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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: voltronic on February 02, 2023, 09:21:19 PM
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A friend just alerted me to this new product:
https://www.konos-sound.com (https://www.konos-sound.com)
The website is pretty light on details, but there are some specs in this PDF:
https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/6194a85a1d8e150086168cd1/61a976f0d7312b0ba972fc0a_Dotterel%20Konos%20Datasheet%20-%20FINAL.pdf (https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/6194a85a1d8e150086168cd1/61a976f0d7312b0ba972fc0a_Dotterel%20Konos%20Datasheet%20-%20FINAL.pdf)
Significant financial backing:
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2203/S00510/dotterel-raises-3m-for-sonic-breakthrough-tech-konos-microphone.htm (https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU2203/S00510/dotterel-raises-3m-for-sonic-breakthrough-tech-konos-microphone.htm)
Here's more on MEMS tech:
https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/mems-microphones/mems-microphones-for-consumer/ (https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/sensor/mems-microphones/mems-microphones-for-consumer/)
https://www.mouser.com/applications/mems-microphones/ (https://www.mouser.com/applications/mems-microphones/)
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/an-introduction-to-beamforming-with-mems-microphones (https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/an-introduction-to-beamforming-with-mems-microphones)
Trew Audio LA is demoing the Konos at an open house next Monday, if anyone is in the neighborhood:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeWIdVvwIPPtPmZq9ma7LXDRMRry_rO4XQmGKEsiSBW6UzB3w/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeWIdVvwIPPtPmZq9ma7LXDRMRry_rO4XQmGKEsiSBW6UzB3w/viewform)
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Schoeps has offered a solution for this application for a few years now. If I were in the market, I would certainly want to test-drive the Konos against the SuperCMIT.
https://schoeps.de/en/products/shotgun-microphones/cmit-series/supercmit.html (https://schoeps.de/en/products/shotgun-microphones/cmit-series/supercmit.html)
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Really cool design concept. Thanks.
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I wonder what the effective order is in relation to its sensitivity pattern selections, the quality of the off-axis nulling, how well artifacts are suppressed, how noisy, how natural it sounds..
Interesting choice in that it appears to provide simple analog output only. Sort of like an old-school LD condenser mic that provides variable pattern via a required outboard power supply in that regard - a cool option for simple use, yet unfortunate if that means the pattern cannot be altered after the recording has been made. Maybe USB output connection provides that capability.
The second output (labeled null, equating to everything outside of the primary output pattern) is one of the more interesting things. I've thought about that in regard to ambisonic recordings, but don't know of it being implemented in any ambisonic tools. It sort of falls into my philosophy of recording sound from all directions collectively, via discrete segments designed to combine gracefully, as a useful way of deconstructing the acoustic upon recording with sufficient degrees of freedom that it can be reconstructed in a perceptually convincing way for improved reproduction. Similar to the OMT implementation of a rear facing microphone channel, but differs from ambisonics and my broader approach in not being innately spatialized in a stereo or multichannel sense. A good test of this will be if summing the primary and null outputs produces a true omni.. and if that sounds identical across all three choices of pattern.
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Wow, mounted on a UAV (drone) this could be amazing for capturing public events.
It can cancel out the sound of the drone itself with its multiple element "beamforming" type tech.
edit:
haha just listened to the demo. No way is this good for music. Good for rescuing people though!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQsaxvfpBNk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQsaxvfpBNk)
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That outdoor drone application likely represents something of an ideal acoustic scenario for it. The free-space, non-reverberant acoustic allows for clear focused pickup of on the guy on the ground and more complete off-axis rejection of the drone's noise. Both would be more difficult in a reverberant space, especially at a more significant distance.
Appears the boom to which the microphone is mounted might be somewhat longer than the minimum length needed to extend the microphone outside of the rotor-wash, but hard to tell.
Interesting to watch the on-going evolution in application of MEMS microphone elements. Not sure if their specs are really up to music recording yet, but maybe. At least one TS member has used the Zylia ambisonic mic built with MEMS.
I'm looking forward to a miniature MEMS-based fig-8.. and beyond that, a complete miniature Mid/Side mic. Extra credit for variable Mid pattern. Double extra credit for variable Mid vector.
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Follow up on this Shoeps CMIT, and moreso, the miniCMIT. Does anyone know of any live recordings done with these with a jambandy show? It is too bad the Shoeps seems to hold it's high value so well (makes sense), Wish I could try one without the commitment of owning it. Does anyone know of a place that might rent one, for a try before you buy possibility?
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Follow up on this Shoeps CMIT, and moreso, the miniCMIT. Does anyone know of any live recordings done with these with a jambandy show? It is too bad the Shoeps seems to hold it's high value so well (makes sense), Wish I could try one without the commitment of owning it. Does anyone know of a place that might rent one, for a try before you buy possibility?
A taper that's somewhat local to me who's handle is "darby" uses a pair of the miniCMIT mics sometimes or at least did a year or two ago. Search LMA for him and check out the sources. He uses other Schoeps quite a bit and used to be all AKG for years before he came to the dark side.
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I actually listened to one of his (Billy from last year I believe it was) very impressed with it given the circumstances. They definitely have their drawbacks size and cost, but the reach they have is pretty incredible. I'll keep my eyes open for them, but they don't seem to turn up used very often. TY
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Interesting. I wasn't aware of the miniCMIT.
Polars from the Schoeps website below. Looks pretty well behaved for an interference tube design, but that's expected from Schoeps. MiniCMIT pattern is more hypercardioid in comparison to the mk41's more supercarioid pattern. Front lobe pattern gets funky above 4kHz, likely translating as less top end sparkle off axis / or if that is EQ'd to be flatter, on-axis will gain a rising response up top. Rear lobe looks to sound dark.
miniCMIT-
(https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload/Grafiken/Richtrohre/CMIT/schoeps-mikrofone-richtmikrofon-MiniCMIT-grafik-polar.jpg)
mk41-
(https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload/Grafiken/Colette/Nieren/schoeps-mikrofone-colette-kapseln-kugeln-MK41_CCM41-polar.jpg)
Who knows how the polars for the MEMS array mics really measure. Along with the tighter patterns, they are likely to have far messier stuff going on off-axis.
I'd love to see a miniSuperCMIT with analog output, but would be well beyond my budget. Look how the second capsule and DSP clean up and significantly reduce the rear-lobe, along with tightening up the front lobe further.
SuperCMIT pattern 1-
(https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload/Grafiken/Richtrohre/CMIT/schoeps-mikrofone-richtmikrofon-SuperCMIT-preset1-grafik-polar.jpg)
SuperCMIT pattern 2-
(https://schoeps.de/fileadmin/user_upload/user_upload/Grafiken/Richtrohre/CMIT/schoeps-mikrofone-richtmikrofon-SuperCMIT-preset2-grafik-polar.jpg)
Above images from schoeps.de
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Thanks for the PP diagrams. I had not seen those. I'll take 2 mini's please, those look really fun!
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Not sure if self-promotion is allowed but I can answer some questions if people have them.
We just released Konos 2 with recording on the device so the signal path is full digital.
Also added a few other features such as an input for LTC, Info LCD, Battery slot and smaller.
Same website updated info.
https://www.konos-sound.com/
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what I couldn't figure out is "what is the output file" mono ? stereo ?
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Konos records 8 audio channels stored on a SD card as separate 24bit 48khz WAV files.
The first 6 files are the beams 180°/100°/60° Front and 180°/260°/300° Complement.
Only the beam set selected will have audio the other channels will be blank.
The 7th channel is the Konos Select audio from the beam set chosen by the Beam Selector.
The 8th channel is the LTC audio recorded
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Craig beat me to it. Its a bit confusing.
Looks like it supports 3 analog outputs (+ headphone out)..
..along with integrated recording to SD card consisting of 8 channels, 4 of which contain data (see details from user guide data sheet below).
Analog outs:
1) Target - Primary on-axis beam-shaped output (180°/100°/60°)
2) Rear - Complementary off-axis output (180°/260°/300°)
3) Processed - Konos filtered output (presumably the primary target output with further reduced off-axis sensitivity)
4) Headphone out (not clear if switchable or not, maybe only processed?)
From the K2 data sheet:
Integrated digital recording.
Record three channels (target, rear and processed) in uncompressed 24bit 48khz directly on the device via micro-SD card.
Timecode input and Real Time Clock. Timecode is recorded as a 4th channel and recordings are time stamped with an RTC.
SD Recording 5 Channels : Main, Complement, Konos Select, LTC
^ Not clear what the 5th channel is (typo?). Only four are mentioned elsewhere. Data sheet clarifies a bit also indicating 4 channels of the 8 total containing data:
From the K2 user guide /data sheet:
Information on recording format
Konos records 8 audio channels stored on a SD card as separate 24bit
48khz WAV files.
The first 6 files are the beams 180°/100°/60° Front and 180°/260°/300°
Complement.
Only the beam set selected will have audio the other channels will be
blank.
The 7th channel is the Konos Select audio from the beam set chosen by the
Beam Selector.
The 8th channel is the LTC audio recorded
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Not sure if self-promotion is allowed but I can answer some questions if people have them.
We just released Konos 2 with recording on the device so the signal path is full digital.
Also added a few other features such as an input for LTC, Info LCD, Battery slot and smaller.
Same website updated info.
https://www.konos-sound.com/
Very cool to come onboard here. This does seem optimized for things other than music. The 50Hz low frequency cut off is a bit high for audio tapers. We typically use microphones which go 20Hz-20Khz, although some mileage may vary.
Thanks for the new model link.
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Yes. seamusrowe, big thanks for joining the discussion here.
rock- I assume the primary target application is as a boom mic, but should be applicable anywhere a traditional shotgun mic is called for. Will be interesting to find out how smooth its pickup patterns actually are, since that's on of the weak points of traditional interference tube microphones. In the case of this mic the electronic summing of the elements in it's MEMS array takes the place of the acoustic summing of wavefronts passing though the interference tube. In addition to providing switchable, acceptance angle, the scheme may or may not provide improved performance in comparison to an interference tube microphone.
seamusroew- I've a feature suggestion which should make the mic more widely attractive, and may not involve much difficulty depending on the geometry of the MEMS array. Add an option allowing the user to choose between 1) the rear-facing complementary output as currently implemented, OR 2) a bi-directional Side-channel output, which gets routed to the 2nd analog output / written to SD card. That would allow use as a Mid/Side stereo mic, without any need to sacrifice the highly tuned mono Mid pattern. In other threads here at TS we've discussed methods which could be used to create a stereoized output from this mic as it is currently implemented. That involves a phase manipulation of the rear/complementary output which allows it to better serve as side channel. However, providing the option to output a true fig-8 Side-channel output would allow true L/R stereo output from the mic.
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Yes. seamusrowe, big thanks for joining the discussion here.
seamusroew- I've a feature suggestion which should make the mic more widely attractive, and may not involve much difficulty depending on the geometry of the MEMS array. Add an option allowing the user to choose between 1) the rear-facing complementary output as currently implemented, OR 2) a bi-directional Side-channel output, which gets routed to the 2nd analog output / written to SD card. That would allow use as a Mid/Side stereo mic, without any need to sacrifice the highly tuned mono Mid pattern. In other threads here at TS we've discussed methods which could be used to create a stereoized output from this mic as it is currently implemented. That involves a phase manipulation of the rear/complementary output which allows it to better serve as side channel. However, providing the option to output a true fig-8 Side-channel output would allow true L/R stereo output from the mic.
Gut's upgrade would tend to make me want to try recording music with it... or nature sounds maybe!? That bird over there???
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Using this away from AC power would make it difficult for many users particularly tapers who often rely completely on battery power.
From the spec page -
Operating time on battery power
~1hrs (17wh NP-F)
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Looks like V1 ran on USB. That would make it much more practical.
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Potential for stereo output from this microphone in its current form (please ignore if uninterested) -
A follow up on this..
In other threads here at TS we've discussed methods which could be used to create a stereoized output from this mic as it is currently implemented. That involves a phase manipulation of the rear/complementary output which allows it to better serve as side channel. However, providing the option to output a true fig-8 Side-channel output would allow true L/R stereo output from the mic.
^
One might of course use this microphone as the Mid channel of a Mid/Side stereo pair, along with a figure-8 microphone serving as Side channel. But its also possible to create a "stereo" output using just the "front" and "rear" outputs from this microphone on its own without an additional fig-8 microphone. As an example of that, below is a link to a folder containing several examples of a technique I use when I have only front and rear facing microphone channels available rather than left/right or mid/side channels.
The technique alters stereo image distribution using Mid/Side processing in combination with a manipulation of phase. It assigns the forward-focused primary channel as Mid, and the complementary rear/everything-else channel as Side after treating it with a phase rotation process so it more closely emulates the behavior of a bi-directional microphone. The result is that the forward-focused, primary on-axis content inhabits the center of the playback image and the complementary, rear-facing content spreads out from the center to either side of the stereo image. It's open and spacious with depth although it lacks any specific left/right location directionality. The dry, direct, on-axis, forward-focused sound inhabits the center of the stereo image and the off-axis, reverberant and ambient content spreads from the center out to either side in a spacious and diffuse kind of way.
The original recording used for these examples did not actually use a front-facing/back-facing microphone pair, but rather a typical near-spaced L/R stereo pair placed at stage-lip with the center axis of the pair facing directly forward (actually a mix of two pairs sharing the same center axis). That's all quite normal, what's not was that the drum kit was setup stage-right, sideways to the audience, so all drum content is heard as coming from the left in the recording. The demonstration uses this technique to redistribute instrument placement, particularly drum content, few different ways without changing the relative level balance between instruments.
Use of an fig-8 microphone as Side channel would further expand the stereo output with acutal left/right image placement differentiation, but the lack of that isn't as much of a deal killer as one might imagine. In the various demonstration samples, only the original file (the one with schoeps in the file name) features left/right stereo differentiation. All the others invert that into variations on Mid/Side or "front/back" stereo with no specific left/right differentiation.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1m1UuL6aD38-zHr4mrsrmuTXxmaKwC41E?usp=drive_link (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1m1UuL6aD38-zHr4mrsrmuTXxmaKwC41E?usp=drive_link)