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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: checht on May 24, 2024, 11:08:54 AM
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After 40+ years of listening to me blab about taping, my Dad's gotten the bug.
He hosts house concerts with baroque programs played on period instruments, and I've been around and recorded a couple for him. Suddenly, he gets it!
Last show I couldn't make, so had a friend drop off a Marantz with built in mics and set levels for him. Pianoforte top was down, no cellos in the mix, so gain wsa set too high and recording clipped a bit. Was able to fix in RX, but...
What very easy to use rig would folks recommend? $500 total.
Is there a low cost 32 bit recorder w decent mics? If not, esay to deploy mics a plus.
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It's a little beyond the budget, but I think it could sound really great...the NoHype SRM1 w/ fethead transformers and a Zoom F3.
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My opinion would be a used Sony M-10 and a pair of $200 external mics.
I have pulled relatively amazing results (No, no furburger stuff, certainly not Schoeps quality) with mine using the internals at shows where it was not open. I do not have a great stealth rig so tend to bring just the M-10. I have a Marantz PMD661 which has "interbal mics", but the internals on the M10 are 1000 percent better.
If you are in control of the location, and can get it close, it will do a great job with just the omni internals. You would need to show him how to set the gain, etc.
edited for clarity
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It's also a bit outside of the budget, unless you find something used, but SP C-4 > Zoom F3 could be a nice relatively low cost setup. I mainly recommend the c-4 because of the swappable caps. Omnis would probably sound good for that kind of music, assuming the room is decent
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I like the above recs. I think the stock Sony M10 sounds plenty good. If he doesn't mind messing with separate mics then the Studio Projects C4's (the 2nd version, the MKII's) are a great option with cap flexibility as mentioned. I recently upgraded my original version C4's to the MKII's after seeing some super cheap on ebay (~$200) and I've made excellent recordings with them and a Zoom F3.
I don't think it's a bad idea to start with something super simple like a Zoom H1:
https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/handheld-recorders/handheld-recorders/h1essential/
Only a hundred bucks and very simple. Simple is the key word with newbie tapers IMO. Overloading with too much info and tasks is the quickest way to ruin the hobby. See if he can consistently make recordings with that before shelling out more money, then you can always upgrade. No it's not the higher quality F series, and that might make a difference with quieter classical music, but I really don't think you guys will make terrible recordings with that.
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For that budget and use, I agree with rocksuitcase's reccommendation a used Sony M10 and external mikes It is what I use.
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How comfortable will he be with setting up a pair of mics and running cables?
Wondering about a recorder with decent quality built-in mics, as that would be easiest for him.
Or a recorder + a stereo mic that doesn't require to much messing around with. One or two cables, done.
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How comfortable will he be with setting up a pair of mics and running cables?
Wondering about a recorder with decent quality built-in mics, as that would be easiest for him.
Or a recorder + a stereo mic that doesn't require to much messing around with. One or two cables, done.
Really appreciate everyone's input. Gut, you nail it with the H1 recc. Since my retired-taper friend blew level setting last time, I just think 32 bit is kinda mandatory. Anyone have a sense of the quality of the built-in mics?
If they're terrible, he could use a pair of omnis and close mic the instruments, not worry about levels, and set balance in post maybe. Thoughts?
Could get some small/light light stands, mount H1 and mic to one, and other mic to the other, just have 1 cable to really deal with. That'd work. Maybe the
If the built-ins are ok, that'd be by far the easiest. Maybe give a try and see...
Thanks again, all.
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The H1 Essential is the updated version with 32-bit float.
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The H1 Essential is the updated version with 32-bit float.
That would be my recommendation as well. I am not sure about what external mic options it has though. And we all know at some point adding externals is going to figure into the equation. So, Maybe a different Hx Essentials would be a better choice? There should be plenty of room, with a $500 budget, to a model with more inputs.
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"The H1 Mic/Line Input is a stereo ⅛" mini phone jack that can accept two mic- and/or line-level signals. Condenser microphones requiring Plug-In Power (2.5 volts) can be connected to this jack."
Sounds like expansion/improvement would be simple.
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The Sony A10 has okay built in mics and you can control it from across the room with the app. I carry mine in my pocket with a little Camvate crab clamp and ball head to just about every show. Super easy to clamp in a good sounding spot and go observe from another spot.
IT is 24 bit and the built ins are pretty sensitive but should be fine for acoustic instruments at a house concert.
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Hi, classical recording guy here. I say you should go for:
Line Audio CM4 pair (or CM3 if you can find them used)
Zoom F3
For the intended application, I really think you need the flexibility of separate mics, and the Line Audio mics get you close to Schoeps quality for a very low price. Check the Team Line Audio link in my signature for info on them. This may push things a little beyond $500, but it will be far better than any built-in mics.
I strongly advise you do NOT buy anything from Zoom's H line, including the new Essentials. The preamps are far too noisy for acoustic / classical use, especially on period baroque instruments which generally are quieter than their modern counterparts.
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Thanks, Volt.
I've been gravitating towards the F3 on my own, and appreciate your perspective on noise floor.
I have a set of Vanguard V1 mics, haven't used them in 2 years, could 'store' them at my Dad's and stay under his $500 limit that way.
Issue is I'm worried that this becomes a rig that's too fiddly for him. As Gutbucket mentioned in his post, complexity is an issue with someone 90 years old...
But it would likely sound much better. If I were ok not having much room sound, I could put the omni caps on, have him close-mic, and set the balance in post. That'd eliminate a lot of the need for great placement.
Hmmm
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How about the TASCAM Portacapture X6? Built in mics, 32-bit float recording, plus a pair of XLR inputs feeding into decent preamps to allow for expansion/four track multi-miking. It has several modes, including one that is optimized for music recording. Power-up-and-record friendly.
The F3 w/external mics would also be on my list. Great little machine, if the extra setup hassles are acceptable.
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^Something like the Tascam X6 is what I was thinking. How good are the internal mics and noise level?
If he's comfortable with running it and wishes to go further, he can always additionally add your Vanguards or Line Audios.
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I own the X8, which I know use the 14mm Primo EM200 series cardioid capsules. The X6 has smaller 10mm capsules, but assuming they are Primos they will still have quite good noise performance. The preamps for both the XLR and 3.5mm inputs on my X8 are excellent, and I have no reason to think the same circuits aren’t used in the X6. The X6 sound samples I’ve heard on-line are, to my ears, far superior to the Zoom H series recorders, from both a noise and general quality perspective. The X6 will have a lot of features our OP’s dad won’t have the need to use, but these machines are great for holding the previous settings through a power cycle, so it should always be ready to go once initially set up.
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This is so cute! Hope your dad will record many shows for years to come!
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Thanks, Volt.
I've been gravitating towards the F3 on my own, and appreciate your perspective on noise floor.
I have a set of Vanguard V1 mics, haven't used them in 2 years, could 'store' them at my Dad's and stay under his $500 limit that way.
Issue is I'm worried that this becomes a rig that's too fiddly for him. As Gutbucket mentioned in his post, complexity is an issue with someone 90 years old...
But it would likely sound much better. If I were ok not having much room sound, I could put the omni caps on, have him close-mic, and set the balance in post. That'd eliminate a lot of the need for great placement.
Hmmm
The F3 is about the least fiddly thing you could use. Plug in external power bank (if recording a long time), plug in mics, turn on, press REC.
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If the internal microphones are not of good quality, an external xy stereo microphone can help with simplicity - it has one cable, simply to mount, it is easily aimed between the musicians and the stereo width can be adjusted in post.
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The F3 is about the least fiddly thing you could use. Plug in external power bank (if recording a long time), plug in mics, turn on, press REC.
Agree 100% with this suggestion at the $550 or so price point.
Make it even less fiddly by plugging in the XLRs/mics and leaving them plugged in all the time. This would be ideal with a set of XLRs with a light gauge cable... say similar to what nbob uses on his actives. I could see my 88-yo Dad have trouble fiddling with locking XLRs at the venue, so I'd just set it up for him before he leaves for the show. Just roll the mics/cables up with the recorder and stuff it all into a smallish Lowepro bag. Unroll it and fly the mics wherever. Turn the F3 on, hit record and he can take a two-hour nap. :)
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^ That's an idea. My concern with to jumping straight to the use of external mics doesn't involve any difficulty in using an F3 as recorder, but rather all the other stuff involved- setting up the mics in mounts on a stand in the right way, connecting and managing the cables, getting all that into the right position, not creating a trip hazard, all that jazz.
If you determine external mics and and F3 (or whatever) is the right answer, but want to avoid all those hassles, you might set everything up semi-permanently on a single mic-stand INCUDING the recorder, use a Shapeways mount that has no provision for changing mic angle or spacing (thus eliminating the possibility of any accidental change of mic config), and tie-wrap all the cables neatly to the stand. Make it is so that he can just pull that contraption out of the closet, place it wherever, point it in the right direction and hit record.
FYI this is pretty much how I manage to run 8 channels of mics myself with quick easy setup and breakdown. All the mics in the array remain attached and wired to the recorder at all times. I walk in, assess the situation, put a stand down and attach the array to it (or attach low-foot or clamp), unfold/telescope the array, confirm that the mics are all oriented in the right directions, raise the stand and press record. I can manage all that in about 60 seconds if really pressed for time.
[edit- Now if I could streamline the post work in a similar way.. :spin: ]
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If you determine external mics and and F3 (or whatever) is the right answer, but want to avoid all those hassles, you might set everything up semi-permanently on a single mic-stand INCUDING the recorder, use a Shapeways mount that has no provision for changing mic angle or spacing (thus eliminating the possibility of any accidental change of mic config), and tie-wrap all the cables neatly to the stand. Make it is so that he can just pull that contraption out of the closet, place it wherever, point it in the right direction and hit record.
Got to this setup in my thinking as well. Perhaps with added complication of 2 mic stands, one w recorder mount. For this acoustic music in a small room, close positioning is helpful in producing a recoding with distinction between instruments. I worry that placing an x/y config centrally will smoosh everything together. At the same time, issues of complexity and safety around cables makes the single point more attractive. I may just take advantage of Ama return policy and try the H1 compared with my multi-mic setup and asses. Can return and go more complicated if that seems wortht the extra cost and complexity.
Very much appreciate everyone's help!
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Got to this setup in my thinking as well. Perhaps with added complication of 2 mic stands, one w recorder mount. For this acoustic music in a small room, close positioning is helpful in producing a recoding with distinction between instruments. I worry that placing an x/y config centrally will smoosh everything together. At the same time, issues of complexity and safety around cables makes the single point more attractive. I may just take advantage of Ama return policy and try the H1 compared with my multi-mic setup and asses. Can return and go more complicated if that seems wortht the extra cost and complexity.
Very much appreciate everyone's help!
Instead of a second stand for the recorder, you could simply get a clamp like this
https://www.amazon.com/CAMVATE-Super-Clamp-Articulated-Thread/dp/B01N20RT82/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?crid=2SDBRDIXUB174&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.R6XEnds-JmXmmxMzJPyX4S4UW3hkblr1JE79CSzO7yp1b25BzIsMMLfCLajXdmUjKQp0NXewEPT7dmdAFXI2eprzfoQ-jCyQT4Kgh-3jKEKmGUiDvudFeVEvrm1-g0kqw6Ve2_jXlcwjCyYp-utJ1t8JyesYFefKSvdwfXq0rz7fmVvGaeWMyyic_6E_qSe8u5CwAhgKrhqFFUHIDJt0Ew.H0FxGNxr-eq_h8h7WMpbaOx-tlcfPi02Np1Xksa-qyc&dib_tag=se&keywords=camvate+clamp+1%2F4&qid=1717600571&sprefix=camvate+clamp+1%2F4%2Caps%2C201&sr=8-7
screw the F3 onto it, then just clamp it straight to the stand. I have a couple of these (mine has a 5/8 thread for a mic holder but it unscrews to reveal the 1/4 thread) and the ball head has enough grip to support the F3 at whatever angle you need but for even simpler set up, the ball head can even be removed and underneath it is a 1/4 screw that fits the F3 so you can just have the recorder directly attached to the clamp without the ball head.
Microphone stand, F3 clamped to it, shapeways mount with CM4s (NOS or "hybrid" array seem well regarded by classical folks), and cables sized to go from recorder to mics with little to no slack, all just living on the stand would seem the simplest, best sounding option. If it's not always the same room or same arrangement of instruments he could likely just walk around until it sounds best to his ears and drop the stand there, hit record then hold, and walk away. Some rechargeable AAs in the recorder and an external battery bank with a short cord stuffed in a small drawstring pouch (like a Crown Royal bag), and hang it off the T-handle of the clamp and he's good to go. If the stand will be placed where people may walk, perhaps a sand bag too.
I've run this exact set up (except I have a different mic bar and don't have short cables yet) and it worked a treat and sounds great. Your call if a lighting stand tripod or like an on-stage boom arm mic stand would be better but both will work. The boom arm stands are much more compact and the boom can just be left at vertical so he would just have to unscrew the tightening screw for the boom and raise it up.
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplace/accessories/music?tag=line+audio
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^ yes.
This would be the simplest and most likely to succeed. Issue is that the room is smallish and there are lots of different combos of instruments.
Some times, close miking is the best choice, and requires that 2nd stand.
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Instead of a second stand for the recorder..
To clarify, Checht is talking about mounting both the recorder and a mic to the first stand, with the second mic mounted on a separate stand. That retains most of the simplicity of the "everything pre-wired and attached to one stand" approach as only one mic cable needs to run between the two stands, while making it possible to position the mics closer to separate instruments.
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Instead of a second stand for the recorder..
To clarify, Checht is talking about mounting both the recorder a mic to the first stand, with the second mic mounted on a separate stand. That retains most of the simplicity of the "everything pre-wired and attached to one stand" approach as only one mic cable needs to run between the two stands, while making it possible to position the mics closer to separate instruments.
D'oh, you're right. Not sure how I missed that when I read it the first time :facepalm: