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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: goodcooker on July 22, 2024, 01:07:33 PM
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I know the title of this thread is goofy but with all the talk of 32 bit and all of it's cures for our ills (which is perfectly true in our use case and being able to set and forget) I find myself heading in the opposite direction. I recently got a Nakamichi 500 cassette deck at Goodwill. I got it home and gave it a thorough cleaning and it turns out that all of the functions work as they should. This deck has all the same features as the 550 (employed by Mike the Mic and many others) the only difference is that it is AC power only.
3 mic inputs - left, right and blend (center) on TRS jacks
stereo line inputs and outputs
VU meters (that have extended range compared to most consumer decks at the time -40 to +5)
limiter
Dolby
faders for all inputs and the summed output plus a headphone socket
The plan is to use a set of the Nak 300 mics which a taper in MN was nice enough to sell me for a fair price straight into the mic pres on the unit and record the Blues Traveler - Big Head Todd double bill in a few weeks at my home base outdoor venue. I'm friendly with the stage manager FOH and light guys so I can make arrangements for them to bring in my stuff ahead of time to skip drama at the door.
Kinda looking forward to using media that spins again! Got a NOS 5 pack of Maxell XLii 90s 8)
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That’s awesome….cant wait to hear it!
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Sweet! I can almost smell those XLII's.
Savor the build up of internal drama in anticipation of the retro tape flip!
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If I had a reliable source of good cassettes I’d consider running a pmd-430 again. I pulled some heat on that deck back in the day.
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Sweet! I can almost smell those XLII's.
Savor the build up of internal drama in anticipation of the retro tape flip!
I am weirdly anxious about this already and the show is three weeks away.
I might do the tape 1 side A + tape 2 side A for band 1 and side B for band 2. That way you don't have to furiously rewind and restart tape 1 side B you swap instead of flip. Rewind side B at set break if needed.
But yeah, I'm going to be nervous about it and my GF will find no end of poking fun at me for it. Running the A10 off the line out as a backup/patch source in case I run out of tape or screw up.
If I had a reliable source of good cassettes I’d consider running a pmd-430 again. I pulled some heat on that deck back in the day.
I buy used once cassettes at the local record store for $1 each for fooling around with. For NOS there's always ebay and Reverb if you don't mind paying $4-5 each. I bought the 5 pack of Maxells for $18 and $5 shipping.
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love this.
As someone who started taping in '02, and trading "tapes" a few years earlier...I missed the analog era. Part of me immediately thinks like "well how do you back things up...what about degradation...etc." and the other part of me is like "fuck it, just listen to the tapes...it'll be fine, and someday they'll disintegrate" (though that would take a lot of listening).
Of course you can always just back it up digitally.
Anyway, big into the idea of a more analog lifestyle...
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Wait, you're telling me there's a market for recorded-once cassettes? I've got about 80 assorted 90-100 minute high bias tapes (mostly XLIIs, some SAs, XLIISs, etc.) I would love to get the eff out of my closet.
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Yes there’s a market!
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Wait, you're telling me there's a market for recorded-once cassettes? I've got about 80 assorted 90-100 minute high bias tapes (mostly XLIIs, some SAs, XLIISs, etc.) I would love to get the eff out of my closet.
For sure. Cassettes have had a resurgence in popularity and with the scarcity of New Old Stock people are using used once high bias tapes like Maxell XLii instead. Call down to your local independent record store first and see if they are interested in a bulk buy. If not Reverb or ebay.
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I find this very appealing and I really can’t explain why. The first live recording I ever made was on a cassette deck. I was 16 and my parents hired my friends band to play their Millenium New Years Eve party. The day of the party I saw that our living room cassette deck had a 1/4 input, so I borrowed an old crappy mic (probably Radio Shack) from my friend and hung it from the ceiling fan that was over and in front of the band (unbeknownst to me as the sweet spot). 1st and only live analog recording I ever made as I got a minidisc recorder a little later on. Still have the master!
I’ve been listening to a bunch of Mike Millard recordings and one of my first thoughts was how much time and energy we spend discussing, studying, criticizing, and even arguing about these (increasingly) complicated (and potentially excessive) modern digital formats. And here’s Mike almost 50 years ago, using only 2 (1970’s) condensor microphones and a cassette recorder, making some smokin recordings by GETTING IN THE RIGHT SPOT IN THE VENUE. Inspiration and a lesson in there for all of us.
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I started in the days of negative bit recordings. My first portable recorder made by EMI had valves and a 7 minute battery life. Anyway, when I finally stopped using cassettes for any kind of recording purpose, I had quite a pile of wrapped new cassettes left over which are still stored away here. Sell now, or wait till they become even more in demand? I guess I will refer to them specifically in my will. Meanwhile however I still have a two track and a four track cassette decks set up in my permanent transcription-to-digital rack. And one day I will start the task!
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Great fun! I used to record frequently in a club in Vancouver where I had full access to the soundboard, power, etc. I always wanted to take a reel to reel deck there to record, but sadly never did.
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Low-fi is still low-fi.
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Low-fi is still low-fi.
Say you've never heard a good cassette rig without saying you've never heard a good cassette rig.
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I made a lot of great recordings with my great little cassette rig in the 1980s. That said, I so wish I had the gear I have now to record many of the shows I saw then. If nothing else (and there are a lot of reasons why), I no longer have to live through shows on a 45 minute cycle of wondering if the tape will run out at the wrong moment and then stealthily swap and stow cassettes in the dark.
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On the tape flip-
The home deck I used extensively in the 80's and 90's was a Yamaha K720. Loved it, still have it. Made many, many mix-tapes on that thing, using some great features which also applied to live recording, but I only ever hauled it out to tape a live band once. Story on that in a bit. One of the features that enabled many others was a function that sensed start/end of the leader at both ends of the tape. One function that used that was a tape counter-calibration thing - you'd push a button and the deck would fast forward until it sensed the tail lead-out, the counter would reset to zero, then the deck would rewind to either the precise start of tape at the end of the head lead-in, or to whatever mid-reel position the tape was in when the function was engaged. It would then display a super-accurate countdown to the precise end of the tape. Additionally, it could be set to auto-fade-out about a second prior to reaching the end, stop, or auto-reverse with a gap of just milliseconds. The super quick auto-reverse was made possible by the tail-lead sensor, which would engage immediately as soon as the tail-lead out was sensed just prior to the leader actually reaching the heads. Cool stuff, and when enabled, the auto-reverse actually tracked really well on that deck. Combined with a couple other playback decks and a CD player that had a "search for and loop the highest peak" function, it was a mix-tape making dream.
I only once hauled it out to record a live band, 1987-ish. More often back then I was doing my own 4track stuff or recording bands in non-live situations using the 4track, mixing that down to this deck. The one time I did was to record a live show off a friend's band. I unwrapped a fresh XLIIS, plugged in a couple SM57's, set levels, engaged the DBX noise reduction I otherwise rarely used, had it do the FFW to end counter-reset thing, set it to auto reverse at the end of side A and not fade-out at the end of side B. I still recall the anticipation watching the counter count down approaching zero with my finger hovering over the "reverse" button awaiting the end of a song, but not actually pushing the button and watching the auto-reverse happen just after the song ended only a few seconds before they launched into the next. I then relaxed and enjoyed the rest of their set. At the end of the set I just let it run and it auto-faded out about 5 min later. Serendipitous. Listening later with the band, playing back the master using the same deck, I intentionally didn't mention the approaching auto-flip in the tiny gap between songs and it occurred so quickly that only one of the guys noticed the brief dropout. I think it was actually the noise of the transport reversing that called his attention to it. Amazed, we ended up listening the to flip a few times over.
Different era, different gear, different feel and approach, and the taper's connection to making the recording is different. Even though I'd not want to reverse the evolution of digital recording making it so much easier, better, and more cost-effective, mechanical analog recording was and remains cool. Even cooler now that its no longer the norm.
Enjoy the little vacation from digital. That Blues Traveler / Big Head Todd double bill seems a perfect match for it. Good strategy to use tape 1 side A + tape 2 side A for band 1 and side B for band 2, rewinding the side B's at set break.
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Low-fi is still low-fi.
Never Let Your Fire Go Out!
https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=5WhXA9tmrVY&list=OLAK5uy_lww-W5_XJIYZibY6za2Y6z0Upk1zxDaE4 (https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=5WhXA9tmrVY&list=OLAK5uy_lww-W5_XJIYZibY6za2Y6z0Upk1zxDaE4)
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Sweet! I can almost smell those XLII's.
Savor the build up of internal drama in anticipation of the retro tape flip!
I am weirdly anxious about this already and the show is three weeks away.
I might do the tape 1 side A + tape 2 side A for band 1 and side B for band 2. That way you don't have to furiously rewind and restart tape 1 side B you swap instead of flip. Rewind side B at set break if needed.
But yeah, I'm going to be nervous about it and my GF will find no end of poking fun at me for it. Running the A10 off the line out as a backup/patch source in case I run out of tape or screw up.
If I had a reliable source of good cassettes I’d consider running a pmd-430 again. I pulled some heat on that deck back in the day.
I buy used once cassettes at the local record store for $1 each for fooling around with. For NOS there's always ebay and Reverb if you don't mind paying $4-5 each. I bought the 5 pack of Maxells for $18 and $5 shipping.
I'd go with the Side A + Side A for band 1. We used to call that the "California method" because many of us tapers on the East coast had never seen anyone do that until 1984/85 when some of us went west. iirc, it was the Poris-Olness crew who got us into that. If you know there is a set break it is the best bet as you can rewind to the beginning of Side B of each tape between bands/sets
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If you can find a Cristal clear plastic BIC pen, it allows a manual rewind (or FF) on Tape 1 whilst Tape 2 runs it's 46 minutes...
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/13f3bc53-8821-414d-aec0-13c291452a34.45a02709e35b9f61a5c6c52d3696099f.jpeg?odnHeight=160&odnWidth=160&odnBg=FFFFFF)
Our theory was that BIC had tapers in their engineering dept. :)
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(https://i.imgflip.com/2t6rzu.jpg)
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Sweet! I can almost smell those XLII's.
Savor the build up of internal drama in anticipation of the retro tape flip!
I am weirdly anxious about this already and the show is three weeks away.
I might do the tape 1 side A + tape 2 side A for band 1 and side B for band 2. That way you don't have to furiously rewind and restart tape 1 side B you swap instead of flip. Rewind side B at set break if needed.
But yeah, I'm going to be nervous about it and my GF will find no end of poking fun at me for it. Running the A10 off the line out as a backup/patch source in case I run out of tape or screw up.
If I had a reliable source of good cassettes I’d consider running a pmd-430 again. I pulled some heat on that deck back in the day.
I buy used once cassettes at the local record store for $1 each for fooling around with. For NOS there's always ebay and Reverb if you don't mind paying $4-5 each. I bought the 5 pack of Maxells for $18 and $5 shipping.
I'd go with the Aide A + Side A for band 1. We used to call that the "California method" because many of us tapers on the East coast had never seen anyone do that until 1984/85 when some of us went west. iirc, it was the Poris-Olness crew who got us into that. If you know there is a set break it is the best bet as you can rewind to the beginning of Side B of each tape between bands/sets
That's funny! I came up with this method for myself on the East coast back in the 1970s. I also used to put a small tab of Scotch tape with a little fold in it on the A side of cassettes so I could easily orient them in the dark. I'd record the A side of the second cassette after the A side of the first cassette and then switch to the B side of the first cassette -- after winding it manually to the beginning of the actual magnetic tape on the B side. How I miss those da...no, actually, I do not.
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It did add a lot more drama to taping. I enjoy set and forget now, where I can just hit record and then 18 hrs later hit stop. But I have way more nostalgia for cassette than dat. If I never see another dat tape, that’s ok by me.
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It did add a lot more drama to taping. I enjoy set and forget now, where I can just hit record and then 18 hrs later hit stop. But I have way more nostalgia for cassette than dat. If I never see another dat tape, that’s ok by me.
I somehow skipped digital audio tape all together and went straight from cassettes to mini discs briefly and then on to IRivers. I think I lucked out.
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Sweet! I can almost smell those XLII's.
Savor the build up of internal drama in anticipation of the retro tape flip!
I am weirdly anxious about this already and the show is three weeks away.
I might do the tape 1 side A + tape 2 side A for band 1 and side B for band 2. That way you don't have to furiously rewind and restart tape 1 side B you swap instead of flip. Rewind side B at set break if needed.
But yeah, I'm going to be nervous about it and my GF will find no end of poking fun at me for it. Running the A10 off the line out as a backup/patch source in case I run out of tape or screw up.
If I had a reliable source of good cassettes I’d consider running a pmd-430 again. I pulled some heat on that deck back in the day.
I buy used once cassettes at the local record store for $1 each for fooling around with. For NOS there's always ebay and Reverb if you don't mind paying $4-5 each. I bought the 5 pack of Maxells for $18 and $5 shipping.
I'd go with the Aide A + Side A for band 1. We used to call that the "California method" because many of us tapers on the East coast had never seen anyone do that until 1984/85 when some of us went west. iirc, it was the Poris-Olness crew who got us into that. If you know there is a set break it is the best bet as you can rewind to the beginning of Side B of each tape between bands/sets
That's funny! I came up with this method for myself on the East coast back in the 1970s. I also used to put a small tab of Scotch tape with a little fold in it on the A side of cassettes so I could easily orient them in the dark. I'd record the A side of the second cassette after the A side of the first cassette and then switch to the B side of the first cassette -- after winding it manually to the beginning of the actual magnetic tape on the B side. How I miss those da...no, actually, I do not.
lol i do not miss them either +T >:D
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As of about 10 or 15 years ago I used to tape FOB with a dude that ran inter-leaved Uher reels. Had to thread them about every 15 minutes. And juggle D cells between 2 decks, *and* the custom mic splitter he built to feed both decks circa 1976. And I've run outdoors in the rain with him. It was a sight to behold.
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As of about 10 or 15 years ago I used to tape FOB with a dude that ran inter-leaved Uher reels. Had to thread them about every 15 minutes. And juggle D cells between 2 decks, *and* the custom mic splitter he built to feed both decks circa 1976. And I've run outdoors in the rain with him. It was a sight to behold.
We need to create an award system for acts of taping heroism!
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As of about 10 or 15 years ago I used to tape FOB with a dude that ran inter-leaved Uher reels. Had to thread them about every 15 minutes. And juggle D cells between 2 decks, *and* the custom mic splitter he built to feed both decks circa 1976. And I've run outdoors in the rain with him. It was a sight to behold.
We need to create an award system for acts of taping heroism!
Outdoors in the rain! That's Hall of Fame worthy.
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As of about 10 or 15 years ago I used to tape FOB with a dude that ran inter-leaved Uher reels. Had to thread them about every 15 minutes. And juggle D cells between 2 decks, *and* the custom mic splitter he built to feed both decks circa 1976. And I've run outdoors in the rain with him. It was a sight to behold.
Your friend at the airport - "I'd rather not have this briefcase go through the Xray"
TSA - "What's in it?"
Him - "A Railroad Earth show"
TSA - ???
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^Yup.
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Before there were cassettes, people smuggled in reel to reel recorders.
One of the most compact was the Nagra SN, originally ordered by the CIA and later used by Israel's Mossad, and of course one could purchase it and use to record shows, as it used both dynamic and condenser mikes.
Want a piece of history?
It's yours for only $18,0000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Awesome!
My friend, TJ, used to use a Nagra SN, mono to do Dead shows:either 17 or 20 minute reels. :o
https://www.ebay.com/itm/387225385494
I have some Blues Traveler shows he did with my mics and his deck. the analog goodness is all >:D over them.
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I have just spend a long weekend with my son who, like me, emigrated from the UK to Australia. While I was with him he suddenly said, hey Dad, have a look at this crate of stuff I put in the loft after I moved from the UK all those years ago. In it were my childhood toys and - a JVC CD-1636 Super ANRS Portable Cassette Deck which was my first valve-free portable. Not stealth. Remarkably heavy! Sadly it wasn't practical to bring it from his place in Adelaide to my place in Melbourne on this occasion but I would love to see if it still works, one day. I have some Super ANRS tapes in my archive which should really be transcribed with that rather than any flavour of Dolby. It was weird to suddenly see it again - I didn't recall leaving it in his care 25 years back!
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Ok you got me. I bought a box of NOS XLIIS 90s and a pmd430 today.
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Before there were cassettes, people smuggled in reel to reel recorders.
One of the most compact was the Nagra SN, originally ordered by the CIA and later used by Israel's Mossad, and of course one could purchase it and use to record shows, as it used both dynamic and condenser mikes.
Want a piece of history?
It's yours for only $18,0000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
The Nagra Pico is being blown out for $230 US (no VAT), but I cannot do another recorder.
I've also never done business with Pink Noise Systems in UK before.
I have no idea if it is concert-worthy.
It has more than 0 bits...
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This is awesome. Tape sounds fantastic.
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Before there were cassettes, people smuggled in reel to reel recorders.
One of the most compact was the Nagra SN, originally ordered by the CIA and later used by Israel's Mossad, and of course one could purchase it and use to record shows, as it used both dynamic and condenser mikes.
Want a piece of history?
It's yours for only $18,0000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY (https://www.ebay.com/itm/333289549152?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=NDw_TPURRj6&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=0A0mnt5BQWW&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)
The Nagra Pico is being blown out for $230 US (no VAT), but I cannot do another recorder.
I've also never done business with Pink Noise Systems in UK before.
I have no idea if it is concert-worthy.
It has more than 0 bits...
The nagra pico would be tempting if it did 5v PIP
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Ok you got me. I bought a box of NOS XLIIS 90s and a pmd430 today.
Awesome
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Ok you got me. I bought a box of NOS XLIIS 90s and a pmd430 today.
grawk- tapeheads.net is all things analog.
if you are interested in used once Maxells, I have multitudes I'd sell for lower than the going rate.
On Tapeheads you will see people selling tapes, mostly NOS, but also used. The International market for cassettes is actually quite large.
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Looking forward to everyone's analog recordings. Big Head Todd and Blues Traveler should be really cool.
I am also very interested to hear modern microphones with older analog recording technology. Especially anyone running the same cassette recorder as Mike Millard (like goodcooker), as I've heard a lot of Mike's recordings by now and I am curious how some Line Audio's etc would sound with that gear.
I'm also reminded of some emails I exchanged with Doug Oade last year; he said some of the new chip designs that have become available just in the last couple years "really make a big difference". Anyone up to hit up Doug about some cassette recorder upgrades?? haha
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Looking forward to everyone's analog recordings. Big Head Todd and Blues Traveler should be really cool.
I am also very interested to hear modern microphones with older analog recording technology. Especially anyone running the same cassette recorder as Mike Millard (like goodcooker), as I've heard a lot of Mike's recordings by now and I am curious how some Line Audio's etc would sound with that gear.
I'm also reminded of some emails I exchanged with Doug Oade last year; he said some of the new chip designs that have become available just in the last couple years "really make a big difference". Anyone up to hit up Doug about some cassette recorder upgrades?? haha
going OT, but to your point.
OADE brothers modded several of our Sony TC-D5M's. we had a transformerless pre-amp mod, a line in mod and had them set bias for Maxell Metal tapes on two of them. All in all I was responsible for having six D5's modded by the OADE's. (1984-1987)
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I do apologize for the OT, but you guys got me jazzed on analog.
Would love to hear some of your Oade mod cassette aud's if you got links to the LMA. PM me or if goodcooker doesn't mind posting them here. If not no worries.
I love how goodcooker got the Naks 300s, it just makes sense. I'm hoping there's other tapers at Blues Traveler/BHT and we can compare. But I just can't help thinking about how modern mics, modern tech/ chips/ opamps, and modern A>D chips would sound using the cassette recording medium. It's not like the old tech was crappy, I just like the idea of taking all of our modern gear/tech advancement (including preamps) but using cassettes as the medium. Sounds like some of you could be running multiple rigs!
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[snip..] I just can't help thinking about how modern mics, modern tech/ chips/ opamps, and modern A>D chips would sound using the cassette recording medium. It's not like the old tech was crappy, I just like the idea of taking all of our modern gear/tech advancement (including preamps) but using cassettes as the medium.
If that's the thing of most interest, it would be easier to take any of the alternate digital recordings and transfer them to tape afterward.. at leisure, with levels set perfectly and side-flips figured out. Doing that would make for a good direct comparison against the original digital recordings, and a secondary fun comp with Goodcooker's straight to analog recording.
To me the fun thing about this is having fun with tape and classic analog gear including the mics of that era! But it will be cool to hear and compare.
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I do apologize for the OT, but you guys got me jazzed on analog.
Would love to hear some of your Oade mod cassette aud's if you got links to the LMA. PM me or if goodcooker doesn't mind posting them here. If not no worries.
I love how goodcooker got the Naks 300s, it just makes sense. I'm hoping there's other tapers at Blues Traveler/BHT and we can compare. But I just can't help thinking about how modern mics, modern tech/ chips/ opamps, and modern A>D chips would sound using the cassette recording medium. It's not like the old tech was crappy, I just like the idea of taking all of our modern gear/tech advancement (including preamps) but using cassettes as the medium. Sounds like some of you could be running multiple rigs!
I don't have any issues with anyone posting on topic info of any sort. I'd love to hear some shows recorded with cassette decks that were optimized for performance. Link em up if you got em!
After I found the deck I was kinda kicking myself for selling my CM300s. They weren't getting much use so I let them go. I was lucky enough to find a set of 3 with everything they came with - the cardioid and omni capsules, windscreens and ball head covers. I'm pretty stoked to get the 100% Nak rig going at this show. I'll probably run my KM140s and Mixpre6 alongside it to compare.
In the coming week I'm going to try out the "blend" mic by setting it up in front of my playback and adding/subtracting the middle mic to see what it does to the stereo image. I know that in 3 mic arrangements the forward facing mid mic can interfere with the stereo image if used with a heavy hand so I hope I can see how it behaves in an at home test. Since everything from the mixer gets summed to 2 track stereo before going to the record head I can't undo what's done at the time of the recording and monitoring is not likely to be very effective in front of a 100,000 watt PA system.
The other wrinkle with monitoring is that the headphone jack on the deck doesn't have a dedicated level control and is controlled by the same fader that controls the line out - which I will have a Sony A10 patched into for a backup. If I'm understanding this correctly - in the absence of a block diagram - the output is the same signal being delivered to the record head but since it's a 2 head deck it's being split off at the mixer.
I bought a demagnetizer and gave the deck a going over but I don't have time before the show to get it to my local guy for a tune up. He can't squeeze me in with all he has going on being the only guy in town who works on vintage audio gear. I would really like to do some formal tests but I'm opening a new restaurant in a month and, honestly, my hair is kind of on fire right now with all the plate spinning going on...
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Curious to hear your plan on which caps to use? Three cards? Omni center? Those two options represent the traditional arrangement.. and they require less spacing than omnis with a card in the center really needs to shine, much less three omnis.
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Curious to hear your plan on which caps to use? Three cards? Omni center? Those two options represent the traditional arrangement.. and they require less spacing than omnis with a card in the center really needs to shine, much less three omnis.
I'm thinking three cards. It's an outdoor venue that holds about 1500 maxed out. This show is the first one I've attended that has seats - usually it's SRO GA - so a wide mic bar to accommodate omnis will likely be in the way of older, seated and possibly grouchy patrons. Cards in NOS will cover the PAS angle. The line arrays are mounted wide about 90 feet. I've had good results with directional mics at this venue but never tried omnis due to slap back echo and crowd chatter. Subcards with a wide split and narrow angle has worked well.
There's some slapback from the building at the back and some from the concrete side walls but it's only noticeable close to those areas. The FOH enclosure where I'll be is pretty close maybe 70 feet from the stage and the venue is maybe 200 feet deep and 300 wide. The PA is huge and could cover a much larger area. They spent some serious coin on the PA and the FOH sweet spot is close.
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Agreed that three cards is the safer bet and probably the best way way to go. If you weren't mixing down to 2-ch stereo until later I'd suggest an omni in the middle, as i suspect that would make for a better addition to a standard NOS pair, providing low-frequency extension and weight on the low-end and some openness up top without collapsing the stereo image as much in the cardioid "presence region" when blended in at the same level as a cardioid.
From my own experience with dialing in the level of the center vs the L/R pair afterward by ear- it's very satisfying to do, but usually a bit of fidgety thing to get perfect, so probably best to go with a safe, somewhat lower level from the center mic. Without playing around with it via trial runs in that venue or one similar it'll be difficult to nail perfectly, and even then the optimal mix will vary from performance to performance. Too much center will make the resulting recording overly mono and sort of boring, while none at all will just revert to standard NOS (or whatever config you setup the outer pair as), so the safer bet will be to use a bit less center "blend" than you might otherwise be tempted to use. Obviously nothing you don't already know here.
Ideally, the presence of that center microphone allows you to space the L/R mics farther apart, or angle them more widely, or a bit of both, but that's counter to the needs of the situation you describe, so just plan to use less of the center. If you were in a situation where you were able to space them or angle them more widely, you could expect to be abler to use more level from the center mic. For example, the 3 supercardioid channels that make up the L/C/R center portion of my current arrangement usually get mixed down to stereo with C at around the same level as the L/R pair. But while the angle between the L and R mics is the same as NOS (90 degrees), the spacing between them is around twice NOS spacing, which accommodates the center microphone while keeping the L/R pair angled forward as much as I like. Without the center channel, that wider arrangement would produce a weak center, but with the center mic in use that change allows more room for it in the mix.
But you might consider widening the L/R angle a bit, even if that will point the L/R pair somewhat farther off-axis from the PA. Doing that won't make the array any wider physically so it wont impact sightline concerns, and a wider angle is likely to be less of a potential problem outdoors than it might indoors. A wider ORTF angle of 120 degrees while retaining the NOS spacing of 12" would be a safe bet and allow the 3-mic arrangement to differentiate itself a bit more in comparison to the typical 2-channel mic setups. But just an idea, you know the venue and the sound you like the best.
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...it would be easier to take any of the alternate digital recordings and transfer them to tape afterward.. at leisure, with levels set perfectly and side-flips figured out. Doing that would make for a good direct comparison against the original digital recordings, and a secondary fun comp with Goodcooker's straight to analog recording.
I reaally wanna hear never-digitized audio, using [insert favorite mics] > Sonosax/ V2 > cassette recorder. :) Then listen to the master cassette on my home playback! Would I be able to hear the difference between that and a digital > analog transfer? Honestly, probably not haha.
I'm thinking three cards.
A 3-mic LCR with 3 cards will sound juicy. I've done a few LCR's this year and I really liked moving the center mic forward (recommended by gut) about ~4-5 inches but I was really close to the stage at a medium loud jazz show. YMMV
Hopefully a living room test will reveal at least a starting point of the amount of center mic to mix in. With your experience, you should be able to get it close.
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Perhaps a bit off topic but maybe a musical interlude is needed at this stage of the thread. Here's a recording which had to be 'bitified' for distribution, but it started off as a recording on a Yamaha 4 track cassette deck which is still beside me as I type after all those years. The "MT44" ran at normal speed, none of that double-speed cheating. The event was a public concert, for schoolchildren would you believe, and was properly mic'd rather than it being any kind of stealth cassette thing, so maybe it's kind of cheating. But never mind the non-technicalities, it's such a great performance. Enjoy! (I hope).
https://youtu.be/bROAcMwL3Bs?si=_aQ38sdwooWvRIGB
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^ Small world. I still have my MT44 I bought back in the mid-80's that I should get working again to transfers some 35+ year old tapes. Needs a little adhesive sticker on the cassette to put the deck in 4-track mode instead of 2-ch stereo mode.
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ozpeter- listening now thanks
...it would be easier to take any of the alternate digital recordings and transfer them to tape afterward.. at leisure, with levels set perfectly and side-flips figured out. Doing that would make for a good direct comparison against the original digital recordings, and a secondary fun comp with Goodcooker's straight to analog recording.
I reaally wanna hear never-digitized audio, using [insert favorite mics] > Sonosax/ V2 > cassette recorder. :) Then listen to the master cassette on my home playback! Would I be able to hear the difference between that and a digital > analog transfer? Honestly, probably not haha.
chanher, I've been taking off cassettes since 2019 using Nakamichi 680ZX or LX5 > Benchmark AD2k > Marantz PMD661 digi in. (24/48 as I do not have the server space to work with 96 kHz files)
I've told many friends that listening to the tape off the deck via headphones is the closest thing to "being back there" that I have experienced.
There are times when I would swear the digital copy is almost as good as the master.
I was gonna PM you with my GD links, but here is one using that set-up It is an early Blues Traveler recording
https://archive.org/details/bt1989-11-27.aud-holbrook
and here is a Edie Brickell and New Bos using Beyer M201's AUD
https://archive.org/details/losbuttex1989-07-31.beyer
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Ozpeter, I've never heard of The Michael Garrick Trio but what a lovely recording (and performance). That piano intro is sooo smooooth. Listening on studio monitors at high volume, I love how you can suddenly "hear the room" on those first snare hits. I've been trying to do jazz multitracks for a while now and that's the vibe I'm going for. Too bad you can't really do analog multitracks but I definitely want to try some stereo onstage jazz recordings on cassette. Kinda stating the obvious, but analog just smooths everything out, particularly hihat/cymbals.
rocksuitcase that Edie Brickell recording is excellent. So punchy and smooth. Am I crazy or does the 24-bit flac stream sound significantly better than the mp3's (that you can stream from the top of the show's home page)? It seems a much bigger difference than our digital recordings.
The Blues Traveler recording is cool seeing how goodcooker will be capturing them on cassette some 35 years later.
rocksuitcase also pointed me towards some of his GD recordings with Oade mod cassette decks and when I get a chance to go through some I will post the links here.
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^ Small world. I still have my MT44 I bought back in the mid-80's that I should get working again to transfers some 35+ year old tapes. Needs a little adhesive sticker on the cassette to put the deck in 4-track mode instead of 2-ch stereo mode.
My MT44 machine seems to have a bit of something like insulation tape inside the cassette compartment between the spindles. I suspect that under that is one of the magic stickers permanently in place, to avoid the need to stick one on each cassette. And presumably having it in four track mode all the time just means not record-enabling the unrequired tracks when only stereo mode is needed. But I think I probably only used it for four track stuff, having a plethora of normal cassette decks for two track recordings - the best of which is on the same rack as the MT44 and the rest are in the garage (in plastic crates).
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Ozpeter, I've never heard of The Michael Garrick Trio but what a lovely recording (and performance). That piano intro is sooo smooooth. Listening on studio monitors at high volume, I love how you can suddenly "hear the room" on those first snare hits. I've been trying to do jazz multitracks for a while now and that's the vibe I'm going for....
I used to be a classical music recording engineer for a living and when Michael used to ask me to record jazz - for free! - I tended to take a minimalist classical approach. For this recording I may have only had a stereo mic on the piano, and a single mic each for the bass and drums. Just possibly the bass was a direct feed from a pickup on the instrument supplemented by spill into the piano mic nearby. Sometime simple is best!
Dear Mike was a great musician and jazz teacher and friend. One of his sons is Christian Garrick, jazz violinist, who happened to play the violin solo on the theme tune for the TV series "Poldark" which was big in the UK. I have a photo of Mike with Jaco Pastorius and little Chris as a child, taken in Mike's garden.
OK, I'm rambling.
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^ Small world. I still have my MT44 I bought back in the mid-80's that I should get working again to transfers some 35+ year old tapes. Needs a little adhesive sticker on the cassette to put the deck in 4-track mode instead of 2-ch stereo mode.
My MT44 machine seems to have a bit of something like insulation tape inside the cassette compartment between the spindles. I suspect that under that is one of the magic stickers permanently in place, to avoid the need to stick one on each cassette. And presumably having it in four track mode all the time just means not record-enabling the unrequired tracks when only stereo mode is needed. But I think I probably only used it for four track stuff, having a plethora of normal cassette decks for two track recordings - the best of which is on the same rack as the MT44 and the rest are in the garage (in plastic crates).
Don't mean to take this too OT, although the MT44 certainly qualifies as a zero-bit analog tape deck!
Yes pretty sure that insulation tape is holding one of those magic stickers in place. They used to come with a bunch of them on a sheet, rectangular silver stickers with a little magnetic strip on them that were intended to be stuck over the tape window on the back side of the cassette. To avoid running out of them I taped one between the spindles similar to yours. I also never used that deck in 2-track mode. I think I still have some if you ever need a few, but I'd just leave the one you have taped on there in place if its doing the job.
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Thanks Gutbucket. We seem to have followed similar MT44 paths! I think I do have one or more sheets of stickers if the permanently installed one ever failed - but where are they? I have recently moved house... gulp...
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^ Same!
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^^ interesting trick, I would have over-engineered it with shim stock in brass or delrin!
OK, going for zero-bit overkill here:
(https://d3gqasl9vmjfd8.cloudfront.net/acbc6a20-af13-417b-8875-f858c9335f40.png)
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Excellent!
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I recorded documentary audio and music in Europe with a Nakamichi 550 for a summer in the 1970s, and the 500 is the two-head, AC-powered unit from the same generation. But ISTR that it had an additional feature: a switchable anti-distortion circuit that could be used in playback to reduce IM distortion at high recording levels. Am I remembering correctly, and if so, have you tried that circuit? I never managed to find out how it actually worked, and it wasn't carried over to any other, later models that I know of.
The 550 was a nice unit with excellent (though unfortunately unbalanced) mike preamps, but it was very difficult to set up for any particular type of tape, and mine had a problem with stray, low-level, high-frequency tones getting into the recording. Eventually a technician was able to mitigate that to where the deck was usable.
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very difficult to set up for any particular type of tape
If you mean the wonky way they have the Dolby NR level calibration trim pots for each type of tape to match the test tone then yes, it's a bit of a process. It's not incredibly complicated but it took an additional read of the manual to realize that you put in a tape, select the type, record the test tone, play it back while checking the meters, then adjust the LR pots for the test tone playback to hopefully hit 0, rinse and repeat.
I'm not catching on to the switchable circuit you mentioned - there's no switches that I can see either on the unit or in the manual that would be what you describe. Maybe the 550 had such a thing and the 500 doesn't although they seem to be the same except for powering and the arrangement of the controls to aid in portability of the 550.
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Sorry, my mistake -- that circuit was in the Nakamichi 600, not the 500.
--When setting up a deck for a specific type of tape, the Dolby level match is the final step after bias and equalization. Setting bias is a particularly painstaking process on any two-head tape deck; EQ and Dolby level, somewhat less so, but 15-20 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to set aside for the whole procedure. The same process takes only about two to three minutes with a three-head deck since you can vary the setting and observe the results in more or less real time, without continually recording, rewinding and checking the output. Also, the optimal gap width for a record head vs. a playback head are quite different from each other. I'm still fond of analog tape (I've been transferring some of my own, decades-old recordings in the past few years) but two-head decks are always a major compromise.
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They’re here
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Memories!
We used to raid the local department stores when the Cello-packed 6 (or Bonus Tape 7) packs went on sale.
I remember the weird looks carrying 72 cassettes to the register.
"Mom likes polkas!" I used to tell 'em.
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I thought I was going to have to abandon my plan when the FOH for BHTM said no way on AC power but my friend the house guy was like "I'll put out a quad box for the house light board and he'll just have to deal" Nothing else was said and I set up two rigs on one stand - KM140>Mixpre6 and Nak CM300/CP1 > Nak 500. Ran the A10 off the output of the tape deck and I'm glad I did. The Blues Traveler set ran over 1.5 hours so the encore "Hot For Teacher" and the last few minutes of the last song only got written to the A10. When the tape ran out I put it on record pause to feed the A10.
Stayed with cardioid stereo mics instead of 3, used Dolby and the limiter because it was super loud. Packed in the Nak inside a 60s Samsonite powder blue lady's carry on. Right before BT's set their FOH guy looks over into the suitcase and says "That's awesome". All the crew guys were kinda cracking up but also really nice about letting me share their space.
It sounds killer in the headphones from the little bit that I played back after I got home.
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Right on!
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I thought I was going to have to abandon my plan when the FOH for BHTM said no way on AC power but my friend the house guy was like "I'll put out a quad box for the house light board and he'll just have to deal" Nothing else was said and I set up two rigs on one stand - KM140>Mixpre6 and Nak CM300/CP1 > Nak 500. Ran the A10 off the output of the tape deck and I'm glad I did. The Blues Traveler set ran over 1.5 hours so the encore "Hot For Teacher" and the last few minutes of the last song only got written to the A10. When the tape ran out I put it on record pause to feed the A10.
Stayed with cardioid stereo mics instead of 3, used Dolby and the limiter because it was super loud. Packed in the Nak inside a 60s Samsonite powder blue lady's carry on. Right before BT's set their FOH guy looks over into the suitcase and says "That's awesome". All the crew guys were kinda cracking up but also really nice about letting me share their space.
It sounds killer in the headphones from the little bit that I played back after I got home.
Awesome! SO COOL!
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https://archive.org/details/bt2024-08-06.CM300.Nak500 (https://archive.org/details/bt2024-08-06.CM300.Nak500)
Big Head Todd up next...
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^ Awesome, thanks for sharing your efforts, sounds great!! I'm hearing some Salt Peanuts on that bass solo.
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^ Awesome, thanks for sharing your efforts, sounds great!! I'm hearing some Salt Peanuts on that bass solo.
Good ear! I went over to an unpopulated area to burn one during that part of the show and my GF sent me a text "He's playing Salt Peanuts!". She has a music degree but isn't really into jazz all that much. But she is really sharp.
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Digging the sound, goodcooker. It's really interesting to listen to the "Hot For Teacher" encore as it was only written to digital. Might be biased but after a quick listen on studio monitors, I prefer the analog recording.
I know you're busy with the restaurant, but hoping you'll transfer the Neumann > MixPre digital source at some point (no rush). Interested to hear your thoughts on both sources, particularly since you were at the show and standing next to/close to the mics.
Little things, like Todd's guitar sound (when he guests on Carolina Blues) sound really cool to me on analog. Idk why.
Tad Kinchla, their (sadly) 2nd bass player, has always been a badass IMO.
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Digging the sound, goodcooker. It's really interesting to listen to the "Hot For Teacher" encore as it was only written to digital. Might be biased but after a quick listen on studio monitors, I prefer the analog recording.
I know you're busy with the restaurant, but hoping you'll transfer the Neumann > MixPre digital source at some point (no rush). Interested to hear your thoughts on both sources, particularly since you were at the show and standing next to/close to the mics.
Little things, like Todd's guitar sound (when he guests on Carolina Blues) sound really cool to me on analog. Idk why.
Tad Kinchla, their (sadly) 2nd bass player, has always been a badass IMO.
I prefer the tape source sound as well. I need to track out the KM140 source and I'll upload it to give a comparison. The waveforms were very different but I ran it like I usually do - with lots of headroom to boost gain in post. It sounds kind of anemic compared to the Naks but I was running the tape deck up against the limiter all night.
The Nak500 I ran with the limiter on and the preamps slightly hotter than was really necessary (and it felt very counter intuitive). I tested the limiter somewhat at home and it sounded very transparent so I had hopes that I could push the levels past zero to get that "saturation" that people emulate with plug ins nowadays and it panned out. The VU meters were in the red quite often but I didn't really notice any clipping that sounded bad but during the BT set you can hear things get a little fuzzy around the edges. To me just enough pleasant sounding distortion = analog warmth. This was a loud ass rock band not a string quartet. Having things a little fuzzed out is a feature not a shortcoming. I'm not always after a pristine, clear recording and this is a great example of that.
Here's the Big Head Todd and the Monsters set -
https://archive.org/details/bhtm2024-08-06.nak500 (https://archive.org/details/bhtm2024-08-06.nak500)
The levels for them were a little more conservative. I set levels based on their set and left them there all night but prob should have reduced a touch for BT - they really cranked it up.
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Haven't had a chance to listen yet but plan to this weekend. Just want to make sure I understand correctly before I do.
I set up two rigs on one stand - KM140>Mixpre6 and Nak CM300/CP1 > Nak 500. Ran the A10 off the output of the tape deck and I'm glad I did. The Blues Traveler set ran over 1.5 hours so the encore "Hot For Teacher" and the last few minutes of the last song only got written to the A10. When the tape ran out I put it on record pause to feed the A10.
Okay so just the "HFT" encore portion of this recording > (https://archive.org/details/bhtm2024-08-06.nak500) is from the A10, spliced in to complete the Nak500 tape source, and it transitions just prior to the encore. Good so far?
What I'm wondering about is the signal path through the Nak500 to it's line-outs feeding the A10. Are Nak's limiters in that signal path? They might only be effecting the signal to tape, in the same way as the Dolby circuit, and not the line-out. That would be a pretty significant influence on the sonic differences.
Getting further into the sonic differences, it would be interesting to transfer the A10 recording back to the Nak500 (with the Nak set the exactly same as it was for the original recording, and the signal level out of the A10 or out of the computer adjusted to hit approximately the same meter levels as the original recording into the Nak), to see how different that is from the straight-to-Nak500 recording. I'd bet very similar, maybe indistinguishable.
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^ If close enough, a taper that really digs the cassette tape sound but doesn't want to deal with the hassles at the gig could just record digitally then transfer to cassette as a post-production operation. Won't get the nostalgia rush or a FOH guy looking over with a "That's awesome" though. And would need to do both a real time record and real time transfer back to digital each time afterward.
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Hmmm, that gets me thinking about a far wackier idea that would totally eliminate flips, end of tape, and all real-time transfers. How much of "the sound" is actually imparted by the actual tape medium itself? If most of "the sound" is imparted by the tape deck rather than the tape - the preamps, limiters, analog circuitry and last but not least the response, hysteresis, and other aspects of the magnetic tape head - what about using one of those old cassette adapters but in reverse? Pop one into the Nak500 set to record and plug the cassette adapter output into the A10. You'd then get everything the analog tape deck imparts except the actual tape itself.. but also the influence of the cassette adapter too, which might be the deal killer. The ones I had back in the day were not the ultimate in high fidelity. But maybe ok if the tape recorder was properly setup with the cassette adapter in place instead of a tape? If it works, the tapeless deck then becomes a preamp/tape-emulation color box just ahead of the digital recorder.
(https://www.lakemichigancomputers.com/cdn/shop/products/57_45fc7f03-0df9-482c-8554-ba9634159b05.jpg?v=1704309177&width=400)
Wikipedia link for those too young to remember- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_tape_adapter
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Ok back to a minor, yet perhaps related observation about the recording using the current setup-
When tape ran out during to the encore and the Nak deck stopped, did that cut signal to the A10 until you were able to switch the Nak back to rec/pause again? If it did, I presume you needed to patch it with the KM140>Mp6 source. But if it didn't, it would seem unnecessary to have to switch the Nak back into rec/pause after the tape stopped in order to retain signal out to the A10. I mention this because if you don't need to do that it will make for one less thing to be concerned with when recording with the Nak500 and a backup digital recorder.
That's actually what got me thinking about where the limiters are in the signal paths.
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Ok back to a minor, yet perhaps related observation about the recording using the current setup-
When tape ran out during to the encore and the Nak deck stopped, did that cut signal to the A10 until you were able to switch the Nak back to rec/pause again?
That's actually what got me thinking about where the limiters are in the signal paths.
Correct. No signal on the outputs (phones or line outs) or activity on the meters unless recording (or on rec pause) or playing back. The tape ran out right after the end of the last song. I had one moment where after the tape ran out I was trying to decide if I could use the space on the tape 1 side 1 that was unused at the time of first set swap then realized I was overthinking and just let the A10 run for the encore.
Even though I ran the A10 with conservative levels the resulting waveform looked a little wonky. Overly limited and without dynamic range. The same technique of pushing levels against the limiter that made a good tape didn't make for a good waveform at the line output.
I'm fairly happy with the level setting and results. I could have run a little more conservative on levels for the BT set. I think it got a little crunchy in comparison to the BHTM set. I was running 2.5 out of 10.
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Here's the KM140 source - same stand, very close in configuration ~DIN with a little bit less angle
https://archive.org/details/bt2024-08-06.KM140 (https://archive.org/details/bt2024-08-06.KM140)
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Finally had a chance to do a decent amount of listening and a little A-Bing.
The Neumann > MixPre digital recording certainly has it's merits. There's more detail, if you listen closely you can hear subtle things like the sound bouncing in the arena (hearing the room, or outdoor venue in this case), the crowd etc. Seems more dynamic. Lots of sonic info coming through my studio monitors.
My favorite recording of the evening is Big Head Todd Nakamichi CM300/CP1 > Nakamichi 500. It's cliche to say, but it's smooth and warm and easy to listen to. There's a soft little punch to it, across the whole spectrum. MIGHT be a bit biased since I love Big Head Todd, but focusing on the sound itself, it's more dynamic than the Blues Traveler analog source (gotta be the limiter that goodcooker talks about). Not as detailed as the digital source, but certainly not dull by any means.
When you go back and forth between the analog and digital sources it's pretty interesting. Yes, there seems to be slightly less fidelity with the analog recordings, but they don't feel lo-fi at all. It reinforces what so many of you have discovered; they're flavors and it's ultimately a matter of preference.
Gutbucket suggests the possibility of imparting this "flavor" by simply transferring our digital sources to cassette, as well as even a cassette adapter! We must devise a comp for this. :)
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You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.
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You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.
These plug ins are VERY popular nowadays. There's dozens of not hundreds of them on the market. I have dabbled a little with adding them to my master buss when doing post on shows but found that I prefer the Waves L3 Ultramaximizer plug in with the Extreme Analog preset. It's more than just a compressor. It utilizes some kind of frequency dependent expansion as well so acts somewhat like Dolby in that it's like a "compander".
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I very much enjoyed listening to the Blues Traveler set recordings last Sunday, and have been meaning to get back here to post some thoughts since. Was listening with my preferred HD650 headphones, but on someone else's computer so my comparisons were made by way of streaming though the archive WinAmp player to gain EQ capability. Haven't listed to the Big Head Todd set yet.
I mostly focused on comparing the Nak and KM140 sources, both streaming simultaneously in separate browser windows. Note for anyone comparing these, those two sources are inverted Left/Right. Not sure which reflects the actual "sidedness" as experienced at the concert, and it doesn't really matter, but my initial "wha?" upon shifting from one to the other was quickly shifted to an "oh, okay" by flipping the headphones around on my head to keep the left side left each time I switched between sources. Funny that every once in a while I'd switch between the two and forget to flip the 'phones, and the "wha?" disorientation would immediately return prior to realizing a second later what had happened.
With that established, I EQ'd each to best effect - a good portion of which is baseline correction for the transfer function of HD650's > my ears. In other words, I start with a similar baseline curve for most any recording. Beyond that, it was interesting get a feel for what further adjustments I felt benefited each and how they differed.. then to play around with how close I could get the two to each other, at least in terms of perceived frequency response. Struggling to recall detailed specifics, but other than what might be expected, I remember EQing in a somewhat different midrange presence bump. Ended up with both very enjoyable and involving. Good general metric of success when it gets me to relax into it and want to keep listening. Nice job!
Interesting that there was a significant difference in the Nak>A10 encore. I recall it taking more EQing to get that somewhat similar the the other two sources, but it not sounding as good. I don't use an A10 so am not intimately familiar with its "sound", but would expect it to be neutral with makes me wonder about the analog-out signal path through the Nak500.
Looking forward to doing some similar listening with the Big Head Todd set at some point.
Overall, my impression of the Blues Traveler set is similar to Chanher's comments on the Todd set. The Nak source is more compressed, "warm", "rounded" and "cassette-like" and had me recalling good cassette recordings from 30+ years ago. The KM140 source cleaner and more detailed, more top and a deeper extended bottom. In addition to the length differences due to the tape flip, the Nak source runs considerably faster. I found myself doing the "quick double pause jab" frequently to keep them in loose alignment.
Those particular sonic differences got me thinking about how both sources feature different positive aspects that are potentially complementary, and how the less dynamic Nak source might serve the same roll as a parallel compressed channel. That sent me down the a just-for-fun path of working a very rough mix of the two by playing both browser windows simultaneously. Sync'd using a quick double-jab to the pause button of the Nak source every, dunno ~10-15 seconds or so. Close enough that after each brief double-jab pause, the Nak source would be a few milliseconds ahead for a few seconds of play before slowly sliding into full sync (interesting to hear the slight delay perceptually morph to a flanger-like phase shift, then that phase shift disappear as the two sources slides into full alignment for a few seconds, and then slides back out of phase again until achieving just enough perceptual delay that another double-jab would repeat the cycle. By adjusting the relative level of each source I got a good feel for the positive combination of the two - bottom extension, clarity, dynamics, transients and a more 3d audience/ambience from the KM140s flushed out with a nice compressed fatness and flavor from the Nak tape source. Obviously this was a quite fast and loose thing, complicated by the fact L/R is swapped between the two sources (which was actually less of an issue than I imagined it might be), yet sufficient to get a good feel for how well the two fit together nicely in a quite complementary way.
Fun stuff. I'd not want to try to actually sync them though!
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Gutbucket suggests the possibility of imparting this "flavor" by simply transferring our digital sources to cassette, as well as even a cassette adapter! We must devise a comp for this. :)
You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.
Fun to think about and discuss all of this, along with creative ways to use classic gear to best effect. If the focus of this thread wasn't all about using the analog gear or tape itself but rather about how best to practically achieve that kind of sound, I'd probably keep everything digital and use a plugin like if_then_else and goodcooker mention. If doing that, it would be interesting to compare treating the stereo file directly with that kind of effect, verses applying it in parallel in a way analogous to the way I was mixing the tape and digital sources. Might work really well to compress, EQ and saturate the parallel path while leaving the primary path clean with uncompressed dynamics and full transients. Essentially the application of parallel compression with additional tape saturation effect added. If that achieves the desired result, it can be applied relatively easily to any single-source digital recording that might benefit from it. But the real focus of this thread is analog tape recording, not just for the sound of it but for the fun of running classic gear.
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@ gutbucket - the Nak is definitely running fast, not enough to really notice unless you are comparing to something else but definitely in need of getting fixed when my local vintage electronics guy can fit me in - he's been working on retainer for an audiophile who is paying him salary to get every piece of his massive collection tuned up - he's not taking in any outside projects for over half a year now. I picked up on that when I loaded the two sources in to a Wavelab montage to create a comparison track or two - 30 seconds of one file followed by 30 seconds of the next and so on - and the Nak source would be out of sync by mid song. That's when I realized I must have had the cables on the Mixpre backwards which flipped L/R on the 140s. I was in a hurry to get set up and having to be very side eye cognizant of the crews from the house and both bands (who each had their own full size touring rig in addition to the house light rig) since I was located inside FOH.
Agree with the assessments so far. The cassette source is far from perfect but has it's charm on it's own merits. I think this says a lot about how good Nakamichi gear was/is. The gear used for this was not marketed to professionals at the time. Cassette in general wasn't really considered professional and was marketed for convenience
The Neumann mics > Sound Devices Mixpre clearly has an edge when it comes to clarity and detail which comes as no surprise. A big chunk of the difference has to do with the mics as they are considerably different. The 1975 retail on a CM300 was $99. The KM140 was over $1000. The rest has to do with the 40 year gap in the recorders. The cassette deck was pretty advanced for it's day but that day was 50 years ago.
@ chanher "My favorite recording of the evening is Big Head Todd Nakamichi CM300/CP1 > Nakamichi 500. It's cliche to say, but it's smooth and warm and easy to listen to" - I agree. I set levels for BHTM and left them there for BT who were def louder and continued to push the levels higher as the show progressed. I hit the sweet spot during the first set.
This was a fun project. I will not be hauling the tape deck to shows often although the opportunity to do some onstage mics/soundboard feed mixes may present itself at something low key like a house show. There's a couple of people around town who put on backyard events.
Side note - when my friend who is the "guy Friday" at the venue (stage manager, FOH, crew - he and one helper fly the outdoor line arrays then put them away for every show) came out to meet me and take my gear in before the show he picked up the suitcase and said "Sweet. Samsonite" then headed back in. My GF took a bunch of pics and for real from across the parking lot it looked like a shady 70s drug deal going down.
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Ha! Sounds like you really enjoyed it. Fun for all of us following along too. +T and thanks for the cool thread.
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Hey Gutbucket - today when ploughing through loads of Stuff to be thrown away, I came across... yup, the M44 silver stickers! They will now be carefully preserved, I guess by storing them on top of the M44. Seems logical.
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:coolguy: