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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: ace5gt on July 30, 2024, 09:02:57 PM
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I went to a show recently, and I approached the sound guy and asked him if I provided a USB stick, if he'd be able to give me a copy of the SBD recording? He agreed. At the end of the night, I drove home feeling all excited, but was met with disappointment when I plugged in the USB stick and saw a corrupted wav file with 0 kb. I'm not sure if I just got unlucky, or if this is not the proper way to capture a SBD recording?
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I prefer an XLR out of board, then I can listen to it in real time and make sure I've got a usable recording going on. Bob
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I went to a show recently, and I approached the sound guy and asked him if I provided a USB stick, if he'd be able to give me a copy of the SBD recording? He agreed. At the end of the night, I drove home feeling all excited, but was met with disappointment when I plugged in the USB stick and saw a corrupted wav file with 0 kb. I'm not sure if I just got unlucky, or if this is not the proper way to capture a SBD recording?
There's a lot to unpack about why this happened -
What make and model of soundboard was it?
Was it a stereo mix file? independent track files?
Was the USB drive formatted correctly?
Did the drive run out of space while writing? A 16 gig would only make it a half hour if it was writing 32 wav files at 24/48
Did the file get properly closed before removing the USB drive?
All may not be lost - several file recovery programs can work and it may be as simple as writing a new header to the wav.
I don't do the USB stick sbd patch - partly because more than half the time I've asked it's already in use and I usually want to mix a sbd feed with mics and the clocks are off so I just patch audio out of the board into my recorder.
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I went to a show recently, and I approached the sound guy and asked him if I provided a USB stick, if he'd be able to give me a copy of the SBD recording? He agreed. At the end of the night, I drove home feeling all excited, but was met with disappointment when I plugged in the USB stick and saw a corrupted wav file with 0 kb. I'm not sure if I just got unlucky, or if this is not the proper way to capture a SBD recording?
There's a lot to unpack about why this happened -
What make and model of soundboard was it?
Was it a stereo mix file? independent track files?
Was the USB drive formatted correctly?
Did the drive run out of space while writing? A 16 gig would only make it a half hour if it was writing 32 wav files at 24/48
Did the file get properly closed before removing the USB drive?
All may not be lost - several file recovery programs can work and it may be as simple as writing a new header to the wav.
I don't do the USB stick sbd patch - partly because more than half the time I've asked it's already in use and I usually want to mix a sbd feed with mics and the clocks are off so I just patch audio out of the board into my recorder.
I don't have the answer to most of the questions, other than it was a 32 GB stick formatted as NTFS. When I plug it in, it shows that 2 GB of space have been consumed, but when I look at the actual file, it's 0 kb. And if I copy and paste it to my main drive, it again copies over at 0 kb, immediately.
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I had to format my 16GB USB drive to 'FAT32' for a soundboard recording. The board wouldn't recognize the drive formatted as 'NTFS'.
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I had to format my 16GB USB drive to 'FAT32' for a soundboard recording. The board wouldn't recognize the drive formatted as 'NTFS'.
You are correct, sir.. :coolguy:
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I don't have the answer to most of the questions, other than it was a 32 GB stick formatted as NTFS. When I plug it in, it shows that 2 GB of space have been consumed, but when I look at the actual file, it's 0 kb. And if I copy and paste it to my main drive, it again copies over at 0 kb, immediately.
A 0 byte file that consumes 2 GB of space screams corrupted headers to me. What's the program that zaps those, can someone here remind me? Because if so, it may be as simple as the soundperson having pulled the stick before it had time to finish saving, and you might be able to recover what's on it.
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[quote author=goodcooker link=topic=205552.msg2415391#msg2415391 date=1722402174
Did the drive run out of space while writing? A 16 gig would only make it a half hour if it was writing 32 wav files at 24/48
[/quote]
That's not correct. A 24/48 WAV file uses approximately 1 GB per hour of recording.
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[quote author=goodcooker link=topic=205552.msg2415391#msg2415391 date=1722402174
Did the drive run out of space while writing? A 16 gig would only make it a half hour if it was writing 32 wav files at 24/48
That's not correct. A 24/48 WAV file uses approximately 1 GB per hour of recording.
[/quote]
reading comprehension: Thirty-two wav files at 24/48 = 32 GB's of storage goodcooker is thinking 32 channels going into the USB drive ( I think?) 8)
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I used to use ZAR recovery software under Windows, but now it's been replaced with a new thing.
I don't pay, I only use the free version and it's able to recover WAV files from X32 boards which have had the drive removed before the access light stops flashing.
https://www.z-a-recovery.com/download.aspx (https://www.z-a-recovery.com/download.aspx)
New one, I can't vouch for specifically, but it's the same author as the ZAR
https://www.klennet.com/klennet-recovery/ (https://www.klennet.com/klennet-recovery/)
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That's not correct. A 24/48 WAV file uses approximately 1 GB per hour of recording.
It is correct. 32 wave files at 24/48 would fill up a 16 gig drive in a half hour. 32 hour long files would be 32 gigs.
I said 32 because its the default of many newer soundboards we are seeing if doing multitracks saved to disc.
To stay on topic - a 0 byte header can be fixed in several ways. For me the easiest and cheapest is to simply drag and drop the file into CD Wave Editor. If it sees a corrupt header it will ask you if you want to write a new header and proceed. Click yes and save the file as a new name.
Doesn't work every time but when it does it only takes 60 seconds and works perfect.
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[quote author=goodcooker link=topic=205552.msg2415391#msg2415391 date=1722402174
Did the drive run out of space while writing? A 16 gig would only make it a half hour if it was writing 32 wav files at 24/48
That's not correct. A 24/48 WAV file uses approximately 1 GB per hour of recording.
reading comprehension: Thirty-two wav files at 24/48 = 32 GB's of storage goodcooker is thinking 32 channels going into the USB drive ( I think?) 8)
[/quote]
AHH I was thinking he meant FAT 32 files. Anyhow, I doubt you would get 32 channels out.
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That's not correct. A 24/48 WAV file uses approximately 1 GB per hour of recording.
It is correct. 32 wave files at 24/48 would fill up a 16 gig drive in a half hour. 32 hour long files would be 32 gigs.
I said 32 because its the default of many newer soundboards we are seeing if doing multitracks saved to disc.
To stay on topic - a 0 byte header can be fixed in several ways. For me the easiest and cheapest is to simply drag and drop the file into CD Wave Editor. If it sees a corrupt header it will ask you if you want to write a new header and proceed. Click yes and save the file as a new name.
Doesn't work every time but when it does it only takes 60 seconds and works perfect.
YES, this has worked for me twice.
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I tried opening it in Adobe Audition and get this error:
"Error: AmioLSF plug-in could not open the file. Code: 20. File contains data in an unknown format. If you would like to try using the Dynamic Link Media Server, please go to Preferences > Media & Disk Cache and enable the option "Enable DLMS Format Support" and try to open the file again."
I then tried opening it in CD Wave and get this:
"Cannot open RIFF chunk, file is not a valid WAVE file"
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Try VLC, it's been known to work sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaMXQ4qwEl8
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but I taped 4 shows yesterday, and was lucky enough to get a board feed for all 4. 3 were in one location, the 4th was in another.
In all 4 gigs, the feed was XLR straight from the board into an H4N, and my gain for all of them was set well below clipping. But during the shows I noticed that instead of the bars moving with the sound, like the channel my mics were on, they were maxed out at the level I had set below clipping. I mentioned it to the first sound guy, but I haven't gotten many board feeds in the past, and I was glad enough to have the feed, I didn't want to question what he was doing, especially while he's trying to mix the show. But then the same thing happened at the second location.
Sure enough, I transfer the files today, and the board feeds are all clipped out and unlistenable. Is this a situation where there was too much gain on their end on the board output? Or is it something I have set wrong on my H4N?
I had just had my H4N replaced by Zoom bc of the rubberized coating degrading, and I'm not sure if I put all my settings back the way they were before, but I think I had everything right on my end.
Just trying to figure this out for future situations like this.
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but I taped 4 shows yesterday, and was lucky enough to get a board feed for all 4. 3 were in one location, the 4th was in another.
In all 4 gigs, the feed was XLR straight from the board into an H4N, and my gain for all of them was set well below clipping. But during the shows I noticed that instead of the bars moving with the sound, like the channel my mics were on, they were maxed out at the level I had set below clipping. I mentioned it to the first sound guy, but I haven't gotten many board feeds in the past, and I was glad enough to have the feed, I didn't want to question what he was doing, especially while he's trying to mix the show. But then the same thing happened at the second location.
Sure enough, I transfer the files today, and the board feeds are all clipped out and unlistenable. Is this a situation where there was too much gain on their end on the board output? Or is it something I have set wrong on my H4N?
I had just had my H4N replaced by Zoom bc of the rubberized coating degrading, and I'm not sure if I put all my settings back the way they were before, but I think I had everything right on my end.
Just trying to figure this out for future situations like this.
I don't have an h4n, but it sounds like it only has a mic in instead of a line-in, and the signal is too hot for your recorder. You can buy an attenuator for each XLR https://jennifervanelk.com/line-level-audio-clipping-with-the-zoom-h4-h4n-buy-an-attenuator/#:~:text=The%20Zoom%20H4%20and%20H4N,the%20worse%20it'll%20become.
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but I taped 4 shows yesterday, and was lucky enough to get a board feed for all 4. 3 were in one location, the 4th was in another.
In all 4 gigs, the feed was XLR straight from the board into an H4N, and my gain for all of them was set well below clipping. But during the shows I noticed that instead of the bars moving with the sound, like the channel my mics were on, they were maxed out at the level I had set below clipping. I mentioned it to the first sound guy, but I haven't gotten many board feeds in the past, and I was glad enough to have the feed, I didn't want to question what he was doing, especially while he's trying to mix the show. But then the same thing happened at the second location.
Sure enough, I transfer the files today, and the board feeds are all clipped out and unlistenable. Is this a situation where there was too much gain on their end on the board output? Or is it something I have set wrong on my H4N?
I had just had my H4N replaced by Zoom bc of the rubberized coating degrading, and I'm not sure if I put all my settings back the way they were before, but I think I had everything right on my end.
Just trying to figure this out for future situations like this.
I don't have an h4n, but it sounds like it only has a mic in instead of a line-in, and the signal is too hot for your recorder. You can buy an attenuator for each XLR https://jennifervanelk.com/line-level-audio-clipping-with-the-zoom-h4-h4n-buy-an-attenuator/#:~:text=The%20Zoom%20H4%20and%20H4N,the%20worse%20it'll%20become.
That is probably exactly what happened. Thanks! I had no idea that was an issue with a line level feed. Appreciate the tip. :cheers:
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Correct me if I’m wrong since I haven’t had access to soundboards, nor have I used an h4n, but wouldn’t you need to use the 1/4” jacks for line inputs? I believe the XLR inputs are mic input only. I’d say that, next time, try using those inputs instead.
For my DR-40 this is how I’ve ripped cassette tapes using a pair of RCA to 1/4” cables from the tape deck, and it worked perfectly.
edit: see the attached screenshot of the spec sheet
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That's probably correct. I didn't realize those inputs were for mics only and that there was a difference between a microphone input and a line level feed. I'm still pretty new to taping, and it's still a lot of trial and error and learning from mistakes like this for me.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
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Did the file get properly closed before removing the USB drive?.
I know it’s not the current discussion, but this almost definitely the issue. Done it to myself more times than I care to admit
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but I taped 4 shows yesterday, and was lucky enough to get a board feed for all 4. 3 were in one location, the 4th was in another.
In all 4 gigs, the feed was XLR straight from the board into an H4N, and my gain for all of them was set well below clipping. But during the shows I noticed that instead of the bars moving with the sound, like the channel my mics were on, they were maxed out at the level I had set below clipping. I mentioned it to the first sound guy, but I haven't gotten many board feeds in the past, and I was glad enough to have the feed, I didn't want to question what he was doing, especially while he's trying to mix the show. But then the same thing happened at the second location.
Sure enough, I transfer the files today, and the board feeds are all clipped out and unlistenable. Is this a situation where there was too much gain on their end on the board output? Or is it something I have set wrong on my H4N?
I had just had my H4N replaced by Zoom bc of the rubberized coating degrading, and I'm not sure if I put all my settings back the way they were before, but I think I had everything right on my end.
Just trying to figure this out for future situations like this.
I don't have an h4n, but it sounds like it only has a mic in instead of a line-in, and the signal is too hot for your recorder. You can buy an attenuator for each XLR https://jennifervanelk.com/line-level-audio-clipping-with-the-zoom-h4-h4n-buy-an-attenuator/#:~:text=The%20Zoom%20H4%20and%20H4N,the%20worse%20it'll%20become.
That is probably exactly what happened. Thanks! I had no idea that was an issue with a line level feed. Appreciate the tip. :cheers:
On the older F series, like my F4 and F8, to switch to line level you need to use the 1/4" inputs. They moved it to the menu with the F8n, so you could use either XLR or 1/4" inputs for line level. I assume the H series have the same combo inputs.
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you should always have headphones to monitor your recorder when you get a sbd feed. some feeds are hot some are low. ive hooked into press mults and that are a mixed bag. some are line, some are mic. if you get an independent feed off the sbd ahead of time, i usually ask the soundman to put the level at 50% figuring it wont be too hot or too low and i wont have to bother him. keep in mind that pre show the recorded music will be low and as the show progresses it might get louder.
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if you get an independent feed off the sbd ahead of time, i usually ask the soundman to put the level at 50%
Worth noting that's not always possible. I'd say it's relatively common to send the main LR mix to an aux out for a taper, and often AUX don't have actual level controls
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An attenuator cable is a great addition to any gear bag.
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Or a homemade variable attenuator box... I made two despite my dismal soldering skills c20 years ago and they're still in one of my gear boxes.
Not that I've had to use them for a long while - between more robust inputs on modern recorders and the flexibility of digital mixers, I don't have much need of them any more.
I remember one soundman casting a dubious look at my very homemade looking attenuator and asking "so can than thing record?"
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For line out from board to H4N, does it make a difference if 1/4" cable is shielded or unshielded? Like instrument cable vs speaker cable.
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For line out from board to H4N, does it make a difference if 1/4" cable is shielded or unshielded? Like instrument cable vs speaker cable.
Absolutely. An unshielded speaker-type cable should never be used for any mic or line level signals, only for their intended power amp to speaker purpose.
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For line out from board to H4N, does it make a difference if 1/4" cable is shielded or unshielded? Like instrument cable vs speaker cable.
Absolutely. An unshielded speaker-type cable should never be used for any mic or line level signals, only for their intended power amp to speaker purpose.
That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure before I purchased! Merci bien!
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it's still a lot of trial and error and learning from mistakes like this for me.
This never goes away no matter how long you do this. It's one of the best parts so embrace it now.
I was lucky to have a few very experienced people be very generous with their time and knowledge when I was getting started. A few years later they ask me questions as often as I ask them.
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To address the OP, I have found that for Behringer X32 boards, the USB stick has to stay inserted after recording for a few seconds — an indicator light will blink until the file is finished writing to the USB stick. If it is removed before the blinking is finished, you will get a corrupted file that I do not believe can be recovered
Not sure if this is the answer for why it happened to you. I did want to warn folks about that in advance so they will know
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To address the OP, I have found that for Behringer X32 boards, the USB stick has to stay inserted after recording for a few seconds — an indicator light will blink until the file is finished writing to the USB stick. If it is removed before the blinking is finished, you will get a corrupted file that I do not believe can be recovered
Not sure if this is the answer for why it happened to you. I did want to warn folks about that in advance so they will know
It can usually be recovered, but I do NOT recommend it.
Make sure to remind anyone who might touch it to be sure the blinking has ceased before removing the drive.
Here are two stories of successful recovery via windows
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/how-to-salvage-recording-from-x32-usb-recorder.12829/ (https://soundforums.net/community/threads/how-to-salvage-recording-from-x32-usb-recorder.12829/)
https://smartergeek.com/2014/12/lost-wav-on-behringer-0-bytes/ (https://smartergeek.com/2014/12/lost-wav-on-behringer-0-bytes/)
I have used the old app ZAR with success.
It's such a pain in the butt, I really prefer to let the light stop flashing!!!
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That's probably correct. I didn't realize those inputs were for mics only and that there was a difference between a microphone input and a line level feed. I'm still pretty new to taping, and it's still a lot of trial and error and learning from mistakes like this for me.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, or if your recorder even has phantom power - but since you are new to taping and getting board feeds, I wanted to pass on one small piece of advice - make sure you don't send phantom power to a board. It could cause damage.
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Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask this, but I taped 4 shows yesterday, and was lucky enough to get a board feed for all 4. 3 were in one location, the 4th was in another.
In all 4 gigs, the feed was XLR straight from the board into an H4N, and my gain for all of them was set well below clipping. But during the shows I noticed that instead of the bars moving with the sound, like the channel my mics were on, they were maxed out at the level I had set below clipping. I mentioned it to the first sound guy, but I haven't gotten many board feeds in the past, and I was glad enough to have the feed, I didn't want to question what he was doing, especially while he's trying to mix the show. But then the same thing happened at the second location.
Sure enough, I transfer the files today, and the board feeds are all clipped out and unlistenable. Is this a situation where there was too much gain on their end on the board output? Or is it something I have set wrong on my H4N?
I had just had my H4N replaced by Zoom bc of the rubberized coating degrading, and I'm not sure if I put all my settings back the way they were before, but I think I had everything right on my end.
Just trying to figure this out for future situations like this.
You need to ask the soundguy to lower the output signal from the board by 10-20 dB. The output signal is always too hot for any recorder.
Try to sort this during soundcheck as it's unlikely he will prioritize you once the show has started.
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That's probably correct. I didn't realize those inputs were for mics only and that there was a difference between a microphone input and a line level feed. I'm still pretty new to taping, and it's still a lot of trial and error and learning from mistakes like this for me.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone!
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, or if your recorder even has phantom power - but since you are new to taping and getting board feeds, I wanted to pass on one small piece of advice - make sure you don't send phantom power to a board. It could cause damage.
I was at least aware of this. Definitely did not want to fry the board.
Thanks to all who have responded to my post in this thread. I picked up a couple attenuators and was able to successfully deploy them during the 50th Festivals Acadiens et Creoles a few weeks back. Haven't had time to sit down and process any of them yet, but upon first listen everything sounds great. Appreciate the help!
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Thanks to all who have responded to my post in this thread. I picked up a couple attenuators and was able to successfully deploy them during the 50th Festivals Acadiens et Creoles a few weeks back. Haven't had time to sit down and process any of them yet, but upon first listen everything sounds great. Appreciate the help!
Oh wow, that looks amazing! I got to see Cedric Watson back in September, and he was one of my highlights of the year.
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To address the OP, I have found that for Behringer X32 boards, the USB stick has to stay inserted after recording for a few seconds — an indicator light will blink until the file is finished writing to the USB stick. If it is removed before the blinking is finished, you will get a corrupted file that I do not believe can be recovered
Not sure if this is the answer for why it happened to you. I did want to warn folks about that in advance so they will know
Not sure if the OP is still reading this, but anyway... It does feel like the stick was removed before the file was properly closed. Hence it still is reported as a 0-byte file, as the mixing desk never had the chance to properly close the file and update the file size. Most of the samples will have been written to the stick, though! It's just that the 'file system administration' still reports it is an empty file. In situations like this I would always make a disk image of the stick (or SD card) and then open the disk image as 'raw audio' in my DAW to salvage any samples present. Doing it this way will make sure a corrupt file system will not hinder the salvation process. Creating the disk image should be done before anything else is done with the stick (e.g. storing/removing/moving files, repair attempts, formatting, whatever.) Some suggested the stick had an incorrect file system (NTFS iso FAT32). However, as the mixing desk was able to create a file in the first place, I guess it wasn't hindered by the fact that it was an NTFS stick. I do believe FAT32 has better compatibility with various mixing desks.
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I bought a pair of balanced TRS cables which came in today which dramatically helped me patch a shitty bar board and I dovetailed them with my 15 footers to get far enough away to pull mics. It's not science, it's art (of the steeze).