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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: Brian Skalinder on May 12, 2024, 12:44:35 AM
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Hi All — Long time no see!
My old Fostex FR-2LE finally bit the dust and I'm in need of a new 2-4 channel recorder. I have about a week to get one in-hand before my next recording and I have no clue about the current landscape of recorder options. What better place to take advantage of the hive mind and identify a good replacement recorder?
Looking for something that roughly satisfies the following:
- ~$500-ish, but not set in stone.
- 2-4 channels of 48v phantom power (though I'm not opposed to more channels)
- Min of 24-bit / 48 hz (I assume everything these days will do this)
- Low noise analog components / internal preamps / ADC at high-ish gain. I record a bunch of unamplified choral music and while the ambient noise floor relative to source sound isn't particularly low in the field — even with dead quiet audiences (e.g. HVAC) — I'd rather not add to it unnecessarily with noisy analog circuitry
- Internal / onboard battery power of minumum 3 hours actual with 2-ch P48 / 10 ma draw
- Ideally a plug for an external DC power source
- Seamless WAV splitting
- Non-proprietary media, e.g. SD
- Non-proprietary file format, e.g. WAV / BWF (I assume everything is WAV / BWF?)
- While not critical at all, I'd prefer to NOT have built-in X/Y mics sticking off the side / end (what a waste of space)
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
These days I record mostly choral and organ music, with the occasional amplified bluegrass mixed in. I anticipate getting back to louder amplified shows at some point in the next ~6 years (when the kiddo starts driving himself around).
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WOW! Looks like your first post in over 5 years.
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Zoom F3 is the only thing I can recommend in your price range. If you can stretch your budget a bit, I would recommend an F6 instead.
Both options will require external power, however. I would not trust the internal batteries to get you 3 hours powering two mics with either recorder. If you get the F6, My recommendation is to use Sony L-mount style batteries that attach to the back.
One caveat with Zoom products that I recently discovered: they will not repair anything. My F6 suffered a short fall and two of the inputs were damaged. I had to spend $300 to replace the whole thing.
The other option I'd recommend is look for a used Sound Devices 702T or 744T, both of which could be had used around your price range. These are tanks and will last a very long time, and the company will repair them. I recently got a 788T-SSD and have been very happy with it.
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I own and might recommend the Tascam DR-680d. The downside for your specs above would be the mic preamps themselves in terms of the noise floor. I have zero issues running them without an external pre-amp, BUT, if I have my way I typically use externals before the 680. Others, and some on here, have claimed the noise floor is poor with the stock pres. You could always ask OADE's what they think and/or have on hand to sell you. That is where I bought my Marantz PMD-661 from. ( I am not rec'ing the Marantz as Dsatz gave a scathingly bad review regarding its' preamps, however, it does have the XLR and no internal mics stocking out feature you mention)
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It's out of your price range, but otherwise ticks all of the boxes: Sound Devices MixPre-6ii. Four XLR inputs (and another pair on 1/8"), good build quality, sounds great. If you can find a used first generation, it is probably about in the ballpark price-wise. I get around 5 hours with the 8 x AA battery sled with Eneloop Pros and it can also be powered with a USB-C power bank (with PD).
In addition to the F6 mentioned by voltronic, there is the Zoom F8n Pro. It is also out of the price range, but people that use them seem to regard them highly.
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The F6 is incredibly small, yet still has an uncramped interface. I swap the Sony batteries at around 5 - 6 hours, just because.
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A couple of people have suggested the Zoom F6. That's what I would do if you can stretch your budget a touch (or look at a used or open box model).
The menus are pretty straight forward and it's a lot more user friendly than the MixPre-6/II. You'll need a Sony NP-F camera battery on the back but you can easily get 5-6 hours per show on a 7000mAh battery that doesn't stick out too much.
You could look at other options but the idea of set it and forget it level wise makes live recording so much more enjoyable.
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Welcome Back!
I got my first gen Sound Devices Mixpre6 for $600. It's exactly what you describe. 6 inputs 4 of them with P48 mic inputs that are low noise and very transparent, easy to use, rugged, small and easy to power with a small inexpensive USB C battery.
You would have to find one used to get that kind of price but folks have moved on to the version II to get 32 bit. If you plan to do 24 bit it's the best recorder on the market IMO.
You could probably find a Zoom F6 that would tick all your boxes close to your price range if you buy used.
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Since no one's mentioned it, I'll add the R44 to the list.
I use 2 oade modified R44s but usually only bring one. If I need the channels I bring the 2nd and sync them with a simple 1/8" cable. They are HEAVY compared to all the newer options but I seem to remember them going for sale cheaper than I thought they should in the Yard Sale.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204379.msg2407929#msg2407929
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203526.msg2402441#msg2402441
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203249.msg2400254#msg2400254
I'm taking a break for about a month so if you want to borrow one to check it out, you can just pay postage back and forth and that covers you for your next tape.
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I vote for a USED Sound Devices MixPre-3 or 6 (original version). I have the 6 and see no reason at all to upgrade to anything else. It's pretty much the standard deck these days. Buy goodcooker's. You won't be disappointed.
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I would go with the Mixpre-6 as well! Zoom doesn't seem to fix broken recorders. Sound devices has awesome customer service.
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First Gen mixpre6. Nothing even comes close.
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Offer this guy $500.
Sound Devices MixPre-6 (with AutoMix plugin) https://reverb.com/item/77366581?utm_source=android-app&utm_medium=android-share&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=77366581
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Since no one's mentioned it, I'll add the R44 to the list.
I use 2 oade modified R44s but usually only bring one. If I need the channels I bring the 2nd and sync them with a simple 1/8" cable. They are HEAVY compared to all the newer options but I seem to remember them going for sale cheaper than I thought they should in the Yard Sale.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204379.msg2407929#msg2407929
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203526.msg2402441#msg2402441
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203249.msg2400254#msg2400254
I'm taking a break for about a month so if you want to borrow one to check it out, you can just pay postage back and forth and that covers you for your next tape.
Optimal setup for me too, 4 channels when you need 4, 6 or 8 when you link the clocks
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Thanks, all, really appreciate the update on the current state of affairs for all-in-one recorders. You've pointed me in a number of good directions, for which I've already started digging into some threads.
I'd forgotten how strong the pull is for bumping budget up for newer / better gear! Currently leaning towards a used SD unit, as I have fond memories of the excellent specs, performance, and build quality of my 722 years ago. And I like the option for repair. Torn between going under my budget for a 702 or over for a v1 Mixpre 3 or 6.
- Sound Devices 702. Leaning heavily in this direction as 2 channels should suffice for the foreseeable future.
- Sound Devices MixPre 3. Very tempting as an updated option vs. 702. Currently evaluating what's available in the market for a v1. Seen a couple that aren't much more than a used 702.
- Sound Devices MixPre 6. More I think about it, more I think I'm probably 5-7 years from having any desire to run more than 2 channels (not until kiddo's off to college). But still going to keep my eye out in case I get lucky on a v1.
- Zoom F3/6. I admit I know next to nothing about these higher quality Zoom units. I'm intrigued by the price / feature value, and need to educate myself more on the benefits of 32-bit. Not thrilled with no repair option, but then again I've used my FR-2LE without a repair option for many years.
- Edirol R44. I enjoyed my R44 when I had one. Just looking for something more recent and a little smaller (I transport gear on my motorcycle regularly)
- Tascam Tascam DR-680d (or DR-70D). Same as it ever was, it seems - Tascam's preamps aren't great. I enjoyed my HD-P2 when I had one, but I think it was Oade-modded, can't remember. Still, a tempting lower budget option.
I now have next weekend covered, so no longer in a rush, fortunately. Time to read up and see what's out there, maybe post an ISO in the YS.
Thanks so much, everyone! I have some more reading to do...
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FWIW I still have and use a Fostex FR2le, added a Tascam dr100mk3, which is smaller (supposedly better and has more options). Recently added a (used) Tascam dr701d for upto 4 tracks (the one with the hdmi connections) - I hear no difference between the two Tascams, dr701d seems very good to me.
But, when starting new these days, I’d get SoundDevices
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- Sound Devices MixPre 3. Very tempting as an updated option vs. 702. Currently evaluating what's available in the market for a v1. Seen a couple that aren't much more than a used 702.
- Sound Devices MixPre 6. More I think about it, more I think I'm probably 5-7 years from having any desire to run more than 2 channels (not until kiddo's off to college). But still going to keep my eye out in case I get lucky on a v1.
If it matters, the MixPres are quite a bit smaller and lighter than the 7-series. Not as full-featured, though. Also, the MixPre-3 has an option (the +2 plugin) that makes it go from 3-channel (5-track) to 5-channel (7-track), so if you want more channels in the future that is an option.
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Thanks, all, really appreciate the update
- Edirol R44. I enjoyed my R44 when I had one. Just looking for something more recent and a little smaller (I transport gear on my motorcycle regularly)
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Thanks so much, everyone! I have some more reading to do...
Can't you get a bigger bike?
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for 2 track recording where you need xlr/phantom, it's hard to beat the F3. It's not a perfect machine, but the compromises work really well for taping, in my experience.
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Good list. I'm mostly stopping in to say welcome back, B!
I still have use and like OCM R44 as well as DR680, but I think SD or Zoom is probably the right answer for you. I mostly use a first gen Zoom F8 myself and really like that machine. Well built, great preamps, great reliability, no problem with generic SD cards, easy interface. I've never had to repair any of my recorders so things like layout, ease of use, full size XLRs for each input channel, and cost-benefit make the Zoom F series very attractive to me.
Take a look at an F3. For 2 channels its seems to be the sweet spot and is likely all you need. Cheap, simple, reliable, small, sounds good.
The 32 bit floating point recording feature of the new Zoom's and SD's isn't important to me, but is valued by other TS members. Consider that sort of a separate issue to look into. I prefer recording straight 24/48 WAVs for a few reasons - 24-bit offers more than sufficient dynamic range for me, the resulting files are smaller, and are straight raw WAVs which result are playable by anything, prior to doing any post conversion and normalizing.
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I prefer recording straight 24/48 WAVs for a few reasons - 24-bit offers more than sufficient dynamic range for me, the resulting files are smaller, and are straight raw WAVs which result are playable by anything, prior to doing any post conversion and normalizing.
true DAT
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I got my Zoom F6 last fall from Sweetwater for $500. They are on sale regularly for $650 down from $750 and sometimes drop down to $500
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- Sound Devices MixPre 3. Very tempting as an updated option vs. 702. Currently evaluating what's available in the market for a v1. Seen a couple that aren't much more than a used 702.
- Sound Devices MixPre 6. More I think about it, more I think I'm probably 5-7 years from having any desire to run more than 2 channels (not until kiddo's off to college). But still going to keep my eye out in case I get lucky on a v1.
If it matters, the MixPres are quite a bit smaller and lighter than the 7-series. Not as full-featured, though. Also, the MixPre-3 has an option (the +2 plugin) that makes it go from 3-channel (5-track) to 5-channel (7-track), so if you want more channels in the future that is an option.
good rec with the caveat that you have 3 ch of phantom and the other two are line-in
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- Sound Devices MixPre 3. Very tempting as an updated option vs. 702. Currently evaluating what's available in the market for a v1. Seen a couple that aren't much more than a used 702.
- Sound Devices MixPre 6. More I think about it, more I think I'm probably 5-7 years from having any desire to run more than 2 channels (not until kiddo's off to college). But still going to keep my eye out in case I get lucky on a v1.
If it matters, the MixPres are quite a bit smaller and lighter than the 7-series. Not as full-featured, though. Also, the MixPre-3 has an option (the +2 plugin) that makes it go from 3-channel (5-track) to 5-channel (7-track), so if you want more channels in the future that is an option.
good rec with the caveat that you have 3 ch of phantom and the other two are line-in
Just a slight clarification. The 3.5mm stereo input on the mixpre series also has a mic level input mode (along with other functions like timecode) with plug-in-power available. They don’t use the Kashmir preamp circuit, but are good performers nonetheless.
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love the dr70d
does have built in mics but mostly unobtrusive
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love the dr70d
does have built in mics but mostly unobtrusive
I enjoyed mine as well, but went looking for other options because the preamps are extremely noisy at higher gain levels. My typical recording situation is similar to what Brian has mentioned, so I can't recommend the 70D to anyone recording choral music.
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Past owner of a 722 and current owner of a Zoom F3. I'd go F3 all day. Preamps are more than adequate for our purposes, ease of powering, 32bit, size/weight. At $300 new, I'm not concerned about service. I'll just buy another or newer equivalent if something breaks. There's enough of them out in the wild that if there was a major QC issue, it would be known.
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First Gen mixpre6. Nothing even comes close.
just did the same thing last fall, ditched the 2 hd-p2's for a mixpre6 I. very glad with my decision. reverb has them cheap usually, and welcome back !
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Past owner of a 722 and current owner of a Zoom F3. I'd go F3 all day. Preamps are more than adequate for our purposes, ease of powering, 32bit, size/weight. At $300 new, I'm not concerned about service. I'll just buy another or newer equivalent if something breaks. There's enough of them out in the wild that if there was a major QC issue, it would be known.
Concur
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I've been thinking about selling my F3, it's been used maybe 5x in the 2 years I've owned it. Nice piece of gear, but I'm just not really using it enough to justify keeping it. We can work out a good deal if you're interested!
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I own two F3s and almost always run both of them at gigs from different locations. Set them up, turn them on, walk away. Mixing the two recordings is not difficult, just requires some practice and care.
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So much has changed in the recorder department, I still remember when reliable 4-channel 24/96 was just a pipe dream!
I would listen to as many Sound Devices MixPre samples and Zoom F series samples as possible. Throw in some Sound Devices 700(?) series samples as well.
A few years ago I finally upgraded my home playback to some (semi) serious studio monitors + DAC and it made a huge difference in critical listening for me.
I absolutely am biased, based on my owning (and loving) an F3 and F6, but I did a lot of listening and I preferred the Zoom F series before buying them. The difference is subtle but I liken the Zoom preamps to a V3; clean and transparent. Minimal-to-zero coloring of the sound.
While the MixPre preamps aren't very colored to my ears, they're just SLIGHTLY (I repeat SLIGHTLY) dull. This could be a lack of brightness. It is definitely subtle, but I hear it. I have heard plenty of MixPre recordings that I thought sounded great, and I have no doubt you could make great recordings with them. It's entirely possible the Zoom preamps have just a hair of that classic high-frequency bump (presence) that most people like. I know I like it. The Zoom and SD recorders both have excellent noise performance, see specs. I've only listened to a few of SD 722 samples and I liked them.
It sounds like SD's service is better and I know the MixPre's are engineered VERY well; they're using 3 separate ADC's, set at different gain stages, and the recorder selects the ideal ADC based on the incoming signal level. This applies to 24-bit and 32FP recording mode. The Zoom's use 2 ADC's for a similar feature. Both have proven to be reliable in the field.
32-bit Floating Point (32FP) is a whole other animal; good luck haha. Just know that the main difference is that you do not set your levels when using 32FP. There is not a sonic benefit to using 32FP over 24-bit. IMO, do not fear 32FP. It is super useful when I setup close to the stage/performers and I can hit record well ahead of time and not interfere with the performance while messing with levels. The performers appreciate it and I'm allowed to record a lot of great musicians because they know I stay out of the way. Or hitting record early at a rock show and wandering the venue and enjoying the performance has been priceless for me, I truly tape more now.
If you're only gonna be doing 2 channel work for the forseeable future, I recommend just start out with an F3. Tiny, cheap, simple and sounds great. A tiny 5000mah cellphone battery off Amazon and it will run 10+ hours.
The good news is I don't think you can go wrong with any of the above recorders. We should celebrate so many wonderful options.
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Thanks all for the ongoing input, I really appreciate it.
As I read feedback in this thread and over here (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=204997.msg2412110#msg2412110), I'm revising my thoughts on repair service. It's not so much repair service I value, but the initial durable build quality. True enough, at my price point it's easy and relatively cheap to replace anything that breaks with another unit.
I admit, I have a mental block about the Zoom offerings and concerns about the quality of the preamps for my unamplified choral recording. The feedback here and in other threads I've found here and elsewhere should amply dispel those concerns. I guess at a few years past the half century mark as my brain slowly turns to jello I'm just a bit more comfortable with what I know, which still has me leaning towards SD. I also find the F3 form factor a little odd, at least with my current bag / setup, whereas the MP3 v1 controls are all easily accessible from one side and within my bag.
I'm amazed at the options available these days, and it seems like I truly can't make a bad decision here! I've had a couple generous offers for MixPre-3 v1s which I'm currently considering. Clearly the answer is to pick up the MixPre-3 v1 and get my brother to buy an F3 so we can use both!
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Clearly the answer is to pick up the MixPre-3 v1 and get my brother to buy an F3 so we can use both!
This is a very solid approach. I hesitated getting into the Mixpre series until after the vii came out. The talk of the menu structure was baffling to me with all the different modes and how they differ. Once I finally bit the bullet and bought a Mixpre6 v1 from a member here well but gently used I found that the touchscreen interface was very user friendly and navigating the features was very straightforward.
The only hiccup IMO is the need to unpack polywav files before getting on with my typical workflow but that was an easy hurdle to overcome once I stopped being butthurt about it.
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I admit, I have a mental block about the Zoom offerings and concerns about the quality of the preamps for my unamplified choral recording.
We all did!
I hesitated getting into the Mixpre series until after the vii came out. The talk of the menu structure was baffling to me with all the different modes and how they differ.
I'm still somewhat there, but probably because I don't have enough hands on time setting-up/using one. The other things that sort of bug me are forced polywavs instead of an option for straight mono/stereo wavs, and not having full size XLRs for all channel inputs on mp6 (last one is not an issue with mp3)
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I admit, I have a mental block about the Zoom offerings and concerns about the quality of the preamps for my unamplified choral recording.
We all did!
I hesitated getting into the Mixpre series until after the vii came out. The talk of the menu structure was baffling to me with all the different modes and how they differ.
I'm still somewhat there, but probably because I don't have enough hands on time setting-up/using one. The other things that sort of bug me are forced polywavs instead of an option for straight mono/stereo wavs, and not having full size XLRs for all channel inputs on mp6 (last one is not an issue with mp3)
These are some of the reasons I bought a 788 instead of MixPre-II. 4 of the inputs are TA3, but that's not an issue for me.
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ticks most of your boxes but over the budget
Ill put my .02 in for the Sonosax M2D2
I love it. it sounds awesome, its tiny and you can just use an old cell phone as your bit bucket.
gives you analog in out digi i/o usb audio usb power & traditional etc and its the size of a pack of smokes.
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ticks most of your boxes but over the budget
Ill put my .02 in for the Sonosax M2D2
I love it. it sounds awesome, its tiny and you can just use an old cell phone as your bit bucket.
gives you analog in out digi i/o usb audio usb power & traditional etc and its the size of a pack of smokes.
Oh no, you didn't!
>:D >:D Don't mess with Bri's budget here! He says he has kids and stuff. >:D >:D
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Oh no, you didn't!
>:D >:D Don't mess with Bri's budget here! He says he has kids and stuff. >:D >:D
Guess he’ll have get them kids some jobs… or look at other options.
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Oh no, you didn't!
>:D >:D Don't mess with Bri's budget here! He says he has kids and stuff. >:D >:D
Guess he’ll have get them kids some jobs… or look at other options.
A bigger bike is cheaper..