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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: TheJez on January 31, 2025, 02:41:27 AM
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Tascam announced two new small & cheap recorders with built-in mics and mini-jack mic/line input. These two recorders seem 100% identical, apart from the internal mic configuration.
https://www.tascam.eu/en/dr-05xp (https://www.tascam.eu/en/dr-05xp) Omni's
https://www.tascam.eu/en/dr-07xp (https://www.tascam.eu/en/dr-07xp) Cardioids A/B or X/Y
Of course it's 32bfp-capable, but no mention of multi-ADC. Also no EIN-claim to be found on the website or manual.
When looking at the manual (chapter 5.5), there seems to be gain control in the analog domain when using 16/24 bit recording, but when using 32bfp the gain seems fixed and 'record level adjustments' are done in the digital domain.
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They could easily un-cripple that. While it's not my modality of choice, I wonder what their audience is? Reporters?
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Hmm, it seems they are very similar to the DR-05X and DR-07X, with added '32bfp', but without multi-ADC :banging head:. So this seems like marketing-driven release.
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It seems to be much like any such device these days. The actual quality of the mic capsules might be the key thing. Max SPL is 125dB which is either a consequence of capsule limitation, or lack of dual A/D converters limiting the dynamic range. This whole single converter thing seems to be becoming a new trend. And not one that is much discussed elsewhere so far.
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125dB max spl is the same as previous model
It would be very cool if they make 32bfp in firmware for the dr100mkiii, which HAS dual adcs …
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Hmm, it seems they are very similar to the DR-05X and DR-07X, with added '32bfp', but without multi-ADC :banging head:. So this seems like marketing-driven release.
...just like every other device that has 32bfp, multi ADC or not. :smash:
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Saw these drop and was wondering what everyone thought of them. I'm in the market for gear to tape metal shows so I thought the 32bfr feature sounded like a good feature. I'm a noob so be gentle haha.
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125dB max spl is the same as previous model
It would be very cool if they make 32bfp in firmware for the dr100mkiii, which HAS dual adcs …
That's an interesting thought but as it's a discontinued model, I suspect it wouldn't happen.
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Saw these drop and was wondering what everyone thought of them. I'm in the market for gear to tape metal shows so I thought the 32bfr feature sounded like a good feature. I'm a noob so be gentle haha.
Well, you can probably tell from the preceding posts that nobody so far is particularly excited about this device. It seems to be trying to cover a wide range of uses but it's not necessarily the best at any given one. The 32 bit float capability is unlikely to have an audible benefit from its apparently single converter, compared to 24 bit.
I guess that we'd need to know a fair bit more about your requirement to provide targeted advice - for instance, are you just wanting to record using built in mics, noticeable to those around you, or more discreetly with semi hidden mics? Or would your mic choice be dictated by sound quality rather then discreet appearance? And if you have a mic in mind what kind of connector does it have? And so on...
Right now if I was going to record a metal show using stuff I already have, I would choose the Zoom M2 MicTrak device if making the recording obvious was not a problem, or the Rode Wireless Micro pair clipped to a baseball cap and connected to my phone, for less obvious recording. Assuming wearing a baseball cap at the venue wouldn't look odd.
Both of these devices can handle 135dB incoming levels to their built in mics. The Zoom does 32 bit float but the Rode doesn't. The Zoom device doesn't have level setting, and as it has no input sockets, the only basis for the quoted 135dB handling would be that the mic capsules, the preamp, and the dual A/D converters could handle it.
The Rode has a choice of three sensitivities. The low sensitivity setting would presumably not overload the output to the phone when it encountered the 135dB metal band, otherwise quoting that figure wouldn't make sense. You would use an app in the phone to record and that would doubtless enable levels to be set. You have to keep your head still while recording otherwise the stereo image would keep shifting around.
At risk of displaying prejudice, I doubt whether the self noise of the device would be critical when recording this kind of music, as long as the self noise wasn't really, really bad.
Note that my suggestions are left field. Others might say to me "you must be joking".
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Curtis Judd has just reviewed this device on YouTube. He didn't mention the apparent lack of a dual a/d converter. I suspect that this is because people have not twigged that 32 bit float recording does not necessarily mean dual converters offering a wider stored dynamic range. I have posted a long comment pointing out that something iffy is going on here and I suggested that he should challenge people like Tascam and Zoom to come clean on what they are doing. (He would be much more likely to get an answer than me!). Let's see what may or may not emerge.
(Most of the comments complained about a lot of self noise from the device, which he used to record the review audio. Sadly, I simply didn't hear it - I think my ears have reached retirement age... But nobody mentioned the rather thin sound. These days self noise seems to be a bigger consumer concern than accurate capture of a reasonable frequency range. Hmm.)
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125dB max spl is the same as previous model
It would be very cool if they make 32bfp in firmware for the dr100mkiii, which HAS dual adcs …
That's an interesting thought but as it's a discontinued model, I suspect it wouldn't happen.
There's no need to update the firmware. One could use the SafetyTrackMerger software to combine the output of the two ADC's into a single 32bfp file. At post processing, not during recording that is...
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There’s definitely a need to update the firmware: to get the 32bit fp stuff in the recorder straight away
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There’s definitely a need to update the firmware: to get the 31bit fp stuff in the recorder straight away
I really doubt the dr100mkiii would have the processing power and memory capacity to do the combining in realtime. And indeed it is very unlikely they will make new firmware for a discontinued product. There is simply no financial incentive for them to do so. If I'd have this device, I would be quite happy with a software solution that would effectively turn this ~2016 device into a 32bfp recorder, even if it's done during post processing. I understand the desire for new firmware, but wouldn't directly call it a need as there is another way available to achieve the same result. Just my opinion...
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Tascam are answering some (not all so far) questions about this device on their YouTube adverts for it. I've asked them there about whether or not it has dual converters, or a single converter not extending the dynamic range. Will they answer? Time will tell...
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The more I think of this... I guess with this device it may be better to record in 16/24bit than 32bfp. When recording in 16 or 24bit, at least the user does have analog gain control, allowing to set it in such a way that there is 'acceptable' S/N ratio for the given circumstances (loud/quiet). When recording in 32bfp, the analog gain is fixed at such a low level that 125dB SPL will not overload the analog input and the single ADC. This automatically means there will be quite some noise when recording quieter sounds (e.g. dialog, ambience). With 32bfp, any amplification due to the 'record level' is done in the digital domain, hence not improving the S/N ratio in any way. In the Curtis Judd review he mentioned a recording where he shouted in the mics, resulting in samples > 0dB which he had to normalize to get rid of distortion. This totally makes sense as the distortion was caused in the digital 32bfp domain in the first place. So it says absolutely nothing about the device's dynamic range capabilities.
It's a weird paradox that the device's selling point (32bfp) is the device's Achilles heel at the same time. It will likely be ok-ish for (very) loud recordings, but under par for other recordings.
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It gets worse. Tascam have responded to my YouTube comment question about dual A/D converters as follows -
"32-bit float recording is only possible with dual ADC. So, the DR-XP recorders feature dual ADC."
Meanwhile Zoom have specifically stated that only inputs 1 & 2 of the H4e use dual converters. But the device only outputs 32 bit float.
One or other company is seriously confused about their own products. I have pointed out to Tascam that 'another manufacturer' claims 32 bit float output without using dual converters. Let's see how they respond, if they do.
I do wonder whether the H4e uses dual converters for the built in mics of that device, or a single converter, given that the built in mics are not (I would say) inputs 1 & 2 - but that's another subject.
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So I asked a similar question as Ozpeter, this time to Tascam USA customer service:
“ Does the new DR-07XP have dual ADC?”
And I received this answer:
“ Our engineering department has sent the following information...
DR-07XP/DR-05XP are SINGLE ADC.
Thank you for your interest in TASCAM products.”
Pretty much what everyone guessed. But kudos to Tascam for replying with the truth.
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But it was disappointing. I was looking forward to an inexpensive handheld all-in-one 32-bit float DUAL ADC pocket recorder.
Maybe a 32-bit float DUAL ADC Tascam DR-100MKIV is in the works.
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Maybe a 32-bit float DUAL ADC Tascam DR-100MKIV is in the works.
I think Tascam regards the two portacapture recorders successors of the DR-100 series.
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Dogmusic, indeed I got an identical response from them just now. But I don't admire them for telling the truth. They have marketed these devices without specifying the vital information as to whether the 32 bit float format used for output is any different from 24 bit, and this has confused not only potential purchasers but also their own marketing department, who like the majority of people involved in this field at the receiving end, assumed 32 bit float implies the use of dual (or more) converters to allow the storage of a wider dynamic range that 24 bit audio. Now a small number of us know better. I shall do what I can in the next few days to make this more widely known through a YouTube video but I just hope it gets more than 20 views!
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Meanwhile, on the Curtis Judd YouTube channel where he reviewed these devices, I have gone on at some length about the whole subject of single vs dual converters, and Mr Judd has very kindly taken the trouble to respond to a number of my comments in some depth. Worth a read. He like me feels that manufacturers should come clean on the number of a/d converters that their 32 bit float devices use, to avoid customer confusion.
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I will paste here an exchange with a Tascam "Product Specialist" in the comments section of the YouTube video about the DR-07XP uploaded by the company. It's staggering. I doubt very much that I will ever purchase a Tascam product again if this is the state of the company. Not that I was planning to.
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@Ozpeter
3 days ago (edited)
You don't mention dual A/D converters for the 32 bit float audio. Without dual converters, 24 bit audio is being written as-is into a 32 bit float container, so the dynamic range isn't being extended. Can you comment? Does it have dual converters but they are not mentioned perhaps?
@TASCAMUSA
2 days ago
32-bit float recording is only possible with dual ADC. So, the DR-XP recorders feature dual ADC.
@TASCAMUSA Thanks. Your specs should claim it though as confusion is arising in this area due to another company saying that they use single converters. Somehow.
@TASCAMUSA This whole matter of very disturbing. Tascam's marketing people, who presumably are the ones answering questions here, made the assumption that this device has a full implementation of 32 bit float recording using dual ADC's, thus gaining the benefit of that hitherto standard implementation. Purchasers and reviewers will be doing the same. But Tascam have now admitted to me that their engineering department state that DR-07XP/DR-05XP are SINGLE ADC. This fact should be made clear in the published specifications for the device. Otherwise consumers are in danger of being misled. And that's not something that a reputable company like Tascam should be doing.
@Ozpeter hello. This is not marketing - I'm the Product Specialist. My job is to know every TASCAM product inside and out, better than anybody else in the company. I'm curious as to who you spoke to? I can't seem to find any phone or email records of you reaching out to us?
I'm sure you know this already, but 32-bit float can only be achieved by using TWO ADC chips. There is literally no other way to do it. So, when I tell you this recorder has two ADC chips and records in 32-bit float, believe it.
@TASCAMUSA
4 hours ago
@Ozpeter Also, you don't have to copy and paste your responses to multiple videos. The one will do from here on out.
@Ozpeter
19 minutes ago
@TASCAMUSA Firstly, here is a paste of the email I received. It is a matter of concern that Tascam employees cannot agree on this basic question.
Custser (TASCAM USA)
6 Feb 2025, 19:39 GMT+1
Hello Peter,
Our engineering department has sent the following information...
DR-07XP/DR-05XP are SINGLE ADC.
Thank you for your interest in TASCAM products."
Note the emphasis on the word 'single' which is pasted as-is from the email. I look forward to your clarification.
As for whether a single ADC can create a 32 bit float file, of course it can. And, according to your engineering department, it can. And according to Zoom, it can (if you care to study the user manual for the Zoom H4essential). Any value stored in 24 bits can be expressed in 32 bit float format without loss of data. This is how a DAW takes a 16 bit recording and then processes it using 32 bits or more. Use of dual, or more, ADCs enables a wider dynamic range to be stored as each 24 bit converter processes different levels of the audio. This benefit is not obtained using a single converter.
Lastly, if there is confusion concerning the specification of two of your products, and you have uploaded separate videos about them, presumably on the assumption that purchasers may be interested in one product and not the other, then it is entirely appropriate to ask for clarification about the products, for the benefit of potential purchasers, on their respective videos. However, I will restrict further comment to this video as I suspect that you might delete any further comments from me on the other video.
I look forward to your further comments on this matter, or comments from someone further up the company who might be in a position to address the confusion between the company's product specialist and the company's engineering department, which is not good for the company's reputation. Neither is the tone of your responses."
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Let's see what their response is to that. And if they start deleting stuff, too late, it's all here!
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Unless it's YouTube playing up - possible - it appears that they have deleted my most recent comment. Whatever. I am now dealing with the matter by email quoting the entire exchange (including my missing most recent comment) and asking why different branches of the company are giving different answers to a simple question.
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@TASCAMUSA
2 days ago
32-bit float recording is only possible with dual ADC. So, the DR-XP recorders feature dual ADC.
This is demonstrably false. See this link (https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/docs/programmable/813968/24-1/fixed-point-to-32-bit-floating-point.html), for instance, from a pretty trustworthy source. Both of the examples given show the conversion of 20-bit samples to 32-bit floating point. It's just math...
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Thanks to everyone trying to get straight answers about this recorder. Peter, maybe you can share this thread with them and they can clear everything up here. Other manufactures have come here before.
It doesn't seem like most folks here are interested in this recorder. Too bad the company didn't (yet) come out with a Tascam DR-100mkIV or like product. Maybe their answer to that is the FR-AV2...
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Maybe their answer to that is the FR-AV2...
No built-in mics. Clumsy shape for the pocket.
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Thanks to everyone trying to get straight answers about this recorder. Peter, maybe you can share this thread with them and they can clear everything up here. Other manufactures have come here before.
It doesn't seem like most folks here are interested in this recorder. Too bad the company didn't (yet) come out with a Tascam DR-100mkIV or like product. Maybe their answer to that is the FR-AV2...
I think I will wait for their next round of responses, after the weekend is over in the USA, and then see how to proceed from there. As I think I said earlier (or not!), I am actively thinking of putting up a YouTube video explaining my concern that the whole 32 bit float thing is being taken advantage of (at the bottom of the market at least) by companies quietly saying nothing about the use, or not, of single converters. Such converters won't of course lead to any degradation of the original 24 bit data, but they will not offer the usual benefits of increasing the dynamic range of audio converted to the digital domain. Of course the whole 32 bit float thing is the subject of a lot of individual views, fine, but my concern is simply the dodgy marketing and the damage to the reputation of 32 bit float audio - for those who do find it beneficial.
As for lack of interest in this product - well, it's a fairly minor upgrade to the previous models, but it enables them to say "32 bit float". There's a fair bit of choice in this bracket from eg, Zoom. Sony, what are you doing next? Maybe Tascam or Sony will come up withmic-equipped devices further up the cost and quality scale. And with actual dual converters. Personally I continue to plug the Zoom M2 (and M3) devices as being 32 bit float dual converter recorders equipped with decent mics (at the price) and able to handle large SPL (135db), but admittedly they are not suitable for stealth. At all.
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@Ozpeter
I kind of lost track. How was it, did your new Zoom H1 XLR have dual converters?
By the way. I notice that Zoom M4 MicTrack (the model with build in mics and 2xXLR) is less than 22,000 Yen on the Japanese price compare portal Kakaku.co.jp.
https://kakaku.com/item/K0001498244/
With the current Yen rate, that is amazingly low for a recorder that claims to share the Zoom F series preamps.
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How does the Portacapture X8 fit into this conversation? It has floating 32 bit as well. Melanie and I bought one in December so we can mix both soundboards and audience mics both live and in post productions where mics and soundboards cannot be in the same locations. haven't been able to pull it off live but have synced and mixed one show (a Pink Floyd tribute band) and will be mixing a Los Lobos soundboard with Shoeps 4vs that we recorded last week with shoeps in the middle of venue with soundboard from back of facility (you know, where the "noisy "folks hang out). I'll be posting review of product as soon as we can pull off a mix right at the board instead of syncing Dr40 (mics) with DR100mklll (board feed) So far though we are really impressed with the X8. Bob
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@Ozpeter
I kind of lost track. How was it, did your new Zoom H1 XLR have dual converters?
By the way. I notice that Zoom M4 MicTrack (the model with build in mics and 2xXLR) is less than 22,000 Yen on the Japanese price compare portal Kakaku.co.jp.
https://kakaku.com/item/K0001498244/
With the current Yen rate, that is amazingly low for a recorder that claims to share the Zoom F series preamps.
Yes, the H1 XLR claims dual converters and I have no reason to doubt it. It may be the cheapest way to record from a 3.5mm source to 32 bit float using dual converters.
Indeed, the M4 could be good for some purposes if you don't mind the physical format. The M series had a disasterous start as they (M2 and M4, maybe not M3) were released with a serious radio pickup fault and were canned in YouTube reviews, then withdrawn by the company. The current ones have been fixed but the bad reviews are still up - possibly leading to price reductions.
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How does the Portacapture X8 fit into this conversation? It has floating 32 bit as well. Melanie and I bought one in December so we can mix both soundboards and audience mics both live and in post productions where mics and soundboards cannot be in the same locations. haven't been able to pull it off live but have synced and mixed one show (a Pink Floyd tribute band) and will be mixing a Los Lobos soundboard with Shoeps 4vs that we recorded last week with shoeps in the middle of venue with soundboard from back of facility (you know, where the "noisy "folks hang out). I'll be posting review of product as soon as we can pull off a mix right at the board instead of syncing Dr40 (mics) with DR100mklll (board feed) So far though we are really impressed with the X8. Bob
Tascam states unequivocally in their publicity that it has dual ADC and I don't doubt it.
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How does the Portacapture X8 fit into this conversation? It has floating 32 bit as well. Melanie and I bought one in December so we can mix both soundboards and audience mics both live and in post productions where mics and soundboards cannot be in the same locations. haven't been able to pull it off live but have synced and mixed one show (a Pink Floyd tribute band) and will be mixing a Los Lobos soundboard with Shoeps 4vs that we recorded last week with shoeps in the middle of venue with soundboard from back of facility (you know, where the "noisy "folks hang out). I'll be posting review of product as soon as we can pull off a mix right at the board instead of syncing Dr40 (mics) with DR100mklll (board feed) So far though we are really impressed with the X8. Bob
Tascam states unequivocally in their publicity that it has dual ADC and I don't doubt it.
And just to link it here as well (also in the FR-AV2 thread), this is the page to the Tascam pre-amp product page:
https://tascam.com/us/contents/mic_preamp
FR-av2 has Ultra HDDA, while the portacaptures have HDDA.
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Just for the record - Tascam have now deleted their previous two responses from the YouTube comments on their advert for the DR-07XP and this is now their admission that it's a single ADC device -
"@ Hello! 32-bit float point recording and Dual ADC technologies do not necessarily go hand in hand. Dual ADCs give a far superior dynamic range, sure. But with a single ADC, 32-bit float recording is still possible and the clip gain can still be adjusted as such without any degradation. The only real difference between one or two ADCs is the disparity in dynamic range."
This was followed very quickly by this excellent comment by 'Rairun1' -
"@Rairun1
56 minutes ago (edited)
@TASCAMUSA Two points:
(1) For the record, you have argued differently in a very combative tone, and now - after admitting we were right - you've deleted your previous responses.
(2) The problem with using a single ADC is that, as far as I am aware, there are no native 32-bit converters on the market - you're still using a 24-bit ADC and then packaging the resulting data into a 32-bit float file. This 24-bit ADC can and will still clip, so you must have set a fairly conservative fixed gain level to avoid this, which in turn means a worse S/N ratio when you're recording quiet sounds.
The issue here is that your claim that "you'll never need to worry about setting input levels" is only a good thing if you're using a dual ADC setup! With more than one ADC, it makes complete sense - the signal path with higher gain clips, but the other one doesn't, so you can combine the best of both. But since here you only have ONE signal path, the fixed gain is certainly going to be less than ideal in a wide range of situations?
In other words, please tell me how exactly this is better than buying a 24-bit device and setting input levels very conservatively? You will never clip if you do this, and you will still have the option to increase gain if you're trying to capture very quiet sounds with as little noise as possible. With this recorder, all you're doing is taking this option away and hiding behind "32-bit float" marketing buzzwords. No wonder all third-party samples and reviews on youtube right now show an incredible amount of hiss for this device. "
I am debating whether to add anything myself at this point, as it's all been said. What is now totally clear is that 32 bit float recorders with single ADC are now being marketed without mentioning that they are not dual converter devices. Given the confusion within Tascam itself, consumers are even more likely to get confused. The companies need to specify the number of converters in their adverts and specs to avoid that confusion and to avoid the need to pester them for the information.
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Tascam should issue a DR100mkIV that is the FR-AV2 in a handheld format, with the same Ultra HDDA preamps, 32-bit float, Dual ADC etc., along with good built-in mics and the DR100mkIII’s digital input. That would be a terrific field recorder.
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Tascam should issue a DR100mkIV that is the FR-AV2 in a handheld format, with the same Ultra HDDA preamps, 32-bit float, Dual ADC etc., along with good built-in mics and the DR100mkIII’s digital input. That would be a terrific field recorder.
I would so buy that.
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interested in these units. i have some old 2004ish Sonic Studio DSM-6 mics. my old recorder bit the dust. been out of the taping scene for over a decade or so and want to get back in the game im wondering if ill need to use the provided sonic mic power supply or if ill be able to use the tascam "mic on" feature to power the mics? just trying to eliminate as much bulk in my pocket as possible. ill be mostly recording reggae shows outdoors and indoors which usually have a lot of bass. i have an old sound professional preamp with bass rolloff and a gain button i set low cut off at 160hz. worked great back in the day for raising levels. and flawless recordings at hollywood bowl. wondering if that will be needed to raise levels on the tascam device or will the internal preamp suffice?
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I have a dr07xp for quick and dirty point and shoot and for use with iphone.
Ran a simple test on 32bit float setting, just a loud 1kHz sine wave on the internal mic; the levelmeter said +41dB …
Then import the .wav in reaper, it shows clipped, lower item volume until no more visible clipping and it shows and plays an unclipped (!) 1kHz tone.
Interesting …..