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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Thelonious on June 21, 2024, 10:12:36 AM
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Hello,
My apologies for asking a question that no doubt has been answered many times in the distant past, however, I’m a bit behind the times.
Circa 2000 I recorded many jams with a friend on a Sony D100. I also recorded several concerts around the same time. I transferred many of these to digital by going D>A>D back in the day, however, I would like to recapture and master these recordings as the technology available to do so is vastly superior to what I had then. Additionally, I would strongly prefer to capture bit perfect.
I have found my D100 (which has been wrapped in plastic in a box for 20ish years, annd I hope works) and my tapes.
I have my power chord for it but I will need to find the digital adapter to try to send coax out. I do still need to confirm that this even functions but it saw light use so I expect it will work.
I would be recording into my baby face pro interface (optical in) to my Mac or usb to mixpre 6ii. Therefore, in addition to the coax adapter for the D100, I would need to convert coax to toslink or usb prior to recording with these set ups.
My questions are:
1) Does this approach make sense, or should I be looking for an old used Dat player that can output to toslink directly?
2) What approach would you recommend to do this as cleanly and efficiently as possible?
3) Is there anything else I should be considering when setting up to make this as efficient and effective as possible?
I am primarily concerned with getting an accurate digital file. I have tools for EQ, separating tracks etc. once this is done (though open to software suggestions if there is something that would make this most efficient as I currently use Logic Pro X and vinyl studio pro for these purposes today and, while functional, they may not be best suited to the task).
I am would prefer to keep this under 3-400 US (I’m in Canada) but have some flexibility if there is a clearly superior solution.
Thank you very much in advance for any suggestions!
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https://www.adorama.com/us1739264.html
get that, a compact flash card, and a 75ohm rca to bnc cable.
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https://www.adorama.com/us1739264.html
get that, a compact flash card, and a 75ohm rca to bnc cable.
Why exactly do you recommend this?
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taking the computer out of thre transfer equation makes things a LOT less complicated. Just hit play on the dat and record on the sd702. And for $250, the 702 is a no brainer.
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+1 on taking the computer out of the process--use another device to record to an SD Card, then transfer that to the computer using a card reader. There are many DAT recorders on eBay right now for under $300. I happen to like Tascam DA20 and DA30.
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Confused...I don't think the D100 is a DAT recorder?
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Hi everyone, thank you for the feedback.
The D100 is, in fact, a DAT Walkman and much requires a proprietary adapter to output in digital (coax only).
I am leaning towards replacing the DAT as this would eliminate the need for the proprietary adaptor (freeing up budget) while providing redundancy in the DAT machine as it would be very hard to get one serviced in Canada at this point. I will spare you the rant around costs to ship things in and out of the US for taxes, brokerage fees, etc. Suffice to say this becomes material quickly). Additionally, going with the SD would be a third recorded and still require I find and purchase the d100 any proprietary adapter.
I can find some DAT machines in Canada around my price range that have optical out which would allow me to record to my Mac and keep a digital chain. I would prefer to record to my mixpre 6, however, the only digital input is usb and I would prefer to not add a converter to the mix. I hadn’t considered this use case when I purchased it.
Is there any reason risk in using a different brand of DAT for playback (there is a Luxman for sale in Montreal that has both optical and coax out)? Is an optical transfer as good as coax?
Thank you very much again. I really appreciate the ideas.
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TCD-D100 was the grey, consumer marketed version of the PCM-M1 DAT
It's got the 7 pin Sony digital connector like the TCD-D7 and TCD-D8 do. In the field, we would use "Oade" cables, a Y-shaped "dongle" made by Doug Oade, to chain decks together digitally using these ports.
Manual link
https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/product/tcd-d100/manuals (https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/product/tcd-d100/manuals)
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Folks, thank you all for the ideas. I just realized that I have an Edirol R44 that I use to capture vinyl and it has a coax in so all I need to do is find a 7pin to coax cable.
I see some options on eBay and Coresound has options on their page so I should be good to go here.
Thank you again to everyone for the help with this, it’s great appreciated!
I finally get to hear my CSNY 2002 tapes in all their glory. :)
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Folks, thank you all for the ideas. I just realized that I have an Edirol R44 that I use to capture vinyl and it has a coax in so all I need to do is find a 7pin to coax cable.
I see some options on eBay and Coresound has options on their page so I should be good to go here.
Thank you again to everyone for the help with this, it’s great appreciated!
I finally get to hear my CSNY 2002 tapes in all their glory. :)
I *may* have a 7 pin to coax OADE cable in my stuff. I found it a few months ago and wondered if anyone could use it.
PM me later tonight or this weekend to remind me to look. although, I am USA based. PM me and we'll figure How much it might cost to ship to you?
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It doesn't look like you're currently going in that direction, but you can't go digital in on the mixpre using the usb without a computer in the middle. It's not a host port.
That edirol is a solid option. Good luck with your search for a 7 pin.
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I *may* have a 7 pin to coax OADE cable in my stuff. I found it a few months ago and wondered if anyone could use it.
PM me later tonight or this weekend to remind me to look. although, I am USA based. PM me and we'll figure How much it might cost to ship to you?
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That would be great! I will PM you over the weekend. Thank you!
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It doesn't look like you're currently going in that direction, but you can't go digital in on the mixpre using the usb without a computer in the middle. It's not a host port.
That edirol is a solid option. Good luck with your search for a 7 pin.
Yeah, I assumed that the usb is only for a usb interface scenario. I appreciate the heads up though.
Thanks again for the feedback, I really appreciate it!
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I have a D100 DAT deck as well. I recently got this 7 pin to coax cable from Oade to facilitate an all digital transfer.
https://www.oade.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=130 (https://www.oade.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=130)
I have a soundcard with a optical in so I also picked up an Digital Coaxial to Optical Converter box so I could go directly into that input.
It's been working great.
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Thank you, that’s a great option! :cheers:
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin (https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin)
R44 is a very good option.
Looks like the Core Sound "7-pin to Coax" is $50. Remember that these are directional cables, so be sure to get the correct one for DAT transfers.
The Oade cable which provides in AND out costs more, but uses the original Sony connector, which has a protective metal shell around the delicate pins of the interface.
Back when these were common in the field, both Core and Oade cables were used in taper sections, but everyone knew that the Core needed to be handled very carefully.
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Doh! I was thinking of the PCM-D100.
But for DAT transfers, I think the hardware connection is the easy part. I did an archive of 1500 DAT transfers at work once, and it seemed any DAT tape could be in fine condition, terrible condition, or anywhere in between. Sometimes, a playback machine would go for dozens of tapes with no problem, sometimes one tape would clog a head. Play errors could be obvious, or a hard to catch, brief buzz like a mosquito flying by. This project took over a decade of intermittant work.
So, I recommend taking great care in the transfers.
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https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin (https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin)
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Looks like the Core Sound "7-pin to Coax" is $50. Remember that these are directional cables, so be sure to get the correct one for DAT transfers.
The Oade cable which provides in AND out costs more, but uses the original Sony connector, which has a protective metal shell around the delicate pins of the interface.
Back when these were common in the field, both Core and Oade cables were used in taper sections, but everyone knew that the Core needed to be handled very carefully.
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Thank you for this. I need ver did use one of the 7 pins originally, hence the desire to get one now to “upgrade” some of my recordings to a bit perfect copy of my master. I didn’t know the cables were directional and was confused by the core sound website as it listed the 7 pin to coax and coax to 7 pin as separate cables. I will now assume that 6pm to coax is the ability to transfer from the DAT to the coax in on my recorder. I don’t need to record to my Fat so one direction is fine and, as this work will all be done in home, I can be particularly careful with the cable.
It looks like rocksuitcase may have one kicking around so I will go with that but will consider going with the core sound cable if that cable doesn’t work for some reason.
Thanks again, this is very helpful information!
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Doh! I was thinking of the PCM-D100.
But for DAT transfers, I think the hardware connection is the easy part. I did an archive of 1500 DAT transfers at work once, and it seemed any DAT tape could be in fine condition, terrible condition, or anywhere in between. Sometimes, a playback machine would go for dozens of tapes with no problem, sometimes one tape would clog a head. Play errors could be obvious, or a hard to catch, brief buzz like a mosquito flying by. This project took over a decade of intermittant work.
So, I recommend taking great care in the transfers.
Hmmm, I’m hoping this doesn’t take a decade but I have less than 50 tapes.
Is there anything in particular that you suggest I do to help to ensure success other than to monitor the transfers in real time to try to listen for any anomalies? The tapes have barely been played (basically recorded and then played back to transfer to computer (many years ago, originally through analog cable). So far the deck seems to be functioning fine but I realize these are finicky machines and I not need it to work to transfer my masters cleanly to the computer so I’m hopeful. :shrug:
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
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Hmmm, I’m hoping this doesn’t take a decade but I have less than 50 tapes.
Is there anything in particular that you suggest I do to help to ensure success other than to monitor the transfers in real time to try to listen for any anomalies? The tapes have barely been played (basically recorded and then played back to transfer to computer (many years ago, originally through analog cable). So far the deck seems to be functioning fine but I realize these are finicky machines and I not need it to work to transfer my masters cleanly to the computer so I’m hopeful. :shrug:
I would try to make sure the playback machine is reliable, as a mechanical failure usually ruins a section of tape. Great if it's the same machine used for the recording, less chance of a compatibility problem.
You may have no problem at all playing 50 tapes, or any one tape could clog the head. Sometimes, a DAT/DDS cleaning tape can fix it, sometimes you have to manually clean the drum with video head chamois sticks, plus the tape path.
I'd recommend monitoring the transfers with headphones, even if not too loud will focus your attention to anomalies. You might hear obvious digital fuzz errors, or a tiny, momentary buzz. My method was to transfer to a computer DAW program, and if I heard a small problem, I would let it continue but make a marker on the file, and check them all afterwards. I might be able to go back, replay a section several times, and get a clean playback I could splice in. Sometimes, head cleaning would be needed first.
As an absolute last ditch effort, if I could not get a clean digital transfer, a few times I found that an analog playback had more error correction/concealment than a digital transfer, and I would match up and splice in a section of analog playback. A few times, there was no alternative to leaving a section with digital noise and just make a notation.
I assumed these transfers would be the last ever done, so I felt some care was appropriate. With luck, you may have no problems, but the tapes and machines are getting old and could have problems.
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Hmmm, I’m hoping this doesn’t take a decade but I have less than 50 tapes.
Is there anything in particular that you suggest I do to help to ensure success other than to monitor the transfers in real time to try to listen for any anomalies? The tapes have barely been played (basically recorded and then played back to transfer to computer (many years ago, originally through analog cable). So far the deck seems to be functioning fine but I realize these are finicky machines and I not need it to work to transfer my masters cleanly to the computer so I’m hopeful. :shrug:
best practice is to transfer each DAT twice, ideally on different setups if you have the hardware
invert the waves over each other in a new file and transfer errors will become apparent
zoom into waveform in the "difference" file (vertical axis/dB) and drop markers anywhere there is signal thats not zero
make a regions/list of markers (depending on our software), and drop this over the original waveform and listen to them
one of three results are possible:
1. both transfers are 100% identical with zero difference (rare, but most ideal)
2. there are transfer errors but they are low level and inaudible upon relisten (common, and ideal)
3. the errors are audible on one or both of the transfers, one of the recordings may be better than the other (esp if a different deck was used)
the procedure above will tell you if your transfer was good. it will also tell you if your soundcard/recorder is resampling or dropping samples/swapping channels which is far more common than people think, so its best to test any transfer setup. its how i discovered the microtracks were unsuitable for digital input. many other devices (i.e optical inputs on macs) resample all input so your wav is not the same as what was originally on the DAT
note that this will tell you if your *transfer* was good. doesnt tell you how good the data on the tape was. If you transfer from a master you can be assured there were no audible errors introduced. if the dat is a clone of another, and the master had errors that the playback deck corrected the best it could (possibly resulting in digital noise), the gen1 dat could have made a perfect recording of said noise that plays back cleanly and repeatably and does not get detected by the procedure above (nor will it show on error counters on the dat deck when played back)
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Thank you Glouie and breakonthru for the context and ideal process for the transfers. I was hoping that this would be easier than it looks like it will be, but I appreciate knowing what I, getting myself into so that I can prepare properly.
I will clean the head proactively prior to the first transfer and monitor and relisten to them closely. I lack the technical competence to complete the inversion, as well as a second deck, but I can monitor the transfers and relisten to the completed transfers. I have my old D>A>D transfers of most of these recordings as a fall back.
I appreciate the time everyone took to provide such detailed answers. They really are super helpful and will help me to improve my odds of success.
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I transferred a couple thousand DATs for a radio station. This isn’t nuclear science.
I’d just transfer 3-4 tapes and listen to them and give them a quick look on the DAW of your choice. You’ll see blatant errors as spikes or dropouts.
If they sound good to your ears, I’d continue the process. After each tape is done, give it a quick look on your DAW.
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Great advice from all sides here. I like the double style for important stuff, and I also like Scooter's notion of just get it done and check it out!
Save the original DATs until you're sure you are good to go.
I rolled in some 800 files from DAT over the course of 2010-2011 or so.
Got 850 GB WAV which is like 450 as FLAC...
killed a couple DAT decks that were still hanging on...
still have all the tapes...
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.
I have not had issues using microtrack for transfers from DAT, buit haven't used it in years, using Tascam DR100mklll now Bob
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I see the sound devices 702 can record at 32khz (the good old DAT long play setting). Are there other recorders (preferably with Sd card) with coax input that can handle that? I have a bunch of dat tapes in 32khz…
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the nagra vi can :)
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.
I have not had issues using microtrack for transfers from DAT, buit haven't used it in years, using Tascam DR100mklll now Bob
if you’re not actually looking at the data you are recording and just going by ear, you would probably never know.
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I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.
I have not had issues using microtrack for transfers from DAT, buit haven't used it in years, using Tascam DR100mklll now Bob
if you’re not actually looking at the data you are recording and just going by ear, you would probably never know.
Right, because people are dealing with music - not a data lab. You rode this horse into the ground when you were your other profile.
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+1
Must disagree with Jerry.
Its music, not a wave form. Music is generally judged by the sound to normal persons' ears, not how a wave file looks.
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Right, because people are dealing with music - not a data lab.
that would be a fine take if in fact the errors weren't audible, which often times they are. I'm personally not down with dropped samples and left and right channels swapping randomly in a good number of recordings, when its trivial to replace the weak link in the process. If I'm going to truly "archive" something that will become the standard that tens, hundreds, or possibly thousands of people are going to listen to down the line i want it to be faithful to the original recording, not an inferior copy with accumulated errors. Microtrack's flaws place it technically below the level of line out>line in to any of the common $50-$100 recorders with a line in minijack that works correctly, in regard to audible errors. Most people couldn't AB a D>A>D, where the errors the MT produce are noticeable
you do you tho... there is no "wrong" way to do anything, but also nothing wrong with people having their own standards of acceptability.
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^^^ correct on all points
After years of hearing you beat this topic into the ground I thought I would chime in and support the "other" point of view that a musical recording that sounds good is just fine and that it's bit perfect and/or having gone through some time consuming analysis is 100% not important.
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I thought I would chime in and support the "other" point of view that a musical recording that sounds good is just fine and that it's bit perfect and/or having gone through some time consuming analysis is 100% not important.
correct and there are many people who keep their collections in mp3, make recordings with budget recorders with built-in electret mics (or phones), etc. , who are plenty happy with their collections. That shouldn't preclude us from discussing different ways to do things, and in fact discouraging others from discussion of improving technique and equipment would be somewhat antithetical to the purpose of the site, i reckon...
If anybody wants any help with validating their recording and transfer setups feel free to message me and i can walk you through it.
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Jerry/Jamie, two of us tapers were selected by a national radio station to transfer a couple thousand reels, DATs and CDs into a hard drive in 2019. These were live mobile truck recordings on 16 track machines (or later on ADATs), mixed to 2 track reels, then disseminated to the public via radio and television during weekly and monthly FM and TV programs in the 70's and 80's. They were archived in 2 channel reels and DATs mainly, but someone in the 90s transferred some to CD.
The DAT process took about two years using this protocol: (Tascam DA-20 or DA-30 > SPDIF > Tascam DR680 SD Card > Computer Hard Drive > Glance at Wave file and Quick Spot Listen). We were running 3-4 DATs at a time. My way of doing things, which is similar to others with whom you disagree, was good enough for a national radio station. A casual glance at the wave form will reveal obvious static and drop outs. You can see them if you know what you are looking for. Actually the spot listen was unnecessary (as the read errors were super obvious just looking at the wave file), but we did it anyway. Many here on this board whom I know, received copies of the shows they were interested in, and they can vouch for this process.
And to be brutally honest here after somewhere near 2,800 live shows transferred this exact way, we made only a half dozen glitchy transfers, easily caught. In some instances, the DAT or CD has issues, and we had to go back to the 2 channel reels.
Your way injects too many unnecessary steps into the process with near zero benefit. Hell, I'd still be doing transfers if done your way.
But ultimately its the listener's choice--Jerry/Jamie, if you like the slow, more technical way of transferring DATs and it works for you, then go for it. The radio station we did the transfers for was thrilled with our method to this day.
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Yes, Scooter I can vouch for the process and results. Jerry/Jamie should just stay on the Phish board with his nonsense rhetoric. Will just leave it at that.
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To maybe get this back on track - the OP wants to go toslink in to a computer -
I got a very well used but decently maintained Fostex D5 in 2020 that has taken every tape I've thrown at it since then. I had 2 Tascam DA30 that have worked sporadically but have been much more problematic since then. If you have a significant amount of tapes I'd look at getting a full size deck.
If you find that your D100 is being a pain after many years in storage the D5 is a good fix. It has toslink and AES XLR outputs. Shouldn't cost much more than getting your D100 serviced if you can even find someone to do it.
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Thank you very much to everyone for the advice on this. I have confirmed that my D100 seems to be functioning and picked up a 7 pin cable from rocksuitcase (thank you!).
Between that and my R44, which has coax in, I think I have what I need to give this a go.
I have been lucky enough to do some travelling for shows but am back home for a while and will be able to test all of this out.
Should the D100 not be up to the task, I will definitely look at a D5.
Thanks again to everyone for the advice, it’s super helpful and greatly appreciated!
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Toskink was a short lived consumer interface cable that was rarely used except for deck to deck transfers on a consumer level, and failed when even remotely bent. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you'll find a Toslink to USB cable or interface very easily. AES was more common in professional decks, even those were short lived with the advent of SPDIF.
I have a little Hosa interface which converts AES to SPDIF, but what then? I know of no SPDIF to USB interface.
All these connections and interfaces and converters will add potential cumulative error.
That's why I'd spring for a stand alone deck with a SPDIF output to a recorder which has a SPDIF input and uses a SD card, like my DR680 which can be found fairly cheap these days. If budget is an issue, post a borrow equipment thread. I think you'll find many of us tapers loan gear or will convert small batches of DATs for free.
I think you're on the right track with a R44 which like a DR680 uses a SD Card, which then can be transferred to a hard drive.
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Toskink was a short lived consumer interface cable that was rarely used except for deck to deck transfers on a consumer level, and failed when even remotely bent. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you'll find a Toslink to USB cable or interface very easily. AES was more common in professional decks, even those were short lived with the advent of SPDIF.
Toslink is still a commonly used connector for optical digital cables. Nearly every A/V receiver has a Toslink port and many computer interfaces as well.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/712-MnTfm7L._AC_SL1500_.jpg)
(https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-7exlzlf13h/images/stencil/2000w/products/144/502/Clarett_4Pre-reverse-2400-2400__99210.1685463790.jpg?c=3)
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Interesting. I haven’t seen Toslink or FireWire connections in years, and assume they were obsolete with the advent of USB-C, which easily has the bandwidth to handle multi channels of digital feeds.
Apple’s Thunderbolt is pretty good too
The OP and I communicated off-line and he apparently has a Sony seven pin cable going to a coax adapter Which fits his our 44 machine into a SD card. That should work just fine
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with all respect to goodcooker's comments thread got derailed a bit, reminder of OP's original criteria
Hello,
My apologies for asking a question that no doubt has been answered many times in the distant past, however, I’m a bit behind the times.
Circa 2000 I recorded many jams with a friend on a Sony D100. I also recorded several concerts around the same time. I transferred many of these to digital by going D>A>D back in the day, however, I would like to recapture and master these recordings as the technology available to do so is vastly superior to what I had then. Additionally, I would strongly prefer to capture bit perfect.
I bought one of these to transfer old recordings from a TCD-D8. I use it to connect directly to the coax digital input of a Microtrack II, works great.
https://www.core-sound.com/shop/7-pin
microtrack is not a robust option for DAT transfers. run a DAT a few times and look at the wavs in an editor you will find it drops samples/swaps channels
i mean it can be done, if you want to roll each tape 3 times and piece it together, but thats unnecessary work
I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.
I have not had issues using microtrack for transfers from DAT, buit haven't used it in years, using Tascam DR100mklll now Bob
if you’re not actually looking at the data you are recording and just going by ear, you would probably never know.
getting more in the weeds with this post, i have not found the microtrack to be a reliable bit-perfect interface under any situation. this is after owning the original and two of the MTII, each with various firmwares, so i feel i can dismiss it as an isolated hardware issue. If youre using the DR100 mkIII youre luckily on the right track as that deck is a rock on the digital input, despite its goofy non-standard input and ts easy-to-lose adapter cable
as far as "I find it more reliable than trying to transfer to PC via a soundcard.", there are a lot of different criteria there. the concept of "reliable" (the bar for which could be as low as "records a complete set without stopping" may be your bar... but thats far from bit perfect considering all the variables that can be introduiced in a soundcard transfer (with dropped samples and resampling being the most common). - At some point many soundcard manufacturers gave up the ghost and dumbed down their hardware to just resample anything so their customers wouldnt have to set sample rates to lock a signal. early creative soundcards were the first to do this and it stuck around for awhile. Long story short, not all computer interfaces are alike, some are great, some are fully unaccceptable, and any of them are subject to the variable of how the rest of the computer is set up reliably
Now that we have so many great standalone options that seems to be a better move to eliminate variables for those who dont wish to take the time to test. I have never seen a sony or a tascam with a digital in that wasnt bit perfect (that doesnt mean they dont exist).
some devices known to be absolutely not bit perfect on the digital input
any creative soundcard ive ever seen
microtrack
microtrackII
lectrosonics SPDR
marantz 661 mk III
optical input on mac*
*i cant vouch for *all* macs, it may be possible to set it up to be bit-perfect. i only have experience with looking at transfers done by a mac which were certainly resampled
back to the OP's question, i would try the babyface pro under USB as opposed to optical in. RME's drivers are rock solid and provided you dont select it to resample in the RME control panel it should be bit accurate. Whenever ive used RME gear it wants you to match the sampling frequwncy and lock to the incoming clock
you can easily test the RME like this:
take a short wav, a few minutes long, on your mac.
record it loopback through the RME using the following two methods
usb out>usb in
usb out>optical in.
look at the resulting wavs (either cut them to the exact sample and run checksums on them or use some utility like EAC wave compare, or cut them to the same beginning sample, invert one and mix them, which should result in dead zeros. will take less than 10 minutes to verify your setup.
be alert when transferring old tapes that once in awhile you will come across a tape that sheds like heck and makes your d100 make audible errors. the drum is accessible in that unit and if you get yourself some head cleaner and the non-fiber shedding foam swabs and be gentle with it you should be able to clean it up as needed. if you have problematic tapes (ideally access to another deck which can sometimes do better at error correction) you can sometimes get a better pull from a different deck or piece it together. There is no rhyme or reason to me as to any deck being better than anotehr all the time, sometimes its just that decks particular head alignment in regard to the tape, or youre having a good mojo day. good luck!
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To maybe get this back on track - the OP wants to go toslink in to a computer -
I got a very well used but decently maintained Fostex D5 in 2020 that has taken every tape I've thrown at it since then. I had 2 Tascam DA30 that have worked sporadically but have been much more problematic since then. If you have a significant amount of tapes I'd look at getting a full size deck.
If you find that your D100 is being a pain after many years in storage the D5 is a good fix. It has toslink and AES XLR outputs. Shouldn't cost much more than getting your D100 serviced if you can even find someone to do it.
i second all of this
good used decks are out there but nowadays you gotta hope they outlast your transfer project as service is expensive and hard to come by. as cooker mentioned you may not even find anyone to service that D100 on parts availability alone. i have a rack of decks including multiple panasonic 3700s, sony R500s and a fostex D5 if you get stuck i can roll some for you
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fostex 5d is the best dat machine ever made. easy to take the cover off and clean the drum head if necessary. play that into a tascam da-3000. play everything into the da-3000.
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One thing that I wonder about in all this is pre-emphasis. All the Sony portable DAT recorders, like the PCM-F1-type recorders before them, recorded with a prescribed 10 dB shelving treble boost with inflection points at 3.183 kHz and 10.610 kHz (50 and 15 μsec "time constants"). This helped overcome the noise of early A/D converters. The recording on tape, and the S/P-DIF data stream coming out of the digital output on playback, had a flag bit set, which indicated that any playback equipment needed to correct this pre-emphasis by rolling off the treble according to the inverse of the same curve.
But this flag bit has no counterpart in a .wav file, the practice has faded out as converters have improved over the decades, and with that, awareness of the issue has faded as well. If you transfer a pre-emphasized recording to a .wav file, you need to be clearly aware that it's been treble-boosted by some 10 dB in the top 2-3 octaves, and deal with it accordingly. You could burn audio CDs from that data and set the pre-emphasis flag in the process; any proper CD player should see that flag and engage its de-emphasis circuit to give you back the original sound. (They do not all do so equally well.) Or there are programs that can remove the pre-emphasis from a .wav file, a process which should give you most if not all of the originally intended noise reduction effect; that's how I prefer to handle my old PCM-F1 and DAT recordings; it's closer to being foolproof.
But if you (or someone else in the future who may not know that this issue even exists) simply play(s) back pre-emphasized wave audio data without de-emphasis, it will be bright/harsh sounding relative to the original signal. I was surprised to read this thread without seeing any reference at all to this issue. It needs to be handled judiciously.
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Gee, Dsatz, you ask for people to know what they are doing!
I'll also note that my experience is that DAT preemphasis was abandoned fairly early, but not all decks have the playback deemphasis even available (like SV3700-3800). As Dsatz notes, the DAT digital output will have the preemphasis. At least Sonys will light up an indicator to tell you, but the decks I've seen only do the deemphasis on the analog outputs.
Computer CD drives have a similar problem, some don't recognize the emphasis bit at all so analog and digital outputs still have the preemphasis.
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If you played the DAT back in the same type deck it was recorded on would it not correct for that while playing? Or does it only correct to the analog output and not the digital?
What program do you use to remove the pre-emphasis?
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10 dB shelving treble boost with inflection points at 3.183 kHz and 10.610 kHz
But if you (or someone else in the future who may not know that this issue even exists) simply play(s) back pre-emphasized wave audio data without de-emphasis, it will be bright/harsh sounding relative to the original signal. I was surprised to read this thread without seeing any reference at all to this issue. It needs to be handled judiciously.
Seems like a 10 dB treble boost would be very bright sounding. I've transferred 100s of tapes recorded on Sony portables and never run into this "issue". Not once. Maybe the deck I'm using is doing the lifting same as all the other folks who don't have any issues.
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10 dB shelving treble boost with inflection points at 3.183 kHz and 10.610 kHz
But if you (or someone else in the future who may not know that this issue even exists) simply play(s) back pre-emphasized wave audio data without de-emphasis, it will be bright/harsh sounding relative to the original signal. I was surprised to read this thread without seeing any reference at all to this issue. It needs to be handled judiciously.
Seems like a 10 dB treble boost would be very bright sounding. I've transferred 100s of tapes recorded on Sony portables and never run into this "issue". Not once. Maybe the deck I'm using is doing the lifting same as all the other folks who don't have any issues.
I've also never run across a dat with pre-emphasis encoded on it. I'd really only expect it to be at all likely from recordings from the 80s.
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Only the first few years of DATs even had emphasis. At least the first Sony PCM2500s had it as a switchable option during recording, with an indicator in playback. Later Sony models did not seem to offer it for recording, but kept the playback indicator showing the deemphasis filter was in use on analog output when the bit was set.
I got burned a few times before figuring out our early portable DAT, a Teac DA-P20 (AKA Casio DA-7), used emphasis and never mentioned it. Playback on a Sony would show that, but none of our Panasonics (SV3700-3800) would. I can't remember now, but it's possible the Panasonics didn't even have deemphasis, even on analog.
Here's a pic of the CD/DAT curve. If you search, I've seen a tabular chart version, too. You should be able to estimate it with a DAW, or there is probably a plug-in. I think this graph is from the Red Book.
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Glad I waited until the early '90s to get a DAT deck. Bob
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there is probably a plug-in
Waves Q10 (the plug in) has a preset for this and other types of corrective EQ curves for various needs.
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I see the sound devices 702 can record at 32khz (the good old DAT long play setting). Are there other recorders (preferably with Sd card) with coax input that can handle that? I have a bunch of dat tapes in 32khz…
Over the years oflooking into this questions I only found two portable recorders that support 32Khz input:
- Creative Labs Nomad JukeBox 3 (built in hard drive) - what I used 10+ years ago
- Sound Devices 7xx series - I would look into now
Other wise look into a sound card solution
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I see the sound devices 702 can record at 32khz (the good old DAT long play setting). Are there other recorders (preferably with Sd card) with coax input that can handle that? I have a bunch of dat tapes in 32khz…
Over the years oflooking into this questions I only found two portable recorders that support 32Khz input:
- Creative Labs Nomad JukeBox 3 (built in hard drive) - what I used 10+ years ago
- Sound Devices 7xx series - I would look into now
Other wise look into a sound card solution
Dug up my Nomad not too long ago and it still boots up.
Sadly, I've no way to transfer audio from it.
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I see the sound devices 702 can record at 32khz (the good old DAT long play setting). Are there other recorders (preferably with Sd card) with coax input that can handle that? I have a bunch of dat tapes in 32khz…
Over the years oflooking into this questions I only found two portable recorders that support 32Khz input:
- Creative Labs Nomad JukeBox 3 (built in hard drive) - what I used 10+ years ago
- Sound Devices 7xx series - I would look into now
Other wise look into a sound card solution
I just found a description of the SD-702, and it says "PCM audio at 16 or 24 bits with sampling rates between 32 kHz and 192"
But DAT long play mode is 12 bits. Are you certain that it can handle the format?
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I just transfer those DATs via analog. I doubt anyone could audibly tell the difference.
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I just transfer those DATs via analog. I doubt anyone could audibly tell the difference.
Probably not, but digital copying would be easier and probably less likely to have transfer issues.