to connect to another m4, there's nothing in the menu to determine which is master/slave.
I remember the edirol r44 allowed you to link two recorders together, and sound devices probably have some way to do that as well.
Time code is not precise enough for that?
The deck allows jam sync with other units (or being the controller).
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I considered that, but didn't give it much thought as I don't know much about timecode.
If both units are synced, does that mean you need to begin recording simultaneously on both units?
Time code may work well enough in the 32 fp world, since there are no levels to adjust.
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Has anyone had issues with the text for the buttons rubbing off on their m4?
On the front, the only labels that are present are for the transport controls. The left and right labels are also gone.
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I gave this try, just out of curiosity. And yes, it works...
You could also use Audacity, which is available for Mac... It is free and does the job well.
Also, you could use just the ffmpeg command line tool in this way:
Thanks for the suggestions @rattasean and @TheJez.
I am not a complete stranger to command line apps, but it is 25 years ago I last worked with linux/unix prompts. I am not sure if my aging- and blood cloth challenged brain can reenter that state-of-mind again, so I'll probably give Audacity a try first :-)
In addition to Audacity, you could take a look at Ocenaudio: https://www.ocenaudio.com/download
I first heard about it several years ago, but well after audacity. I'm not sure if it's open source, but it's a free application that you may want to try out.
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I considered that, but didn't give it much thought as I don't know much about timecode.
If both units are synced, does that mean you need to begin recording simultaneously on both units?
Timecode is intended for video, and I do not know what challenges it may involve if using it for audio only - if the sync is precise enough for that pourpose and what app best to use to combine audio only.
The principle is simple. The M4 has a timecode generator but can also follow other time code generators - from other manufactures as well. One is master and rest are jammed/synced to the master - in the case of the M4 - with a cable at the start of a session (cable is not needed after the initial jam/sync).
When jammed they can run without connection to each other with a drift of less than 0.5 frame per 24 hours (=1/60 second if framerate is 1/30 FPS).
Video/film productions will usually jam morning and mid-day after lunchbreak - just to make sure all units are still running.
Timecode is embedded in metadata of the WAV file (and/or soundtrack of the Video file)
You don't have to press record at the same time on all devices, but you can only synchronise the parts of the recordings with overlapping TC - of course.
For video, synchronisation is fairly simple, you basically just dump all your files, including the videofiles. An application like DaVinci Resolve will do all the synchronisation automatically for you. Don't know if this works with only audio files.
Has anyone had issues with the text for the buttons rubbing off on their m4?
Not yet - but I hear it will happen.
Same thing happened with my Roland R-07 in 3-4 months from purchase - I returned it to be fixed under warranty. They kept it for 2.5 month and eventually sent me a new unit!?
The print on the new one disappeared as fast as on the old - and I just printed some labels with a Brother P-Touch label printer.
Guess I will do the same with the M4 when the time comes.
In addition to Audacity, you could take a look at Ocenaudio.
Wow! Thanks. It looks promising. I love it has a spectrogram.
Wish they were transparent about ownership and funding of the ongoing development. I'm always a little suspicious about freeware. But it looks great and I will give it a try.
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Ocenaudio - I think I tried that years ago, but it doesn't seem to be installed here now - thanks for the reminder, downloading now!
[Edited to add that I love it to bits after less than five minutes with it! Goodbye Audition (well, mostly). Very easy to use, all sorts of tools I haven't even envisaged before, and - free. Though frankly it's that good I may well for once actually donate.]
And - I really, really admire those of you who are doing so much recording that the labels are coming off your buttons. All of my current devices, indeed even the old ones, look... pristine and underused. Sigh...
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I seem to recall I first used Ocenaudio ~10 years ago! I made my very first small donation to the project just now; probably should have done it sooner.
Glad to hear it will work out for you, Peter! It;'s very easy to make recordings with these nice modern recorders, but if the apps people use suck, they're less likely to do anything with the recordings, and they'll just 'rot' away.
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I just spent about 3 hours editing a video for which I had recorded the sound separate from the video. Lots of clips needing to be carefully hand synced. I put the video into a new folder and the audio into a subdirectory of that folder. I then decided to close the video editor and use Ocenaudio to raise the level of the audio clips (which the video editor would not do, long story). When I raised the level of the first file, something weird seemed to happen to the file name of the file in the audio folder. So I undid what I had done Ctrl/z - and the whole audio folder just disappeared. Gone. It took another hour or more to get the audio off the recorder again and then reinsert each clip into the video editor, lining it up as best I could as there was now no way to properly sync it (another long story). Moral - if you use Ocenaudio, make sure you have the whole directory you are working in backed up. Or - don't use it. In 50 years of computing I've never seen a whole directory deleted by a program.
And now, back to the Zoom M series...
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I just spent about 3 hours editing a video for which I had recorded the sound separate from the video. Lots of clips needing to be carefully hand synced. I put the video into a new folder and the audio into a subdirectory of that folder. I then decided to close the video editor and use Ocenaudio to raise the level of the audio clips (which the video editor would not do, long story). When I raised the level of the first file, something weird seemed to happen to the file name of the file in the audio folder. So I undid what I had done Ctrl/z - and the whole audio folder just disappeared. Gone. It took another hour or more to get the audio off the recorder again and then reinsert each clip into the video editor, lining it up as best I could as there was now no way to properly sync it (another long story). Moral - if you use Ocenaudio, make sure you have the whole directory you are working in backed up. Or - don't use it. In 50 years of computing I've never seen a whole directory deleted by a program.
Oh my, that's really bad indeed...
So it seems we have roughly three options for a GUI application:
1) Use a very ugly free tool that gets the job done (Audacity)
2) Use a beautiful free tool that makes you loose everything you have (Ocenaudio)
3) Spend a lot of money on a tool that looks beautiful and gets the job done (Audition & friends)
It now becomes very tempting to make a sexist joke about this, so let's not do that... ;D
This does make my fingers itch and write some software for this, just for the fun of it. Normalizing is one of the easiest things you can do on audio files, regardless if it's 16/24/32bfp, so it amazes me that there are still tools around that won't handle 32bfp properly for this.
And now, back to the Zoom M series...
Yeah, right, sorry... :headphones:
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Regarding missing files - obviously something happened, but without ways to reproduce the issue, we're left to only speculate what caused the issues.
A quick test i did was open a file in Ocenaudio, rename it in my file explorer, and go back to Ocenaudio, which the app knew the file wasn't there.
I did notice when I went back into Ocenaudio, i was advised the file was not available and I can save as | close | keep as new. If you were not presented with any of these options, I suspect something went seriously wrong, perhaps at the OS level.
---------------------------
Warning
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Warning
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The file for the sound that was at C:\Users\taper\YouTube\RunningAway (2).mp4 has disappeared. The document has previously unsaved changes. Do you want to keep as new, save or close the sound?
---------------------------
Save As... Keep as New Close
---------------------------
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Regarding missing files - obviously something happened, but without ways to reproduce the issue, we're left to only speculate what caused the issues.
Sadly I can't reliably say exactly what I did. But whatever it was, a whole folder shouldn't disappear just like that. I was definitely just working on one file. I can imagine that if did that to a folder containing other folders of files, one could lose a mass of files and days or even weeks of work. And yes, having backups on removable drives is the insurance policy - which is good practice anyway. You can guess what I will be doing later this morning... Better to do backups than have a program get one's own back up! (Sorry for the joke...)
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Zoom is quite explicit that the 2 XLR/TRS inputs in the M4 use F-Series preamps. Is it possible that its built in mics do not?
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Zoom is quite explicit that the 2 XLR/TRS inputs in the M4 use F-Series preamps. Is it possible that its built in mics do not?
They don’t say they do so I would assume they don’t.
However, the mics perform very well so they have not just grabbed some random preamp from the handy recorder series.
I haven’t purchased a XLR to 3.5mm adapter so I haven’t had a chance to compare 3.5 and XLR inputs with the same microphones.
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Zoom is quite explicit that the 2 XLR/TRS inputs in the M4 use F-Series preamps. Is it possible that its built in mics do not?
I initially thought this was an odd question, but then I remembered that my MixPre 3ii doesn’t share the Kashmir preamps on the TRS inputs, and it’s actually noticeable. This is one of the disappointing features of the MixPre, and together with only 2.5v PIP has come to annoy me since I want to use TRS inputs a lot.
What makes me think that the M4 might use the same F-Series preamps for the mics is that I have used them a lot and recorded some very quiet scenes with no more noticeable noise than using the XLR inputs.
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The Zoom M2 claims F series and dual ADCs and it only has mics, no inputs. Likewise the M3 of course. So it would surprise me if the M4 didn't share that feature.
[Edited to add that of the three devices, Zoom's publicity only specifically mentions F series preamps for the M4. Retailers talk about F series components in the M2 and M3 and some seem to focus on the ADCs without being categorical about the preamps. So - it's a bit hard to be totally certain - at the end of the day I guess it's a matter of using one's ears to judge, if possible.]
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Zoom is quite explicit that the 2 XLR/TRS inputs in the M4 use F-Series preamps. Is it possible that its built in mics do not?
They don’t say they do so I would assume they don’t.
However, the mics perform very well so they have not just grabbed some random preamp from the handy recorder series.
I haven’t purchased a XLR to 3.5mm adapter so I haven’t had a chance to compare 3.5 and XLR inputs with the same microphones.
Neils is probably correct. While the built-in mics may not share the F-Series preamps with the XLR inputs, the preamps they do use seem to be quite good.