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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: guitard on September 13, 2023, 02:33:16 PM
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I hate asking stupid questions, but ...
I am in the market for a stand and t-bar to use with my rig that includes MK41s. While looking around at various bars and mounts, I saw this hat mount for MK41Vs:
(https://images3.sw-cdn.net/product/picture/710x528_21013794_11935468_1687490454_1_0.jpg)
And it surprised me because my first thought was that if you wear this in the front of your hat, the mics will be pointing away from the sound source. So now for the (potentially really stupid) question - should I be pointing my MK41s in the same directions? If that's the case, I've literally been pointing them the wrong way. But I know that MK41s and MK41V are two different mics, so maybe I'm not as stupid as I first thought (fingers crossed!). Basically, I've just been positioning them so that they are (generally) pointed forward and positioned on either side of the front part of my kangaroo. Of course, the NBobs and caps are positioned horizontally.
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imagine a kangol being worn backwards... 8) (i.e. samuel jackson)
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The MK41V is side address - the diaphragm is mounted in the middle of the vented housing facing the side so sound enters through the side vents
Your MK41 is end address - the capsule is mounted near the end facing the vents on the end so sound enters where you have it pointed.
I would not use this mount for 41s - it's intended specifically for the vertically mounted mk41V - keep doing what you have been doing.
My favorite mounting setup for the 41s was a Vark bar, Schoeps SGC mini clips and a A20 mount to hold the vertical attachment for the bar.
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The MK41V is side address - the diaphragm is mounted in the middle of the vented housing facing the side so sound enters through the side vents
Your MK41 is end address - the capsule is mounted near the end facing the vents on the end so sound enters where you have it pointed.
I would not use this mount for 41s - it's intended specifically for the vertically mounted mk41V - keep doing what you have been doing.
My favorite mounting setup for the 41s was a Vark bar, Schoeps SGC mini clips and a A20 mount to hold the vertical attachment for the bar.
Part of my ignorance is that I've literally never taped with another true taper; let alone someone who tapes with the same mics. Having said that, thank you for letting me know my stupid question didn't turn out to be stupid!
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My favorite mounting setup for the 41s was a Vark bar, Schoeps SGC mini clips and a A20 mount to hold the vertical attachment for the bar.
Do the Schoeps SGC mini clips screw onto the Vark bar? I looked at several websites selling those clips, but they all use the same pic and don't offer a view of the underside of the clip.
I gather you snap your MK41s into the mini clips that are attached to the Vark bar, and then adjust the direction of the mics accordingly?
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My favorite mounting setup for the 41s was a Vark bar, Schoeps SGC mini clips and a A20 mount to hold the vertical attachment for the bar.
Do the Schoeps SGC mini clips screw onto the Vark bar? I looked at several websites selling those clips, but they all use the same pic and don't offer a view of the underside of the clip.
I gather you snap your MK41s into the mini clips that are attached to the Vark bar, and then adjust the direction of the mics accordingly?
Yes the sgc clips thread onto a 3/8 attachment. You thread the cable through the slot in the top of the clip then slide the little nipple base at the bottom of the capsule connector into the clip.
I don't think Vark is in business any longer so those bars may be hard to come by but MacArthur makes one a lot like it that they sell at Posthorn - https://www.posthorn.com/Macvk_4.html (https://www.posthorn.com/Macvk_4.html). It has a 20cm vertical bar that attaches in the middle then goes into a 20mm shockmount turned 90 degrees. The whole bar is shockmounted instead of the individual mics.
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I made an identical mount looking for MK4s (which of course fit MK41s). I just took an old bathroom or kitchen plastic garbage can and started cutting to make a similar shape for a Kangol brim. Its a little fussy getting the exact right shape for the hat (fits forward in the space by the brim), but with a small garbage can, you've got at least a half dozen attempts, or you can cut it oversize and trim away to get the perfect shape.
I then drilled a series of 4-6 small (1/16th") holes on the side of the mount, each hole being about a quarter inch from the other. The row should be oriented for the direction of the microphone either straight forward or at an outward angle. I found the direction didn't make any audible difference for an audience tape.
I then repeated this row about the thickness of the MK4, about an inch and a quarter. I then repeated this on the other side of the mount. I then added elastic waist band material (obtained from a fabric store) and sewed the elastic into the mount using stout waxed thread and using the tiny holes for the thread. Stretch it tight before sewing.
Holds the MK4s perfect in a Kangol.
I can PM pictures if anyone wants.
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I can PM pictures if anyone wants.
Yes please!
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I can PM pictures if anyone wants.
Yes please!
Would like pictures too. Thank you!
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Send me those pics, too, if you don't mind. Though I can't picture wearing my hat backwards, I would give it a try!
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Apparently, one may not send a picture, only a link, in a PM, so anyone wanting a picture of my garbage can MK4 mounting semi-circle, please PM me with your email.
It is just a semi-circle fitting under the brim of a Kangol with elastic bands holding the microphones. The semi-circle has to be trimmed to fit the brim of your particular Kangol, but looks nearly identical to the one pictured but the microphone alignment has the mikes facing forward, not to the side.
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Second row center at a Judas Priest show - with the Vs in a kangaroo Shapeways mount. How should I orient the red dots?
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The MK41V is side address - the diaphragm is mounted in the middle of the vented housing facing the side so sound enters through the side vents
Your MK41 is end address - the capsule is mounted near the end facing the vents on the end so sound enters where you have it pointed.
I would not use this mount for 41s - it's intended specifically for the vertically mounted mk41V - keep doing what you have been doing.
My favorite mounting setup for the 41s was a Vark bar, Schoeps SGC mini clips and a A20 mount to hold the vertical attachment for the bar.
Part of my ignorance is that I've literally never taped with another true taper; let alone someone who tapes with the same mics. Having said that, thank you for letting me know my stupid question didn't turn out to be stupid!
not a stupid question. in fact the 110 deg ortf mounts that are popular for end-address caps turn out to be perfect for me when "run backwards" at 70 deg for side-address caps for FOB work
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Second row center at a Judas Priest show - with the Vs in a kangaroo Shapeways mount. How should I orient the red dots?
towards the stacks
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Second row center at a Judas Priest show - with the Vs in a kangaroo Shapeways mount. How should I orient the red dots?
towards the stacks
It's an arena, so there won't be any stacks - just the more typical left & right hanging speaker arrays. From second row center, those hanging speaker arrays are going to be quite a ways above my head at about 10 o'clock on the left, and 2 o'clock on the right. Although I didn't mention it in my original post, I was already aware of this and knew that I would have to orient the red dots to point almost straight up above me if I was going to point them at the speaker arrays from that location. I wasn't sure if that was a good idea; hence my posting my original question.
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Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating. If that's above you, so be it. From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet. Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.
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Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating. If that's above you, so be it. From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet. Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.
Great advice - thanks Lee.
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Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating. If that's above you, so be it. From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet. Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.
Great advice - thanks Lee.
So, I did what I highly recommend all tapers do—I followed Lee's advice. 8)
I didn't record the opening act Sabaton, but I used their sound to try and figure out where the sound was coming from. It wasn't very obvious, actually. As I suspected, the speaker arrays were almost directly above my head and off to the sides—so not much of a factor. There were wedge and side stage monitors, but all of the band members had IEMs, so I am not sure how much those monitors factored into the on-stage sound. Although, I suspect there were other speakers on the stage; but they just weren't visible. There were also no guitar/bass amps visible, but the guitarist on the left side of the stage was much louder in the mix than the guitarist on the right side (I was center-left of the stage). They were likely in their normal spots, but were covered up.
I decided to orient the red dots upward about 12-15 degrees (starting from originally being oriented straight forward).
To my ears, in spite of being in the 2nd row, there isn't much snap or clarity to the drums, or for that matter, any of the instruments. But the vocals (somehow!) come through fairly clear. Although, it sounds more like a stack tape to me.
Judas Priest posted this picture at their FB page from the end of the show. If you look closely, you can see me and my grandson.
(https://i.imgur.com/B2mgpE4l.jpeg)
We both shot video, which I mixed and synced with the MK41V audio. Here's a sample:
https://youtu.be/j-YxPuO-jYE
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awesome pull, congrats and getting it done
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No mention of how the pipes on the motor scooter sounded. Boo! :tomato: :lol:
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That does sound great.
Off topic of audio, but what did you use to record the video?
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That does sound great.
Off topic of audio, but what did you use to record the video?
I shot this show with my 13 yr old grandson and we both used Panasonic ZS100s.
Here is a long thread about this camera - started by me five years ago ;D.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189720.0
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Cool, Thanks. That's some really solid video for a little point and shoot.
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I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows. Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side. When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.
Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume. This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%. The results are generally OK.
I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.
I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?
Here's an example of recording in this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E
Thx!
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I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows. Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side. When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.
Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume. This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%. The results are generally OK.
I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.
I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?
Here's an example of recording in this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E
Thx!
Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately. Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.
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Good looking video. I'm watching on a computer with a built-in mono speaker so can't comment on the stereo aspects right now, but agree with Grawk. Best bet when off to one side is usually balancing the sound by orienting the mic array directly toward the nearer stack.. might get away with somewhat less so if the on-stage amps and drums are loud.
Maybe don the hat at a rakish angle?
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tl;dr, do that, along with some balance correction as needed. ^
..Or alternately, rather than attempting to center the playback image by rotating the mic array to face the apparent acoustic center while recording, an interesting option is to go the opposite route and intentionally emphasize the imbalance between channels, and use that imbalance to good stereo advantage. This requires post work afterward, but can offer some interesting and useful advantages in "stack tape" and sideways-facing situations. The goal becomes getting sufficiently dry, clear, upfront sound from the PA in one channel and "everything else" (audience, stage sound, reverberant room sound, etc) in the other channel, then applying the techniques we've discussed in other threads about how to handle a badly off-center recording using mid/side and pseudo-stereo techniques afterward. Since we've discussed this a number of times in alternate threads I won't go into to detail here unless you want me to. Essentially the main or PA-dominant "stack-tape" channel is assigned as Mid channel and the other channel as Side. Sometimes that alone works fine, along with dialing in the appropriate ratio to taste. Other times it will cause low frequency content to pull strongly left, If so there are a couple ways of processing the Side channel to prevent that from happening, and to improve things in additional ways. The PA "stack" content ends up dominating the center image, while the stage instruments, audience reaction, room sound and everything else featured in the other channel becomes diffusely spread out to the left and right. It will sound fully stereo but without distinct "only on the left-side verses the right-side" type stereo content, which additionally helps make it more robust to rotations of your your head while making the recording. Head rotation will effect the overall stereo width qualities somewhat, yet in a symmetrical way, rather than altering the stereo balance in a way that makes the image shift toward one side or the other like a change of stereo pan or balance.
It was from playing around with my baffled 4 channel stealth array recordings made in situations where I was off to one side and more or less sideways to the source that I got a good handle on this technique. The baffled LRCB microphone arrangement I use essentially consists of two pairs of baffled omnis, oriented at right angles to each other- one pair facing Left/Right, the other Front/Back. Although its not the primary intent of using this recording method, it does provide for experimentation in using those channels as as two separate stereo pairs, where I found I often liked the Mid/Side processed front/back pair as much or more than the direct L/R pair, partly because it provided control over the resulting reverberant balance, but it also often provided a much more interesting and engaging sense of width and depth - in contrast to a more typical stack tape with both mics facing the stack in which the sound is more baked-in and flat sounding.
Other than a few situations where I had a problematic channel or two that rendered a few of the regular LRCB channels unavailable, most of that experimentation was done simply as an exploration of this idea, figuring out how well it works. In most cases where I was recording from up front and off to one side like this I did end up with four good recorded channels, so I could use them as I usually do after reassigning them to rotate the entire array 90-degrees - so the channel facing the close PA becomes the Center (instead of say, nominal Right), the one facing the audience becomes Back (instead of Left), Center becomes Left, Back becomes Right. ..or rotate everything 90 degrees the opposite direction if recording from the left side of the stage.
I'm not suggesting switching to my 4-ch stealth technique to do the same, only explaining how it provided me with a really great way of testing and comparing these Sum/Difference approaches as an alternate to the traditional Left/Right pair approach.
With a typical directional stereo pair mounted in a hat (steering this back on topic), the operative choice while recording will be to either orient the mic pair directly toward the PA / loudest close source in an attempt to have that centered in the recording, or to rotate either yourself or the hat 90 degrees to emphasize difference rather than sameness across the two channels.
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I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows. Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side. When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.
Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume. This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%. The results are generally OK.
I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.
I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?
Here's an example of recording in this scenario: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E
Thx!
Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately. Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.
yeah its tough. the one mic that's pointing more toward the stack always has a better, clearer, more direct sound than the one pointing off into space. often times when i end up with something like this i try to do 60/40 or better into both channels, and sacrifice the image for a clearer, more monophonic pull. Best ive found if im on the side is to cock my hat sideways so i can still watch the show without recording in that direction if it makes sense. a B rig with small omnis like 406x can save the day here as well
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Best bet when off to one side is usually balancing the sound by orienting the mic array directly toward the nearer stack. might get away with somewhat less so if the on-stage amps and drums are loud.
Maybe don the hat at a rakish angle?
Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately. Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.
yeah its tough. the one mic that's pointing more toward the stack always has a better, clearer, more direct sound than the one pointing off into space. often times when i end up with something like this i try to do 60/40 or better into both channels, and sacrifice the image for a clearer, more monophonic pull. Best ive found if im on the side is to cock my hat sideways so i can still watch the show without recording in that direction if it makes sense. a B rig with small omnis like 406x can save the day here as well
Sorry for not responding sooner. I wanted to first try out the method all three of you suggested; and then respond. That opportunity came this past Friday when I went to see Sammy Hagar at Pine Knob in Clarkston (Detroit area stop). At this show, I turned the kangaroo about 30-35° to the right. Due to the Shapeways, that was about as far as I could comfortably turn it. The resulting audio pull still leaned heavier on the right MK41V, but not as much as before; and a simple re-balance turned out sounding nice to my ears. I suspect that is at least in part because the left MK41V was also able to pull some pretty nice stage audio. One other thing I notice about the 41Vs vs the regular 41s I used to record with - even when I turn my head 50-60° to the left to get a video shot, I don't hear very much phasing at all; but maybe that's wishful thinking confirmation bias ;D.
Here is a ten second video clip that shows how the speakers in my proximity were arranged: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mElnt-BMK9DgzY3ecrUubhkyPL97IzYA/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mElnt-BMK9DgzY3ecrUubhkyPL97IzYA/view?usp=sharing)
Video I shot of the full show synced with my MK41V audio: https://youtu.be/et9EBjYqvjk (https://youtu.be/et9EBjYqvjk)
Note: I followed the recommendation in YouTube's guidelines and encoded the audio at 384 kbits; which practically speaking, is about the same as a 384 bit mp3.
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Sorry to resurrect this topic, but it seems like the best place to ask.
What config is everybody running when going low-profile? I have both a sixpence hat and just got a baseball cap with mesh backside (kangol not happening lol). Currently I have run the MK41s in an A-B config as it seems the most viable spacewise, but interested to hear what other people are doing. I see SRS have these 3D-printed mounts, but they appear to be mostly for open-taping and not something that could fit inside a hat.
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Sorry to resurrect this topic, but it seems like the best place to ask.
What config is everybody running when going low-profile? I have both a sixpence hat and just got a baseball cap with mesh backside (kangol not happening lol). Currently I have run the MK41s in an A-B config as it seems the most viable spacewise, but interested to hear what other people are doing. I see SRS have these 3D-printed mounts, but they appear to be mostly for open-taping and not something that could fit inside a hat.
He makes them for hats(i have one of his)
That was when he was using shapeways which went out of business.
He's on Ebay but limited type of mount listed.
Anyone know of his current store front?
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Ah, I just assumed the listings on his eBay store was everything he got. There is a mount for clipping outside on a baseball cap brim, not very low profile, haha.
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He’s definitely willing to do whatever you want. Just send him a message here or via eBay
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He’s definitely willing to do whatever you want. Just send him a message here or via eBay
I sent Scott a message here two weeks ago about him making a hat mount for Church CA-11's and he said he'd send a link, but I'm still waiting. (Yeah, it's summer, he has a life, etc. but you know how it is when someone wants to play with their new toy. ;D) That said, his CA-14 mount illustration on Ebay sure looks like CA-11's. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/135213128009 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/135213128009)) Are they the same size? And am I to understand that Scott could also whip up a bar to mount the CA-11's for non-stealth situations? Thanks!
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Do people have a go-to config (DIN, DINa, AB etc) they use when stealthing or do you decide when you get to the venue (if you're not familiar with the place)?
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He’s definitely willing to do whatever you want. Just send him a message here or via eBay
I sent Scott a message here two weeks ago about him making a hat mount for Church CA-11's and he said he'd send a link, but I'm still waiting. (Yeah, it's summer, he has a life, etc. but you know how it is when someone wants to play with their new toy. ;D) That said, his CA-14 mount illustration on Ebay sure looks like CA-11's. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/135213128009 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/135213128009)) Are they the same size? And am I to understand that Scott could also whip up a bar to mount the CA-11's for non-stealth situations? Thanks!
srsrecording <srsrecordingservices@gmail.com>
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Do people have a go-to config (DIN, DINa, AB etc) they use when stealthing or do you decide when you get to the venue (if you're not familiar with the place)?
Depends on the taper in question I'm sure. Most probably keep the configuration the same since that tends to be more strongly dictated by the hat and mounting system and may (or may not) change the capsules for a different polar pattern depending on the situation. That said, some may switch to a different chapeau entirely if they know the deal ahead of time.
In general I prefer a little bit of angle between the mics, but straight AB will reduce pickup of nearby audience off to the sides as much as possible. Not sure how significantly though.
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I have only run AB due to (what I perceived to be) the limited space in a hat, but bought a mesh sixpence (on AliExpress of all places) and think I have managed to fit a DINa-ish setup, will be interesting to try out.
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Please let us know what differences you notice. Thanks.
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I use my mk41v in 20cm @90 degrees (DIN[w/ hypers]). Mostly because it fits that way well in the hat.
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Did anybody try to set them up in an XY configuration? ???
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Yes. I run my MK5 pair as cards in XY all at the time.
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Thank you very much for your reply.
I’ve noticed that some recordings made with Schoeps MK4s, which I’ve downloaded from DIME, tend to sound less wide in stereo but much more centered and upfront—almost “in your face” to my ears—compared with my own MK4 recordings made in a spread configuration. I’ve long suspected that differences in mic placement and configuration could be the reason for this sonic contrast.
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Did anybody try to set them up in an XY configuration? ???
Hypercardioid mics in XY can sound really nice. The small rear pickup lobe gives the arrangement an almost Blumlein like quality where crossed figure 8s are used instead of hypers.
This would only apply to mics placed in the free field - there's a lot of talk of hats in this thread and it wouldn't work the same way with a head in the way.
Only time I put my mk41s in a hat was on the sides of a big straw cowboy hat AB 4th row center for Herbie Hancock at NOLA Jazzfest in the Jazz tent.
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I’ve noticed that some recordings made with Schoeps MK4s, which I’ve downloaded from DIME, tend to sound less wide in stereo but much more centered and upfront—almost “in your face” to my ears—compared with my own MK4 recordings made in a spread configuration. I’ve long suspected that differences in mic placement and configuration could be the reason for this sonic contrast.
That's a good description of what I generally hear from coincident stereo pair arrangements ( X/Y or M/S) verses those that use spacing between the mics. The solid center image and "flatter, in your face-ness" are aspects that make coincident configurations somewhat unique and useful in terms of the sound they achieve, other than the physical mounting aspects. As Goodcooker mentions, X/Y using mics that have a pickup-pattern which features some amount of reverse-polarity rear-lobe will tend to achieve a more "open" and "dimensional" sound, if with somewhat less low bass fullness and extension than cardioids which don't have any rear lobe. X/Y using cardioids may tend to sound somewhat more deep and rich, but often features less depth and sense of dimensional openness. Mid/Side works basically the same, except using a cardioid mid generally equates to a stereo output that is similar to X/Y using supercards, and a supercardioid Mid equates to something more like X/Y using hypercards.
In pursuit of a sound that's sort of a "best of both worlds" combination, it's inclusion of the somewhat unique sonic aspects of a coincident-stereo pair that has influenced my preference for combining a coincident-pair and a spaced-pair when the intent is mixing the two separate stereo pairs together, rather than combining a near-spaced pair and wide-spaced pair which will tend to have somewhat less sonic differentiation between them. That's just my personal preference though, and is not intended to cast shade on the excellent recordings made by tapers combining near and wide-spaced pairs.. nor those making excellent recordings using a single pair.
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Topic = XY hypercardioids.
I don't speak Schoeps, but I gather the MK4's are hypercardioids?
If so, then our experience MANY years ago recording the Grateful Dead plays in here. We wanted to do AUD recordings from FOH, about 40-50 feet from stage and asked our mentor,,,,, a studio engineer, former FOH guy. He said Hyperss in XY will reduce some rear crowd noise, add some center balance and that is what we used for almost 100 shows. (Beyer M201) Many heads were enamored of the sound of these recordings, some would ask, "is this a soundboard"? especially the ones where we were about 40 feet from the stacks, DFC. Years later, a taping buddy had moved to Denver, made friends with Mark Nutter and started seriously buying microphones etc. He calls me one night and says, "hey, you know those XY recordings we made all those years ago don't have very much stereo separation?" So I Say, This is/was true, but can you recall ever listening to one and thinking it sounded "wrong"? No, because that up front XY hyper sound on the recordings of the Ultrasound PA was so righteous.
XY CAN be useful in certain situations, don't let a book tell you otherwise.
e.g.: https://archive.org/details/gd1983-05-14.141945.beyerm201.executivecrew-holbrook.flac2448
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41s are the hypers.
Personally, I'm glad there are lots of people recording in lots of ways. Gives you examples to listen to and decide where to start your own experiments...
I ran sub/8 mid side for a few years 25 years ago, which is mathematically the same as xy subs. Was a good sound. Now I tend to run subs or hypers DIN or DINa.
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MK 41 is a supercardioid, which has a narrower front pickup pattern than a cardioid but wider than that of a hypercardioid. See chart below.
Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.
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Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.
Not that it helps us in terms of concert recording, but from the chart that DSatz posted above, if the typical “hyper” capsule is midway to a super, then the maximum null angle might just be close to 120 degrees.
Who cares, you may wonder?
:shrug:
When setting up rock and roll lead vocalists with two stage monitors instead of just one, the wedge-shaped loudspeakers are often arranged in what amounts to an equilateral triangle, which has internal angles of 120 degrees.
These hybrid pattern mics might just be optimal for rejecting loud stage monitors in a rock and roll environment, and that might be why the manufacturers are keen to offer them.
When I bought a Shure Beta 57 (version 1), this was approximately the sales pitch.
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MK 41 is a supercardioid, which has a narrower front pickup pattern than a cardioid but wider than that of a hypercardioid. See chart below.
Very, very few microphones are real hypercardioids, even if they're called that by their manufacturers. The pattern just isn't optimal for most applications. Most microphones (or capsules) that are called hypercardioids are somewhere between supercardioid and hypercardioid, and quite often are closer to the supercardioid side of the line.
Dsatz, maybe that also explains why those Beyer M201's were GREAT for flutes, reeds, solo violins, bongos and other light percussion. We used them for those instruments with the PA company I worked for (early to mid 1980's). Although, our mentor, Mark Fitzgerald, knew a lot about acoustics, especially speaker and amplifier/filter design, so hopefully he didn't rec us to buy a hypercardioid which wasn't. 8)
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See footnote #2 on the pattern chart above: [A supercardioid pattern provides] "Maximum front to total random energy efficiency for a first order cardioid".
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I think that is one of the key aspects of a supercardioid intended for "concert taper" recording applications that are made from an audience perspective, which might sometimes includes isolated close spot-mic'ing / monitor rejection and such, but is mostly about capturing a natural sounding full soundfield with as much on-axis forward-sensitivity bias as practical. A well behaved supercardioid patten is the tool particularly well suited to achieving that because of its maximum front to total random energy efficiency. Also depending on the stereo microphone configuration, the inverse-polarity of the back lobe can helps contribute a convincing sense of "stereo naturalness".
Sure, the specific null angles of the pattern are another aspect that can be leveraged to advantage, but for most "concert taper" recording applications I think what applies most often for tapers are those aspects which affect the sounds of interest that are more distant rather than the sounds to be avoided that are closer. Ultimately useful for managing both of course.